'reasonable overtime'

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1

I can see an issue coming to the fore in the not too distant future. A couple of new managers vying for a higher management position, neither have the knowledge or experience to run transport (nothing new there then!) add to that some spineless 'planners and drivers.

Job is (should be) straight forward enough, union caved in for the previous manager changing our hours from 40 to 42.5 hrs a week for no benefit whatsoever other than union recognition which means that the reps will roll over whilst their tummies are tickled and having their nuts chopped off at the same time.

Over the last couple of weeks ‘planning’ has basically added an extra job a day meaning that some of us are now clearly planned to do overtime, 1-3 hours a day and more often than not the work without the added extra takes us into overtime (the way it always has been) and unable to do that added extra as sites will be closed.

One of the wannabe bigger boss has the attitude ‘well you’re getting paid for it’, his competitor is highlighting the 48 week average and saying that any driver that thinks a wait will be over 15 mins to use POA.

So, has anyone been down the ‘reasonable overtime’ disciplinary route? An hour most days I don’t mind, 2 hours one day and a couple of ‘on time’ finishes to balance it out is fine, but 2/3 hours a day certainly isn’t, no life balance, no bloody sleep! I’ll move on if I have to, but it would be preferable to stick 2 fingers up to both of them, neither will last more than a couple of years, I just want to see out my last 10 without too much hassle.

2

You’re a lorry driver, reasonable overtime is anything that is legal to do. Your contract of employment will state about doing any reasonable request and being asked to work the hours you legally can is reasonable.

The average working week in haulage is 55hrs. If you wanted a 40hr job and to know when you’ll be finishing then you don’t want to be in haulage because even places like builders merchants do the thick end of 50hrs a week and it’s a job where things go wrong which will take you over. If you want to only work that your best bet is signing up with agencies and only choosing 3-4 days work a week.

Over the next year it’s going to get worse because as work increases employers will want to keep costs down so will get the same number of people doing more instead of hiring more drivers and lorries to do the extra.

3

The question I’m asking is whether anyone has pushed it far enough to define ‘reasonable’, best I’ve managed myself is 2 final written warnings within a few weeks for the same thing that no manager was willing to push for dismissal as chances are come a tribunal I’d have won.

If I wanted to work 50+ hours a week I’d have gone somewhere where it was commonplace/ expected and also paid a worthwhile rate for doing so.

I’m quite happy to push all the way to a tribunal with these current muppets, if they’ve got the ■■■■■■■■ (which they haven’t) for a clear, legal definition of reasonable. Would save a bit of time and effort if someone has already been down that route and got that definition.

If you’re willing to do 70+ hour weeks using POA every time you stop at traffic lights then great, what a hero you are!

4

Conor:
You’re a lorry driver If you want to only work that your best bet is signing up with agencies and only choosing 3-4 days work a week.

Over the next year it’s going to get worse because as work increases employers will want to keep costs down so will get the same number of people doing more instead of hiring more drivers to do the extra.

The oxymoron is clear here. :unamused: :laughing:

5

Vid:
The question I’m asking is whether anyone has pushed it far enough to define ‘reasonable’, best I’ve managed myself is 2 final written warnings within a few weeks for the same thing that no manager was willing to push for dismissal as chances are come a tribunal I’d have won.

If I wanted to work 50+ hours a week I’d have gone somewhere where it was commonplace/ expected and also paid a worthwhile rate for doing so.

I’m quite happy to push all the way to a tribunal with these current muppets, if they’ve got the ■■■■■■■■ (which they haven’t) for a clear, legal definition of reasonable. Would save a bit of time and effort if someone has already been down that route and got that definition.

If you’re willing to do 70+ hour weeks using POA every time you stop at traffic lights then great, what a hero you are!

It’s not as simple and black and white as winning an unfair dismissal claim.
Your next job is going to ask the question why did you leave your previous employers and to provide a contact reference regardless.

Much better and nothing to lose by stopping at a ‘reasonable’ time for work life balance ( 12 hours ? ) then if they still want to make an argument of it after that go for it.Not much to lose at that point.Enforced overtime over the 12 hour shift mark is going to be untenable and intolerable anyway.

6

Other than 3 slack weeks I do between 4/6 hrs per day mon fri extra , I refuse to work a extra shift , sat / sun , if I have to run in sat ( very rarely now ) I will only do the 1/2 hrs direct to the yard , my answer has always been the same , 70 hrs out mon - fri is more than enough for me
All I get is txts telling me how much extra work they have , will I please help them out etc etc ( I guess these txts go to all drivers )
So in the week I do more than I really want to , but that’s your lot ,
Nb interesting the union bit , as all we hear on here is the only good jobs are unionised

7

If you only wanna work 40hrs a week in transport then get a job working Monday- Wednesday

8

peirre:
If you only wanna work 40hrs a week in transport then get a job working Monday- Wednesday

Oh, I can pssst you in on a 30 hour per week job in transport, mon-fri.

9

A bit of a tip pal, grab whatever is going for the next year at least, as you are going to need it :wink:

10

In the wrong job I reckon…

The irony of you going on about other drivers being spineless, when you just can’t say no is a joy to behold.

11

Transport is not a 40hour job. 40 hours is 3 and half days for me. The ones who have said over the years they dont do extra are still on furlough. With notice of redundancy now they are panicking. If its available and legal do it not like they want you to do an extra day

12

Say"upto 60"in my contract.
However,there’s enough volunteers to cover the bulk of it.
Was asked to cover a Sunday shunting shift,a few weeks ago…and for only the second time in my life,worked a sabbath.

13

Its not a case of being forced to work 70 hours, places that operated on sensible hours don’t suddenly morph into such they were and are always like that.

There are still some decent jobs out there where the company cares about its record its standing and reputation in the community and yes about its staff, the answer as always is to find such a job and then do your very best for that company so both you and the company prosper for as long as possible.

You might still have to work the odd long day when things go pear shaped or work/staffing levels are out of kilter, the recent furlough (economic disaster yet to be realised) and self isolating periods cases in point, thsi applies especially if your job isn’t one that can be performed by any bod they just pull in off the street for a shift.

Being ‘reasonable’ always has and always will be a two way street.

14

This whole thing about just because it’s legal it’s therefore reasonable is rubbish. Most drivers contracts do state in black and white that words to the effect of some overtime and flexibility is expected. Unless they actually put a number on that in black and white then they haven’t got a leg to stand on at an employment tribunal. “Some” is woolly. So if your contract is 42.5 hours and you work 50 hours that week then you have fulfilled your contractual obligation to be flexible and do some overtime. Unless your contract says in black and white you are signing here that you will do up to 70 hours or whatever rubbish the legal maximum could possibly be, then simple you don’t have to.

They don’t like it? Go to the doctor and claim your being caused undue stress and it’s causing you anxiety, get a doctors note which says this person needs regular hours up to a maximum of X for medical reasons. Nothing they can come back with to that and can’t sack for it.

15

Juddian:
Its not a case of being forced to work 70 hours, places that operated on sensible hours don’t suddenly morph into such they were and are always like that.

There are still some decent jobs out there where the company cares about its record its standing and reputation in the community and yes about its staff, the answer as always is to find such a job and then do your very best for that company so both you and the company prosper for as long as possible.

You might still have to work the odd long day when things go pear shaped or work/staffing levels are out of kilter, the recent furlough (economic disaster yet to be realised) and self isolating periods cases in point, thsi applies especially if your job isn’t one that can be performed by any bod they just pull in off the street for a shift.

Being ‘reasonable’ always has and always will be a two way street.

^^^^^^^ This 100%
On the contrary to the popular believe that lorry driving is a long hours job, there are firms that are modern and forward and have hours that are in line with the modern era. When you find these companies it pays to play a straight wicket to ensure its stays a decent job.

16

Conor:
You’re a lorry driver, reasonable overtime is anything that is legal to do.

Utter rubbish. Normal working hours are 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. More than that on a regular basis is “long hours”, and in the first place the employer should manage the permanent need for overtime through volunteers or additional staff.

Your contract of employment will state about doing any reasonable request and being asked to work the hours you legally can is reasonable.

The employment contract may state any reasonable requests, but that just begs the very question of what is reasonable.

The average working week in haulage is 55hrs. If you wanted a 40hr job and to know when you’ll be finishing then you don’t want to be in haulage

Except he is in haulage, and thus far has been happy with his hours.

because even places like builders merchants do the thick end of 50hrs a week and it’s a job where things go wrong which will take you over.

And the vagaries of events is why the job has tended to be longer than 8 hours a day on average. The question here is not of things going wrong, but of bosses intentionally ramping up hours and adding work.

If you want to only work that your best bet is signing up with agencies and only choosing 3-4 days work a week.

Or to maintain the established reasonable hours of his permanent, 5-day-a-week job.

Over the next year it’s going to get worse because as work increases employers will want to keep costs down so will get the same number of people doing more instead of hiring more drivers and lorries to do the extra.

And workers should resist this for two reasons. The first is solidaristic and to do with ensuring all drivers have some of the available work to support themselves.

The second is pure self-interest, because if you allow unemployment to soar amongst drivers, then all that will happen is that the guys who are starving and wanting work will drive your pay and conditions down to as little as the law will allow the employers to get away with.

17

Most drivers I know,would jack,if they were only getting 8 hours a day.

Top line is all they see.

18

Did you attend the union meetings when this agreement was made, recognition is a big issue if you don,t have it you,ve got no chance with these managers, that was the time to have your say and voice your opposition to the agreement. To many workers moan about unions but can,t be bothered to attend meetings and get involved. Have achat to other drivers and all go to the next branch meeting and have your say, the members decide what happens, at least the management recognise the union so there is a basis for discussion. You will get nothing done moaning on a forum page. Make the union work for your benefit as much as possible.

19

commonrail:
Most drivers I know,would jack,if they were only getting 8 hours a day. Top line is all they see.

I know, they get shafted on the rate for the first eight, so they give the employer another five again for plain time.

Still, if the OP’s employer is in that position, then they should have no problem attracting volunteers for the overtime.

20

I’ve been down the disciplinary route refusing a 12hr run. My day is 8.45hrs and I’ve told them various times that my reasonable planned o/t is 15mins. My argument was that’s what I feel reasonable to me personally because one day from the next I commit to hours and hours of unplanned o/t. I don’t know what I’m going to encounter on shift. That could be a break down, major road closure, freak weather. So on those days I get the drops off and the lorry back. So that is my commitment to the cause. I also do the odd day extra here and there. So for me I’ve done my little bit. I have a good home life and it is important that my job be as normal as possible time wise. My days of doing 15hrs,14hrs or 13hrs is long behind me. I’m on decent money so I can afford that luxury. We have plenty of drivers that love the extra money, plan them in not me.