Political discussions...

[zac_a]

@cooper1203

so maybe now people can quit deliberately confusing the two to try and score points for their warped view of brexit.

OED is not behind a paywall, I use it all the time
And your interpretation of the Cambridge definition missed the fact that one specifically states Animals. Animals migrate, which is self evident in countless species. However we do not apply evolutionarily-evolved migration behaviours to humans (we have sentience and will) so we use different terminology: immigration and emigration. Calling either of these “migration” is not correct English and wouldn’t feature in written legal documents designed to enforce rules.

@cooper1203

yet every time a transport company goes bust there is the immortal cry of we couldnt get drivers.
…
your boss tells you you have to employ one of them which would you employ.

I could not care less if the driver takes TEN shunts to get on a bay. As a working ETM that kind of metric is just a urination contest for onanists. I’ll take the driver that can understand what I want. I’ll also argue with the Operator as to which one is best.

FYI as an ETM the Operator is not “my boss”, he’s “my client”.

I also couldn’t give a rat’s derriere if one driver can arrive ten minutes before another driver. I’ll take whichever guy minimizes threats to the O-licence, Every. Single. Time.

@cooper1203

@zac_a

Vote Leave’s supposed “trump card”

and how many billions were spent on the extra hospitals ppe and other stuff for covid?

Lets keep it on topic: Leave promised we’d have £350m extra and that would be used for the NHS. Th.at did not happen. This is irrelevant to any discussions of Covid, unless you have data that we were spending £350m per week on NHS provisions to deal with covid? In which case we have the £350m available once again now that Covid is history.

@cooper1203

tht is why i chose an example of a company that was both down here and up there. given your experience and position there was a fair chance you would know what they were paying and we could of compared them. but there are companies down here that pay 12 quid an hour for days however they are advertising every week and are also in front of the tm a lot.

I don’t honestly know first hand right now what their wages are like, their currently advertised vacancies don’t give that info - which is in itself an indication - but the NE HGV FB group aren’t suggesting anything like £18 per hour, and there is of course a lot of generic slagging them off, which means nothing in real terms. I do know that similar big local components of outfits like Kinaxia are not paying anything like £18 an hour, more like £14 at best.

@cooper1203

@zac_a

News flash - Cornwall is not an independent country.

exactly my point

You said independence worked well for Cornwall, the last time they were independent was probably around the time King Alfred was failing at cookery. So what was your point?

@cooper1203

i havent heard of any distilleries going bust and as for the summer isle they seem to be doing ok now some yank company has bought them out.

Probably because whisky doesn’t have a sell-by date.
Summer Isles? It’s a real place, but not remotely like the place depicted in the excellent “Whicker Man”. No idea what you’re talking about there, its not a distillery I know.

@cooper1203

@zac_a

We were NEVER going to get “the deal” many people believed we would, because those many people didn’t understand that international politics with its laws and inherent responsibilities is not as simple as metaphorically stamping your feet and demanding what you want.

yet the eu did just that

That is not an accurate interpretation of the situation

@cooper1203

@zac_a

Big Nige is still trying to sell the image that he can lead Britain in the style of a maverick character in a Hollywood film: His claim that he would have people “picked up in the channel and returned to France” is nonsense and illegal under all international laws, both terrestrial and maritime

actually maritime law states that if someone is in genuine difficulty you have to go to their rescue if practical and take them to the nearest safe place.

Maritime law DOES NOT allow you to remove someone from the water, or attach a towline to their vessel, and take them to where you would prefer them to be.
That is what international law would call “piracy”.

And, if you had direct experience of maritime law you would know that you never accept a rope from a towing vessel, you give them your rope to be towed, otherwise you are now just “salvage”

@cooper1203

@zac_a

I’m going to hazard a guess that the Stilton manufacturers have already well considered those points and that there are sound reasons why they have not done so. The guys being interviewed by R4 didn’t go into that kind of detail, only that it was a genuine problem.

i very much doubt they have. they have had a cushy ride and now have to put their hands in their pockets and change so they are crying on r4 aboiut it

So, from your several posts, anyone who states Brexit has harmed their business is
just a whinger who has done nothing to help themselves? If that was how they operated they would never have stayed in business in the first place.

@cooper1203

@zac_a

Local shops for local people (“we’ll have no trouble heeeeere”) are limited by the local economy

tell that to the supermarkets that supply local produce

Supermarkets do not limit their self to local produce, which is what you were suggesting was a viable solution. I’m pretty sure your Tesco’s and Sainsbury’s aren’t that much different than mine.

@cooper1203

@zac_a

The Euro as a currency isn’t a factor in the rising popularity of the far-right in those countries. Germany is an odd example when it comes to currency, they never set a deadline for swapping Marks into Euros, so it never totally went out of use; banks still happily accept them as do many businesses.

its not the far right as you call it its the general population that has had a belly full of the eu

Seriously, you need to read up on what is happening in France, especially seeing as it’s closer to you than it is to me.

[zac_a]

@robroy

Yep,.I aint anti Europe common market type trade,.I am just anti European Union for the reasons I pointed out.

Fair enough.

@robroy

As for illegal migrants choosing to come to a small island over (and after sampling) a much larger mainland, there needs to be some kind of deterrent.
If sending them back, or simply turning them around half way aint an option, (cant see why btw)

International law, especially Maritime Law

@robroy

lets start dealing with the soft touch of handing everything in form of monetary and physical benefits over to them on a plate…and concenteate on the needy group of the native indigenous people instead.

Wasn’t that what I also said?
“for a start we could have had a situation where we made it clear that there wasn’t a full-benefits-package for all and sundry arriving here”

I too am concerned about some of Labour’s manifesto pledges and historical biases.

No one has yet convinced me to vote for them, several of the nine candidates on offer have ruled their selves out by what they’ve said. It’s going to come down to an either/or choice on the actual day I think.

[cooper1203]

@zac_a

I could not care less if the driver takes TEN shunts to get on a bay. As a working ETM that kind of metric is just a urination contest for onanists. I’ll take the driver that can understand what I want. I’ll also argue with the Operator as to which one is best.

FYI as an ETM the Operator is not “my boss”, he’s “my client”.

I also couldn’t give a rat’s derriere if one driver can arrive ten minutes before another driver. I’ll take whichever guy minimizes threats to the O-licence, Every. Single. Time.

i didnt mean you in your current capacity i meant you as someone that says there is a shortage of decent drivers you would trust with the kit etc.

@zac_a

In which case we have the £350m available once again now that Covid is history.

and so we should except sunak et al has screwed the pooch and done all sorts of cobblers to line the pockets of the eu.

@zac_a

I don’t honestly know first hand right now what their wages are like, their currently advertised vacancies don’t give that info - which is in itself an indication - but the NE HGV FB group aren’t suggesting anything like £18 per hour, and there is of course a lot of generic slagging them off, which means nothing in real terms. I do know that similar big local components of outfits like Kinaxia are not paying anything like £18 an hour, more like £14 at best.

the website says competative salary for all the positions as well as driving however to be fair the local one to me had life assurance as a benefit where as another one i looked at had it listed as life assurance of 3 x annual wage. I agree that some times describing somthing as competitive pay can be read as low wages however i think on the whole there is more to it. even recently (hoyer■■?) had strikes because one area was getting more than another. not publishing the wage could be for those sorts of reasons.

@zac_a

You said independence worked well for Cornwall, the last time they were independent was probably around the time King Alfred was failing at cookery. So what was your point?

I assumed that you would get the sarcasm as clearly cornwall isnt independent they thought they could go it alone and couldnt. scotland would go the same way.

@zac_a

Summer Isles? It’s a real place, but not remotely like the place depicted in the excellent “Whicker Man”. No idea what you’re talking about there, its not a distillery I know.

summer isles are / were world famous for their smoke houses and the meat and fish they produced

@zac_a

Maritime law DOES NOT allow you to remove someone from the water, or attach a towline to their vessel, and take them to where you would prefer them to be.
That is what international law would call “piracy”.

who said anything about boarding them or attaching a rope these gits are getting 200 meters of the french coast and calling the coast gaurd to come get them. we dont need to board them all you need is a couple of cutters and just go round in circles round them creating a nice big wash then if you feel like picking them up out the drink you can take them back as above.

@zac_a

If that was how they operated they would never have stayed in business in the first place.

sure they would of. i have demonstrated on several topics what they could do but they just sit and cry and blame brexit and the driver shortage and covid for their failures.

@zac_a

Supermarkets do not limit their self to local produce, which is what you were suggesting was a viable solution. I’m pretty sure your Tesco’s and Sainsbury’s aren’t that much different than mine.

go sit at an rdc for 10 minuets and see where the majority of the goods are coming from they dont go and buy brussle sprouts from scotland they get them from a local supplyer

[robroy]

Just thinking, our resident ‘Political authority/expert’ is awol lately.
It’s the last few days building up to the GE ffs…I thought he would be all over it providing us all with his last minute anti Tory and Brexit links.

Yep specially strange at this stage of the Political calendar…All this stuff is Frangers moist dream, his World Cup, his Glastonbury, his Wimbledon, his…oh to hell, you get the drift.
Rumour has it that Starmer has been checking out TN, and has recruited Frangers as his advisor/Labour spin doctor.
His dream gig…Carryfast is rumoured to be livid btw.
I’m waiting for a similar call from Southgate to get a job advising him.

[zac_a]

@cooper1203

i didnt mean you in your current capacity i meant you as someone that says there is a shortage of decent drivers you would trust with the kit etc.

Perhpas I should have qualified that my version of “decent driver” is one that brings the vehicle back in the condition he took it out, without attracting fines, PG9s etc

@cooper1203

and so we should except sunak et al has screwed the pooch and done all sorts of cobblers to line the pockets of the eu.

Evidence please, as I have no idea what you think it is he’s supposed to have done

Regional wage variations seems like something that would take a lot of research, all I know is that no driver I know is on £20 per hour, and very very few claim to be on anything like £18 p/h

@cooper1203

I assumed that you would get the sarcasm as clearly cornwall isnt independent they thought they could go it alone and couldnt. scotland would go the same way.

If the Cornish have ever tried to be independent, their campaign didn’t register with me. Scotland haven’t let go of that dream and that sole issue determines whether Scots will or will not vote SNP

@cooper1203

who said anything about boarding them or attaching a rope these gits are getting 200 meters of the french coast and calling the coast gaurd to come get them. we dont need to board them all you need is a couple of cutters and just go round in circles round them creating a nice big wash then if you feel like picking them up out the drink you can take them back as above.

Surely there’s some part of you than knows that kind of behaviour is reprehensible and illegal?

@cooper1203

sure they would of. i have demonstrated on several topics what they could do but they just sit and cry and blame brexit and the driver shortage and covid for their failures.

If you genuinely believe that is true, you should be coining it in as a business advisor. But it’s not true, it’s a massive failure to be able to put yourself into the shoes of someone else and see thing from their perspective. I’m certain that the Stilton makers aren’t saying anything about drivers or any alleged shortage.

@cooper1203

go sit at an rdc for 10 minuets and see where the majority of the goods are coming from they dont go and buy brussle sprouts from scotland they get them from a local supplyer

Thankfully I don’t need to sit at RDCs these days, but I can read the writing on the side of the boxes in the supermarket so I can see where the produce has come from.

[winseer]

Summary and Observations:

Politics is about what optics we all choose to believe, and which in plain-sight we choose to ignore.

Brexit was bad to those businesses that relied to heavily on EU-leaning aspects of the economy, such as fast-tracking migrants over here to take jobs, laying on “Sheds with beds” because they wouldn’t be able to afford to live in the UK on such low wages otherwise…

After the Lockdown, larger companies were far better positioned to benefit from the Brexit effect than smaller companies, who took a more “Don’t spend money on it, until it’s broken beyond repair” attitude to leaks in their own line of business.

Look at which firms pay decent wages NOW for example:
Chances are, if you work for some chickens hit outfit - you’ll be paid to match, maybe as much as A pound per hour over the NMW… Not good, but during the lockdown - these were the main places that kept on working, oddly enough…
Once the lockdown was over - the larger firms coming back into the economy - were able to poach all those drivers who were clearly immune to Covid, and more importantly - didn’t care about it that you suddenly have a pool of Premium Drivers to choose from… Highest bidder - wins!

Where does that leave the smaller yard?

We had a thread on here over a year ago “Where have all me drivers gone?”

That’ll explain pretty much the rest there.
Brexit wasn’t so much “Good or Bad” - it was just an opportunity badly handled by some, and grabbed with both hands by others…

I could even argue that an “Economic Supertanker” has finally been turned around…
We’re still heading for a fresh, and new “manufactured” Recession of course…
The Left want houses lower priced, and they honestly think people with 500k houses NOW will be lining up to flog them off for 50k later to some unemployed Media Studies student who finds they are pretty much unemployable…

Thing is, you STILL won’t be able to get a mortgage for £50k - if you have no steady job FFS…

The election:

A number of things don’t feel right about this election…
I don’t think Labour really are going to get 400+ seats as I’ve said before… They might swap places with what Boris Johnson scored in 2019 though…
Tories down to 202 seats, Labour upto 364 seats…
What about the other parties though?
If it’s only Labour/Conservative seats changing hands among themselves, then where do the Libdems pick up these 50 seats from?
Remainer Tories? - Ok, that means a lot of Labour Red Wall seats are NOT going back to Labour, and the “winnable-by-labour” Tory seats of the south coast - are likely to be carved up by the Greens, Libdems, and RUK combined…

We could become more polarized of course, and vote Tory out of fear that what’s been said of Farage is all true…
Even then though - Where does Labour get this big win from?
Surely it is the very people that are “not voting Tory any more” shifting to RUK that are the very LAST ones that’ll consider voting Libdem/Labour in 48 hours from now!

My wife gets a postal vote. She’s already voted.
My daughter and I will be voting in person on Thursday.
It’s a free vote, and she votes for whom she wants.
I have suggested to her to read up on ALL the local candidates so she can make an informed choice.

The polls say our local MP (Chishti) is a gonner, as well as Tollhurst on the other side of the river…
The newbie young lad Tory who hopes to inherit outgoing Tracey Crouch’s seat - seems on course to KEEP it however.

My expectation is still that the Tories will lose around 100 seats, the Libdems will go sideways, and Labour will obtain a small majority by stripping seats away from the SNP.
Wether or not any “crumbs” fall under the table from that so RUK can win upto ten seats - remains to be seen.

Someone, somewhere is going to be greatly disappointed.
If the Libdems do indeed win 50+ seats - Labour are not going to be winning as many - are they?
If the Tories don’t lose 300+ seats - this “supermajority” isn’t going to happen - is it?
If the Tories barely lose 100-150 seats - we might even end up with a hung parliament, where the shortfalling party - doesn’t have any allies to go into coalition with!

Should Starmer resign though… All kinds of even worse likelihoods come to bear…
Eg. Labour win 320 seats, won’t go into coalition with anyone, because they all demand an immediate scrapping of Brexit…
Starmer resigns, and Raynor goes into coalition with the Libdems as they still have at least 10 seats, but the SNP now have less than 6, putting them out of contention as potential coalition partners…
Now the Libdems have got “Scrap Brexit” in their manifesto, so
in my mind THAT is the easiest way we could lose Brexit altogether!

Should Starmer win this unlikely-seeming Supermajority, I can see his version of Labour then purging the Far Left to keep themselves in the center of politics…
Again, that cannot happen if the Libdems gain seats that Labour should be winning…

RUK will most likely win seats on a low-turnout in areas where Labour are third or lower in local polling.
Torquay, West Dorset, Poole along the British Riviera…
East Anglia, and Lincolnshire are also other RUK hotspots…

The only way RUK would find themselves in Government then - comes from the Tories holding onto 320 seats, with RUK having at least 7…
Should Labour only take 44 seats off the Tories of course, they’ll lose this election and Starmer will be gone by the weekend…

I’ve yet to see a pollster, and I’m deeply suspicious about these “Polls” that no longer seem to be every day leading upto an election, as was the case in former years…
Odd that!
A couple of weeks ago, RUK were about to cut across the declining Tory total… Suddenly the up-to-date polls stop, and get replaced by “trickle” poll feeds from minor ones…

Where are the polls we used to hear of all the time?

Then there’s the C4 stunts where a known actor gets paid to “play up” on camera (yeh right, as if…) and the Media are all over it, repeating the lie, making THAT go viral, rather than what do we do for “Foreign Policy” after this election?

Where’s Cameron?

At present, it seems it is
Vote Labour/Conservative to continue the Ukraine funnelling of our cash indefinitely, until we get Putin, or Putin gets Us.
Time isn’t working in our favour. Putin isn’t going anywhere, and at least ONE of the parties above - will be gone by this weekend!

Try and talk against current policy though?
“OOOhh Farage is a Putin Sympathizer”…
Wot? Because he wants that next palletful of £60billion to go the NHS’s way (How about converting BUPA hospitals to take off the entire waiting lists…? - Cost of that? Affordable?)

This isn’t about “I don’t want to lose my seat!”
This is about “I’m about to be exposed as a criminal who’s working for a foreign entity against my own country for years and years…”
We used to call that crime “Treason”.
We used to execute people for that crime, with even a king once falling foul of that very law…

THAT is what this election is really about.
If we sleep walk into merely flipping Red and Blue about - we’ll end up with a deep recession by the end of this year, and mushrooming energy prices all over again, if not the other more worrying kind of “Mushrooms”…

All we need to do is stop spending money on foreign stuff, and keep it at home for people already here to benefit.

No wonder Britain goes by the name of “Treasure Island” for so many trying to get here…

[zac_a]

I’d like to see a result that tells all the political parties “We have no faith in any of you”. I certainly don’t want to see this anticipated “super-majority” for Labour (I don’t believe it is likely anyway).

Whoever I end up voting for, it will for me constitute some form of protest vote.

[robroy]

I know you probably will not agree😃, but I think the only vote that will be looked upon as a ‘protest vote’ will be a vote for Reform.

As I have said the 2 main parties are maybe not afraid, but totally aware and wary about the amount of support they are getting…hence the ridicule, bad mouthing, and attempted smear campaigns at every tenuous opportunity.
If they were not bothered as they claim, they would be looked upon somewhere between an irrelavance and a nonentity.

Way I see it…

Lib dems? …a vote for the deluded.

Greens? …a vote for the naive, (and the rest of the deluded who are left over from the Lib dems.)

Any other party?..a vote not worth the ink taken to make the cross, which will not be seen as a protest…imo.

[zac_a]

@robroy

I know you probably will not agree😃, but I think the only vote that will be looked upon as a ‘protest vote’ will be a vote for Reform.

That is further from my voting choices today than ever before, having listened to Richard Tice on Today this morning between 7:30 and 8:00. I was embarrassed for him

Today - Election 2024: Nick Robinson and Amol Rajan - BBC Sounds

[robroy]

Aye,.I know, I get it fully that you are totally against all things reform, but I fail to see how a vote for any other party could be seen as a ‘protest’ vote.
The only alternative is not vote at all, but as far as a protest, or a noticeable one, it will just go under the radar in comparison.

[zac_a]

@robroy

Aye,.I know, I get it fully that you are totally against all things reform,

That’s not it at all: It was Richard Tice’s moronically aggressive, evasive and quite frankly crass presentation; he managed to be even worse than James Cleverly the previous day.

If my reaction to listening to a polictician is: “You’re making yourself look like a moron because this interviewer has you (metaphorically) on the ropes and is beating you senseless but you’re too full of anger to realise this and find a way to manage it effectively”, they aren’t going to get my vote.

[franglais]

@robroy

attempted smear campaigns at every tenuous opportunity.

Really ?
What “attempted smear campaigns”?

@robroy

Lib dems? …a vote for the deluded.

Ah…So you, who have acknowledged that the RefUK Ltd financial plans are nonsensical, and who don’t like it when professional politicians lie to you, are considering voting for a part…sorry…company that you know is telling lies and is headed by a bloke who hasn’t had a job outside of the political arena for twenty odd years.
That is not a protest vote. That is a turkey voting for an early Christmas.

Anyway, just to cheer you up here is a BBC reporter seen when he thought the camera was off. It proves it is all a conspiracy.

2024 Election Specials. 4. The Conservatives

How do we know it ia a real reporter?
Because it is all true!

[robroy]

Oh God he’s back.
I wont bother giving my opinions or saying what I think.

From now on I’ll consult you first,.as you clearly think you know more about what know than I do myself, and then go on put words in my mouth for me.

As for voting for Christmas, (or in this case Nigel Farage,) I’ve never let any politicians spoil any of my Christmases…how about you?

Got to say, it’s not at all like you to come across as condescening btw.

[maoster]

Can’t vote Conservative because they’re scumbags, can’t vote Liberal because they’re a joke party comprised of jolly ex public schoolboy types frittering away daddies inheritance. Can’t vote Liebour because every freak in the woodwork will come crawling out when they win.

[franglais]

@robroy

I wont bother giving my opinions or saying what I think.

You already have!
You have said that you are well aware that RefUK Ltd do not have a fiscal policy that adds up (they are lying to you) and that you don’t like politicians who lie.

@robroy

Got to say, it’s not at all like you to come across as condescening btw.

Good. So long as you aren’t offended, and have not had your ego bruised, we can carry on, can’t we? Don’t want to turn into touchy-feely woke types do we?

@maoster

can’t vote Liberal because they’re a joke party comprised of jolly ex public schoolboy types frittering away daddies inheritance.

RefUK Co Ltd have 4 officers.
At least 2 of them, Farage and Tice are privately educated.
Farage isn’t spending his inheritance. He is spending his…earnings…as a professional politician. He has done nothing outside of the political arena for about 20yrs, often being very vocal about the “establishment” of which he is a full member.

[robroy]

Wrong again Condescension Man.
I dont ‘like’ ANY politicians for the reasons I have explained to you until.I am almost blue in the face…one of which is imo they are ALL liars in varying degrees, some more than others, it is part and parcel of being a politician, nature of the beast etc…
So sorry if I aint a fanboy of them all like yourself, but as I’ve told you before mate, unlike you my mind,.and especially my eyes are wide open, and I do not believe all I am told…you should try it.

I’m voting Reform although they have no chance of winning, it is more of a ‘protest’ if you like, .and because if/when it is done in numbers it is going to pi55 off the 2 main parties…also people like yourself (evidently) which is an added bonus.

As for voting Farage as a leader of said party, again as I keep telling you he appeals to me the rest do not, as he is a bit of a maverick character, and for the unrest and mischief he is causing amongst the Tories and your beloved Labour crew.

[md1987]

See Boris was out rallying the Tory troops last night

[md1987]

Lol even Starmer said he won’t work Friday nights.

[franglais]

@robroy

I’m voting Reform because if/when it is done in numbers it is going to ■■■■ off the 2 main parties…also people like yourself (evidently) which is an added bonus.

I don’t know which constituency you are in, but splitting the right wing vote between ReFUK Ltd and the Cons is a fine by me. Keep up the good work.
Labour and Lib/Dems will no doubt be chuffed by choices such as that.

I can assure you that I did not think of you at all as my (postal) vote was cast, except as one of millions of other UK citizens.

@robroy

again as I keep telling you he appeals to me the rest do not, as he is a bit of a maverick character, a

A maverick?
Private education, own company folded, and has only earned cash in and around politics for 20ish years?
A full member and beneficiary of the same system he pretends to knock all the time.

[franglais]

Really? He managed to get on a plane and fly back to the UK then?

Starmer might want to have an evening off once a week, it seems Johnson is prepared to work one evening a month.

Why doesn't Keir Starmer work on Fridays?