.
Logical? Really?
Sorry but you haven’t.
Last year I bought a new lorry, my three top priorities were cost of ownership, cost of ownership and cost of ownership.
I wanted good mpg and reliability, my operation involves running at up to 63.5tons in the flat lands or running at up to 40t in the mountains.
I chose a 455hp for this, I could’ve had 600hp for a few dollars more, I could’ve had a bigger cab and lots of shiny stuff, but my priority is to make money from my business, so I bought what I did…
A modern day gaffer’s wagon and it’s doing exactly what it says on the tin.
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Geoffrey, I haven’t missed the point, you don’t actually have a point.
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Carryfast ,
You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with Gardner engines for some reason .
You appear to seek out their mention in thread after thread , then get on your soapbox & start telling us over & over about backward thinking operators continuing to use them etc ,etc , etc interspersed with repetition of ■■■■■■■ , Detroit Diesel etc , & this is often to the detriment of the original thread .
The same old , same old & you repeat it ad infinitum in thread after thread .
This continual repetition certainly does not grow on you & does not make it any easier to take .
It would make a pleasant change to see some posts from you which make worthwhile additions to the thread , instead of banging the same old tune from the same old drum .
in rush green there was 2 now one. the other has gone to be restored 1963… 8 wheeler ERF s on full air suspension disc brakes
an all aluminum cab
with all light weight aluminum mudguards and a light weight chassis it has round holes to save weight…
90 % of drivers and many owners never knew about them.
i worked for a firm who had a disc break 8 legger it was nt ERF to blame for its demise it was the ferodo that wore out to easy
what a break through…it was nt another truck firm who finally got it right…like some Sweede…it was an airline company then
the others could follow what ERF almost managed years ago.
someone said about ERF going down the pan in when 2005…just think on, who really own all the yankie manufacturers…well one is a
French firm i believe and that was before ERF was taken over…
so thinking on ERF out lasted the yanks with there big ■■■■■■■■ engines in reality its just the someone has forgotten European and
Japanese money been spent in the states
so i was wrong it was in 1990 that Renault bailed Mack out long before ERF was sold…and now Volvo own the lot…what was the bosses
at Mack thinking of…the Sweeds will never beat our outdate maxidine engine ooooerrrrr they have done with a 2 billion dollar buy out
America here comes Volvo they did it in Britain and now they ll do it in the USA…
John, you’re not wrong, Freightliner and Western Star owned by Daimler AG, Volvo own Volvo (obviously) and Mack, Peterbilt and Kenworth now powered by Daf engines, although still available with ■■■■■■■ for those stuck in the dark ages.
Ironic really when Carryfast is always banging on about the American way of doing things.
Especially if you have real world experience of American iron, it really is junk, now that’s not to say I never enjoyed driving it, I absolutely loved my big powerful noisy shiny Peterbilt, but when it came to putting my hand in my pocket a big powerful noisy shiny Peterbilt never even made it onto my wish list. My plan was to make money, not have the best looking truck in the truckstop.
Casual Observer:
Carryfast ,
You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with Gardner engines for some reason .
You appear to seek out their mention in thread after thread , then get on your soapbox & start telling us over & over about backward thinking operators continuing to use them etc ,etc , etc interspersed with repetition of ■■■■■■■ , Detroit Diesel etc , & this is often to the detriment of the original thread .
The same old , same old & you repeat it ad infinitum in thread after thread .This continual repetition certainly does not grow on you & does not make it any easier to take .
It would make a pleasant change to see some posts from you which make worthwhile additions to the thread , instead of banging the same old tune from the same old drum .
Ironically in this case you’re right I should have saved myself the trouble.Because for once to their great credit all of the buyers of the vehicle in question obviously agreed with me and had actually answered Anorak’s question for me. 
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Carryfast, you will relentlessly pelt out this diatribe for the rest of eternity, that has become abundantly clear in over 12’000 posts.
On a personal level, I have to say that I do actually find it quite offensive that you brand some of the very best individuals in UK road haulage, good friends of mine, with terms like ‘backward’s thinkers’ and ‘Luddites’, which is so very far from the truth.
As I’ve said before, these were (are) good men, well respected by their drivers and everyone else in the haulage industry. Men who bought many Gardner powered trucks and based that choice on pure economic reasoning, made a great deal of money with them, and still sing the praises of those trucks today. Many are still in haulage, with very large fleets of the very latest 500hp trucks, but still recognise the part that those Gardner engines played in getting their businesses to where they are today.
As I’ve also said before (and if you can endlessly repeat yourself, so can I…) the memory and legacy of the brilliant individuals in our transport history, like Hugh Gardner, Jack Cooke, Alan Turner, Eric Green and so many many more, deserve better than your continual ridicule of their life’s work.
Nothing anyone can ever say will ever change your distorted views. You will not absorb information from the very people who were there, so we have nowhere else to go. Drop it, please, and let us move on…
3300John:
in rush green there was 2 now one. the other has gone to be restored 1963… 8 wheeler ERF s on full air suspension disc brakes
an all aluminum cab
with all light weight aluminum mudguards and a light weight chassis it has round holes to save weight…
90 % of drivers and many owners never knew about them…
I’m pleased to say they have both been saved now John, by the same man.
One still had the Roll B81 petrol engine, and he is intending to restore one lorry from the two.
Carryfast:
newmercman:
Geoffrey, I haven’t missed the point, you don’t actually have a point.Yes I do…
No you don’t. 
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And all 40 years ago…! Robert
robert1952:
You make an excellent case for the ERF NGC as a ‘Jack of all trades unit’ for Europe in the 1970s and I actually sympathise with some of your arguments. However, you do keep blowing out the candles of other players in the field in order to make the candle of the ERF NGC appear to shine brighter: and that is precisely where your arguments lose credibility. Reading these threads it is apparent that pretty well everyone you have engaged with would agree that the ERF NGC was an excellent Euro-truck (provided that it had good back-up) but nobody wants to hear of their other favourite truck manufacturers trashed to make room for the argument. This isn’t ‘either /or’; it’s not even ‘both’: it’s a multiple choice horses-for-courses discussion in which there should, at the end of the day, be several winners. Your favourite choice happens to be the ERF NGC, crude though it was. It also happens to be my tool of choice, but I drove far too much of the opposition to dare trash them. In three-and-a-half thousand posts I doubt if I’ve ever mentioned the Rolls Royce 365 but hey, stick one in an a B-series ERF along with a 9-speed Fuller and I’d drive one anywhere - and did! Robert
I thought that I’d made it clear that the NGC was never what I ‘would’ have chosen as ‘my favourite choice’ in the day.As I’ve said that would probably have been the TM ( in 8v92 spec ).Therefore I don’t think that I’ve trashed any of the ‘credible’ alternatives either foreign or domestic with the 2800 being on my list too.
The only thing I’ve ‘trashed’ or questioned is what could arguably,reasonably,be viewed as flawed or obsolete specs by the engineering standards of the day with the NGC being just ( one of ) the trend setters in moving forward in that regard.I see nothing wrong in suggesting that ERF,like many others,did itself no favours by offering the Gardner engine option when the thing was way past its sell by date.Or not rationalising its engine and cab options,to reflect the fact that the turbocharged ■■■■■■■ ( or Rolls ) and the all metal cab formula,in the most up to date form,were the way forward for the firm from the early 1970’s on.If anyone really takes offence at that idea then that isn’t really my problem.
In terms of cab structure ERF were years ahead of the game with the steel frame and SMC panel combination on the B series.
For a low volume assembler it allowed them to create their own identity, rather than buying in a cab and kept costs down meaning more profit and benefitted the end user in light weight and lack of corrosion.
On another note, I’ve never been a fan of ERFs, but thanks to the many threads started by Robert I’m now intrigued by them and the information put on them from the contributors. I have a new found respect for the brand.
I would also like to expand on the insanity from dear old Carryfast and mention the Detroit Diesel engine, which was offered in ERF chassis in later years in sensible four stroke in line configuration.
Today I learned that the series 60 engine, which is rated as one of, if not the best diesel engine ever produced was actually designed by a ■■■■■■■ man for John Deere.
Now we knew about the John Deere connection, but not that it was a ■■■■■■■ design. Initially it was to be the replacement for the N14, which due to its pushrod design was unable to work with the very high injection pressures required to get emission levels down. Thanks to electronics ■■■■■■■ were able to keep the N14 going for a few more years and sold the design to John Deere, who sold it to Penske, who sold it to Detroit Diesel.
The N14 continued until ■■■■■■■ replaced it with the overhead cam ISX, but the N14 and its predecessor the E14 still retains the title of the longest in service life of a diesel engine, with many reaching 2 million miles on the original pistons and liners.
So it would have been possible for an NGC to still be running now after its first rebuild 25yrs or so into its working life.
No - it’s seems we can’t move on and back to 5MW’s then.
Carryfast:
I thought that I’d made it clear that the NGC was never what I ‘would’ have chosen as ‘my favourite choice’ in the day. As I’ve said that would probably have been the TM ( in 8v92 spec ).…
And you have evidence from fleet operators who ran these in large number who testify to their superiority do you?.
If so, fair enough Carryfast, point well made and taken on board by us all.
I know a fleet that had four Detroit powered TM’s, and that fleet manager will still tell you today exactly what he thought of them, but each fleet, each job, is different, so these were maybe just not the tool suited to their needs.
Carryfast:
?..ERF,like many others,did itself no favours by offering the Gardner engine option when the thing was way past its sell by date. Or not rationalising its engine and cab options,to reflect the fact that the turbocharged ■■■■■■■ ( or Rolls ) and the all metal cab formula,in the most up to date form,were the way forward for the firm from the early 1970’s on.If anyone really takes offence at that idea then that isn’t really my problem
It’s not your ideas I take offence at, it’s your relentless diatribe.
So, ERF, Foden etc would have been ‘better’ manufacturers in your eyes for withdrawing one of their best selling and in demand specifications for their products, accounting for a large percentage of sales right through the 70’s?. How does that work commercially then?. I can just picture that sales meeting now…
The truth is that ERF, Foden and Seddon Atkinson knew the Gardner engine was being outpaced. They knew there was no outstanding significant development in the pipeline from Gardner, they knew the day would come when the old Gardner WAS totally obsolete in UK haulage, and operators could no longer operate them commercially - but the industry itself makes that call by not ordering them, not the supplier by withdrawing them with a strong order book!. Gardner tried hard at the last minute with their turbo-charged obsolete designs, and the ill fated new 6LYT, but it was too late for them, they had no designer of Hugh Gardner’s calibre at the helm, so in their case, failure of the company was unfortunately inevitable.
Your bubbling enthusiasm for the Motor Panels steel cab in all it’s forms is misplaced.
It had a very short service life like most steel cabs of the era, and steel cabs from all manufacturers gave the likes of ERF (and Foden, Guy, Bedford, Ford and Leyland) a severe headache in the form of warranty claims, one factor in the MP cab being dropped entirely by ERF in 1977, although they did continue to supply pressings for the SP cab frame. I don’t know without asking for the records to be checked (which I don’t want to do at the moment - he deserves a rest) how many 7MW’s received complete new cabs in European service due to severe corrosion, but there were some. That’s why I said earlier, as an all round performer the NGC was proven to NOT be the right product, in the right place, at the right time. If it had been, sales would still prove it today.
ERF:
3300John:
in rush green there was 2 now one. the other has gone to be restored 1963… 8 wheeler ERF s on full air suspension disc brakes
an all aluminum cab
with all light weight aluminum mudguards and a light weight chassis it has round holes to save weight…
90 % of drivers and many owners never knew about them…I’m pleased to say they have both been saved now John, by the same man.
One still had the Roll B81 petrol engine, and he is intending to restore one lorry from the two.
Thats really good news i knew one had gone. when i saw the Gardner one the inspection plate on top of the gearbox had rotted
through with standing thats a sorryful thing as there are not many DB boxes left around and that one would be full of rainwater.
3300John:
ERF:
3300John:
in rush green there was 2 now one. the other has gone to be restored 1963… 8 wheeler ERF s on full air suspension disc brakes
an all aluminum cab
with all light weight aluminum mudguards and a light weight chassis it has round holes to save weight…
90 % of drivers and many owners never knew about them…I’m pleased to say they have both been saved now John, by the same man.
One still had the Roll B81 petrol engine, and he is intending to restore one lorry from the two.Thats really good news i knew one had gone. when i saw the Gardner one the inspection plate on top of the gearbox had rotted
through with standing thats a sorryful thing as there are not many DB boxes left around and that one would be full of rainwater.
That’s right, it was a strange DB gearbox in the petrol engined one, a five speed synchromesh used mainly in busses apparently. The top had rotted through on that one too, and it’s a rare gearbox.
We found the original Rolls petrol engine and gearbox from the one with the Gardner too, Rush Green did the swap to make it more saleable, but still nobody bought it, put off by the disc brakes and rubber rear suspension I would think.
The original engine and box ended up inside a curtain sider. They are better preserved, so hopefully there will be enough bits to build one lorry up as it originally left Sandbach.
He is still looking for a suitable Alfred Miles tank for it, if you ever see one.
