With regards to ‘‘if any wait is going to be more than 15 minutes put it on POA’’’ Ask them to put it in writing 
i believe to ‘‘legally’’ use POA you should know about the delay in advance, and the duration of the delay, for example you are booked in at 2pm you get there at 1pm they wont tip you until 2pm, you can use POA. Then you could always opt back in to the 17 week reference period for 48 hour average working time of the wtd 
For the record, most overtime worked in one week - 45 hours, which included a 25 hour day, start at 6am, finish at 7am next day, ropes and sheets off, park by loading bay, go home, back in at 2pm for a 6am finish the next day. Also most weeks were 7 day weeks, although most Saturdays and Sundays were an early finish, usually by 1pm. Job no longer exists anything like it was (surprise!).
Done the sleeping in a metal box, maxed the 15s and 9s to suit myself, I routed it myself so usually built in a 12-14 hour break somewhere in the week. Got the job done, from 1 driver (me) to 17 in a few years, so I was left to get on with it. Firm went bust a year or so after I left following a ‘management buyout’.
Done the mutli-drop, could carve up most routes when job and knock, then a ■■■■■■■■ of a manager decided that ‘as we’re paying you for 48 hours you have to do 48 hours’ and messed around with the routes, drops and timings to ensure ensure he got his moneys worth. Job no longer exists as his changes made deliveries too unreliable.
A couple of stints on agency, it was great, time off when you want it, in some places and circumstances you could double what the regular drivers were getting just for driving stuff around the country. Unfortunately got offered this job (so no need for references, CVs etc.) and the missus wanted the ‘stability’ that it offered, been regretting it ever since. More hours, less money, more hassles, I was much better off doing 4 days a week than I am now. Anyone know a good divorce solicitor■■?
Currently there is a 3 way power battle for manager supremacy, none of it is about a better service to the customer, cost savings or anything else, just 3 complete knobs that should be nowhere near the jobs that they have trying to move up a notch at everyone else’s expense.
Oh yeah, the manager advocating the 15 min POA has actually put it in writing, never come across someone stupid enough to put something like that in writing before. Whilst one of his competitors was off on holiday he decided to have meeting at our depot, towards the end I chucked in a question about what he thought about the regulation changes on the 20th, he said nothing had been flagged by whatever group he subscribed to (FTA perhaps) nothing really applicable to what we do, but certainly to what he did previously and could potentially do in the future. Nice to have a TM totally up to date on legislation!
Conor:
If you wanted a 40hr job and to know when you’ll be finishing then you don’t want to be in haulage
+1
Despite my aversion to sleeping bags and unplanned nights out, ive always said if you want guarenteed hours and a guarenteed finish time then youre in the wrong job
The-Snowman:
Conor:
If you wanted a 40hr job and to know when you’ll be finishing then you don’t want to be in haulage+1
Despite my aversion to sleeping bags and unplanned nights out, ive always said if you want guarenteed hours and a guarenteed finish time then youre in the wrong job
Nothing said about guaranteed finish times, just what constitutes reasonable overtime. Done a 17 hours in this job and back in 8 hours later, not shown on the tacho of course. The job should involve give and take, but if one side decides to be all about taking and no giving as new managers try to show just how big their ■■■■■■■■ are (or not) then what defines ‘reasonable’?
Your not saying what type of work your doing,ie general, contracted,or in house.
General and 3rd party contract its hours thats needed,in house it usually depends on T&Cs and agreements.
My last job was schedules in line with T&Cs some days it was 12 others was less.We did what was scheduled unless you did not want nights out or long days then we swapped with someone who did, there was always plenty of takers. Thats transport industry.if you only want daily basic hours your in the wrong job.
Lots of people saying “you’re in the wrong job”
That may be so, but the basic question is whatever is reasonable overtime to you. If you’re contracted for 9 hours a day, then 2 hours over 3 times a week is reasonable I’d say, For example.
If you don’t have contracted hours, then I think you’re stuffed. Although from what you’re saying about the childish power struggle going on I’d leave anyway. Beasting the little people to get themselves more credit and pay, drop me out.
There’s something niggling in the back of my mind telling me that this question was actually challenged in court many moons ago and it was ascertained that 2 hours overtime per week was deemed a reasonable amount. I may be wrong on that but my cobweb ridden mind keeps telling me that.
As for myself as a tramper I do overtime pretty much daily, BUT, and that’s a big but, it is because I choose to. When an office bod asks me what time I can work to my response is invariably “tell me what time you are finishing tonight and I’ll match it”, also when I’m informed by them that I can take a reduced break my response again is “so can you, ring me from the office 9 hours after your finished and then I’ll take a reduced break”.
My point is I’ll not be dictated to, but being asked is totally different.
Conor:
You’re a lorry driver, reasonable overtime is anything that is legal to do. Your contract of employment will state about doing any reasonable request and being asked to work the hours you legally can is reasonable.The average working week in haulage is 55hrs. If you wanted a 40hr job and to know when you’ll be finishing then you don’t want to be in haulage because even places like builders merchants do the thick end of 50hrs a week.
You’re technically right in the literal sense , and yeh we all knew what we signed up for when we started in this ■■■■ up of an industry, but as for the original question it depends how the individual defines the word ‘reasonable’.
Personally I do not think 15 hour days, and 35ish hours over a 40 is ‘reasonable’, …legal definitely, widely practiced in the job maybe, but reasonable in 2020?..nah.
Me personally I just sat back for a minute and reflected on things a couple years ago, and asked myself wtf have I been doing for most of my life spending most of it away from home working away in a ■■■■ truck 
. I then verified what I already knew…that there is more to life than this crap.
So I knocked Mondays on the head, to Sat morning, but still doing over 60+ hours, so then I cut back further to Wed to Sat on a 4 on/3off pattern, and I feel much better for it doing 50 to 55 hours, depending on ME and what I am ASKED to do.
As I’ve said before, the hours should be cut down to a max of 12 to 12 and a half a day (as they once were 
) with a 60 hour max week, with pay rates adjusted accordingly.
That is enough for anybody, if you NEED to work 75 or so a week, you should check out where you’re going wrong.
It just depends what kind of job you do, if its shops for a supermarket chain you get more shorter days than long. If its hire and reward on general haulage? well them trucks have to be paid for and its such a cut throat business you got to max out your hours, unless the truck is double shifted.
I work on agency and we are told you have to be prepared to work any shift which is legal. We get texts reminding us that if you refuse a 2nd run, your employment at the site may be terminated even if you already done 10hrs.
Haulage has always been a tough life and if you want to earn a good living you wont have much of a life away from work. Take Morrisions, They now going to get Storbarts to do the transport (they didnt win the contract on quality of service) It was done to reduce costs. Drivers will be expected to work longer hours and pushed harder.
elsa Lad:
If its hire and reward on general haulage? well them trucks have to be paid for and its such a cut throat business you got to max out your hours, unless the truck is double shifted.Haulage has always been a tough life .
You’ve listened to your boss and other haulage operators in general too much mate.
I’ve been a one myself, and tbf what you say is true, but …
Why should drivers take it on their backs because operators are putting in and/or accepting rates that are cut to the bone just to get the work?
In other words…‘‘But how do we maintain doing this job at these very poor rates, oh yeh we’ll get blood out of the drivers for just over minimum wage’’
You also get the mantra off the public…‘‘Ooh if driver’s wages go up, prices in the shops will also’’
My answer…Tough ■■■■ !!.., Why should I and other drivers have to subsidise prices, when other workers in other industries are comparatively generally better paid.
Once you start believing co. b/s and their rhetoric, and just accept crap as the ‘norm’ mate, that’s when we are all Rubber Ducked.
robroy:
elsa Lad:
If its hire and reward on general haulage? well them trucks have to be paid for and its such a cut throat business you got to max out your hours, unless the truck is double shifted.Haulage has always been a tough life .
You’ve listened to your boss and other haulage operators in general too much mate.
I’ve been a one myself, and tbf what you say is true, but …
Why should drivers take it on their backs because operators are putting in and/or accepting rates that are cut to the bone just to get the work?
In other words…‘‘But how do we maintain doing this job at these very poor rates, oh yeh we’ll get blood out of the drivers for just over minimum wage’’
Yes I was a operator for 10 years myself until I jacked it in. So I understand both sides. So its not so much of “you’ve listened to your boss” I have been there and worn the tee shirt. Its very hard back 20 years ago, I hate to think how tough it is now.
elsa Lad:
Yes I was a operator for 10 years myself until I jacked it in. So I understand both sides. So its not so much of “you’ve listened to your boss” I have been there and worn the tee shirt. Its very hard back 20 years ago, I hate to think how tough it is now.
Yep I’ve also got that t.shirt, but cut throat job or not, how far does it go before operators say ‘‘Enough is enough, let Stobarts (or whoever) have it if they want it that ■■■■ much’,.and are prepared to work for nothing’
If a job ain’t worth doing, why tf do it…and as I said, if they do choose to do it, why should it be done on the backs of the drivers.
Job needs sorted big style.
robroy:
elsa Lad:
Yes I was a operator for 10 years myself until I jacked it in. So I understand both sides. So its not so much of “you’ve listened to your boss” I have been there and worn the tee shirt. Its very hard back 20 years ago, I hate to think how tough it is now.Yep I’ve also got that t.shirt, but cut throat job or not, how far does it go before operators say ‘‘Enough is enough, let Stobarts (or whoever) have it if they want it that [zb] much’,.and are prepared to work for nothing’
If a job ain’t worth doing, why tf do it…and as I said, if they do choose to do it, why should it be done on the backs of the drivers.
Job needs sorted big style.
Thing is Rob it’s called competition, its everything in life from Tesco screwing the supplier, amazon killing the high street, even McDonalds wiping out the cafes. Everything is done on price, we as a consumer are just as bad as we looking for a bargain and don’t care if the seller makes a profit, we just want to feel smug that we got something for nothing.
Now haulage, if by some shock the customers pay a decent rate, the big boys and now also the investment firms would flood more and more lorries into the market which in turn would flatten the rates once again. You couldn’t by law go back to something like A and B licenses due to its being classed as unfair competition.
There is no easy answer, of course we should work normal week and get a good standard of living but life isn’t fair and I am afraid if you want to work in this industry you got the choice of easy hours and low pay or unsociable long hours with a decent pay packet. Unless you are really lucky and get that cream job.
I moved over to high street deliveries and away from general haulage due to you can earn a decent living with out the pressure. It’s long hours but you are treated pretty good and you home every night, but its brain dead sort of work, you not allowed to think for yourself, you have half a dozen managers for that.
General haulage yes I loved it but I wouldn’t go back to it.
elsa Lad:
Thing is Rob it’s called competition, its everything in life from Tesco screwing the supplier, amazon killing the high street, even McDonalds wiping out the cafes. Everything is done on price, we as a consumer are just as bad as we looking for a bargain and don’t care if the seller makes a profit, we just want to feel smug that we got something for nothing.Now haulage, if by some shock the customers pay a decent rate, the big boys and now also the investment firms would flood more and more lorries into the market which in turn would flatten the rates once again. You couldn’t by law go back to something like A and B licenses due to its being classed as unfair competition.
There is no easy answer, of course we should work normal week and get a good standard of living but life isn’t fair and I am afraid if you want to work in this industry you got the choice of easy hours and low pay or unsociable long hours with a decent pay packet. Unless you are really lucky and get that cream job.
I moved over to high street deliveries and away from general haulage due to you can earn a decent living with out the pressure. It’s long hours but you are treated pretty good and you home every night, but its brain dead sort of work, you not allowed to think for yourself, you have half a dozen managers for that.
General haulage yes I loved it but I wouldn’t go back to it.
Cheers for the lesson on how the concept of business and competition in the marketplace works mate…but I do know all that. 
Not so sure about investors flooding the haulage sector with more trucks, there are already ample, if not far too many hauliers as it is, fighting for the pool of work.
That aside, my point was the economising needed after these firms put in.a non viable rate just to get the work is always directed towards the driver as an employee as a first option.
For a start, all these unnecessary non job up their own arse clowns in suits are never considered, you never hear of ‘‘Compliance executive managers’’ , or ‘‘Personnel supervisors’’, or even the inept types amongst the all to numerous ‘planners’ being on a poor wage, with no increases, or even getting the boot as a cutback, none of these passengers would be missed, even though their wage would go.a long way to subsidise a lot, along with the sale of some of the top range cars they are supplied.
Too many chiefs amongst the few Indians that actually make the business work, as you mention yourself in your ‘half a dozen managers needed’ reference.
I know I’m talking in simplistic terms, I know the above is not the complete answer to the problem, but it would be a starting point to drivers not getting the ■■■■■■ end of the stick for a change… surely you get the principle of my drift.
Answering a couple of questions above;
contracted hours - 42.5 weekly, 8.5 daily - internal work, shifting stuff between the firm’s sites, with a couple of other places to tip on occasion (work I rarely get due to being based out of those areas)
Several sites you can tip and reload, others are load only and some tip only.
My base site is a possible tip and reload, very rarely do we load out at the start of the day, but frequently do have our last load back there, although over the past couple of weeks this has declined.
Mentality of the ‘planners’ - driver X at our site (A) loads to drive to site B to tip, then runs back empty to A to load for B, driver Y drives empty to B to be loaded to tip at A then empty back to B for another load to A. They do 3 such loads each waving to each other as they pass. They could easily both do load at A, tip at B, reload at B, back to A twice and in so doing 4 loads in less time than it takes to do 3. 8 loads for the price of 6 and less overtime.
On Friday I’m looking at the bank holiday weekend traffic building and ring in after my 3rd load saying that I can’t guarantee running back empty to the same site, getting loaded and driving back to where I was before they shut, but as there were at least 4 loads there that could go back to my base depot, wouldn’t it make more sense for me to do that. Told ‘no as that stuff is allocated to subbies’, thought to myself ‘you’re not going to get 4 of them in here in the next 2 hours’. Traffic was kind enough to pick up the load and get tipped 10 mins before the site shut, one load had been taken out by the subbies, that I caught and passed on the way back to my depot and was getting into my car to go home before he’d finished tipping. I could have finished at least an hour earlier if I’d been allowed to switch loads (and incidentally the subbie had driven empty past the site I’d had to go back to to load from).
Empty running has increased a lot over the last few weeks which has resulted in longer days, there has to be a reason why one of these managers wants overtime to go through the roof and less stuff moved due to unrealistic workloads being given out.
Vid:
Answering a couple of questions above;contracted hours - 42.5 weekly, 8.5 daily - internal work, shifting stuff between the firm’s sites, with a couple of other places to tip on occasion (work I rarely get due to being based out of those areas)
Several sites you can tip and reload, others are load only and some tip only.
My base site is a possible tip and reload, very rarely do we load out at the start of the day, but frequently do have our last load back there, although over the past couple of weeks this has declined.
Mentality of the ‘planners’ - driver X at our site (A) loads to drive to site B to tip, then runs back empty to A to load for B, driver Y drives empty to B to be loaded to tip at A then empty back to B for another load to A. They do 3 such loads each waving to each other as they pass. They could easily both do load at A, tip at B, reload at B, back to A twice and in so doing 4 loads in less time than it takes to do 3. 8 loads for the price of 6 and less overtime.
On Friday I’m looking at the bank holiday weekend traffic building and ring in after my 3rd load saying that I can’t guarantee running back empty to the same site, getting loaded and driving back to where I was before they shut, but as there were at least 4 loads there that could go back to my base depot, wouldn’t it make more sense for me to do that. Told ‘no as that stuff is allocated to subbies’, thought to myself ‘you’re not going to get 4 of them in here in the next 2 hours’. Traffic was kind enough to pick up the load and get tipped 10 mins before the site shut, one load had been taken out by the subbies, that I caught and passed on the way back to my depot and was getting into my car to go home before he’d finished tipping. I could have finished at least an hour earlier if I’d been allowed to switch loads (and incidentally the subbie had driven empty past the site I’d had to go back to to load from).
Empty running has increased a lot over the last few weeks which has resulted in longer days, there has to be a reason why one of these managers wants overtime to go through the roof and less stuff moved due to unrealistic workloads being given out.
The answer to your last paragraph is simple.
It’s ineptitude and job incompetence, but for some reason these type of clowns appear to be fire proof.
My lot at local depot level are ok in that respect tbf, they are ex driver and/or guys with a transport background.
merc0447:
I’ve been down the disciplinary route refusing a 12hr run. My day is 8.45hrs and I’ve told them various times that my reasonable planned o/t is 15mins. My argument was that’s what I feel reasonable to me personally.
That’s the difference between union cushioned own account & for profit driving jobs right there.
Try telling a TM at any haulage outfit that 15 mins is reasonable overtime, you would be laughed out & told to get real.