Political discussions...

OUT OF HOURS BULLY'S TRUCKSTOP BAR (INTERACTIVE)
1163

Without talking about soft ■■■■ (erotica) books and films…
You don’t do shades of grey do you?

I have never attempted to say that Labour were or are saints.
In the past, although you have set up straw men accusing me of such, I have never said that life in the EU was brilliant.
In both cases, EU and Labour I do say they are better than the alternatives.
A bit less horrible.

If you want to hear stories of sunlit uplands and prancing unicorns, then those well known purveyors of snake oil Farage, Johnson, (where is that lazy so’n’so now?) and some newer ones, are willing to promise you all of that.

I try to deal in some form of reality.
If you want absolutes, then listen as you do, to the simple fixes for complex problems.

“All the same” again?
Then (if you really believe that) vote for no-one because it’ll make no difference.
But I say they are different and you should vote.

Shall we unpick that sentence?
If I refute stuff that is common knowledge…
Then the “common knowledge” is flawed. It is not “common knowledge”, it is a “common error”, a “common misunderstanding”, or a “lie commonly believed”.
If I have refuted summat, then I have told you the truth about summat, and you seem to shouting at me for it.
OR
The refutation is false.
I have told a lie and the “common knowledge” is in fact true. So just back it up some facts, and I will be grateful to you for straightening me out.

The lie that Labour were financially incompetent has been repeated time and again in the (Wow! Shock! Tory owned media!) that does not make it true.
They were not perfect. Of course not!
But they were better than reported by the media, and certainly better than the flat lining economics of the Govs since them.

Yes I do see that Farage and Reform Ltd are doing very well in polls.
He has I have already said a fair old chance of actually getting elected to the HoC.
Due to the UK First Past The Post system the MRI polls suggest that the Reform Ltd Company, might only get one or two seats though. Under Proportional Representation that might have been a lot more.
His chances of being the Official Opposition next Parliament, are up there with his economic policies, away with the fairies.
If we had PR he would have been elected long ago. Just like he was elected to the “undemocratic” EU. :wink:

1164

Hmmm back pedalling a bit in places, but we are getting there.

Thanks for explaining the concept of refutation btw, you appear to think of yourself as my mentor lately I notice.
You’ll be calling me ‘Grasshopper’ next.
:smiley:
As for your other advice on how I should vote (thanks again btw) …I may just take it up, but I am erring towards Nigel’s gang, not only to pi55 people like yourself off😃, but more so the 2 main parties if he gets a good turn out.

Due to that and my opinions of the 2 main parties, all 3 options are a waste of time in the long run I’m thinking.

1165

Really? Maybe you can tell me where I have changed my position, as opposed to changed from where your imagination, put my position?
But… if I am, I am.

I am not pretending to be perfect and absolutely consistent about everything.
I am not like that person whose video you just put up where the audience laughs at his claim to “always tell the truth”.

1166

I can see why Nige is buzzing over the latest poll, but we’ve seen polls be massively wrong in the past (see link) so “We’re the official opposition” might sound good down the pub, but I don’t think it’s going to mean much overall without something far more substantial happening.

I love the way that a privately-educated, former stockbroker (and son of a stockbroker), Coutts bank customer has persuaded a large number of “ordinary people” who have nothing in common with him or his background that he is “their man”, while the equally unlike-the-rest-of-us contender RS has to pretend he “gets it” and that he too had a deprived upbringing (because they had no Sky TV). Yes Rishi, you get it, you can totally relate to how we had a black and white TV until Xmas 1973 :roll_eyes:

I bet Nige has studied how things were in 1st Century BC Rome, when the man-of-the-people Julius Caesar became top dog because the two other factions Pompey and Crassus (substitute Starmer and Sunak) were just going at it hammer and tongs with each other and weren’t properly switched on to the ambition of “the other guy” . Judging by how well Nige speaks I suspect he’s also a big fan of master-orator Cicero.

https://www.ft.com/content/9faedd0d-e51e-3803-a507-c79fdeb7350b

1167

Tbf Starmer aint got a lot in common with ordinary working blokes either…

Oh yeah, I forgot, his old man was a toolmaker (how I forgot I dont know.as he feels the need to tell us at every opportunity)…oh yeah an Arsenal fan as well, good thing or bad thing? .hmmm.

Ok working class lad made good, and tbf good on him…
Uni, law school,.ex QC (as far as I know) and finally in the top echelons of the British legal system before retiring.
So not a great deal in common.with a bloke who drives a truck either,…just like the rest of em.

If he has empathy with his (previous) class, he may be ok, but as I have said they promise the earth get in, and attitides change, promises are broken, every ■■■■ time …even Frangers will find it hard to refute that one.

The proposition put forward that they aint as bad as the Tories) meaning they are bad in their own way) is hardly a reason to rush to the polling station I reckon.

Hey, but I’m ignorant…apparentlly.:face_with_thermometer:
:joy:

1168

I wonder where that idea came from?

In that and other posts you tell us that you don’t take much interest in, nor have much knowledge of politics.
You are ignorant of the subject.

The version of RR who told us he has passed exams in English, will tell the shrieking snowflake version of RR, taking offence at imagined slights, that ignorant is not a synonym for stupid.

1169

True enough that all parties have failures as well as successes. Of course.
I would rather listen to a party that talks about achievable goals, rather than fall for the excessive, fantasies of others.

As I have said look at the records of parties when they are in office.
I do mean the records, not opinion pieces in the media, and opinions of opponents.
We had falling NHS wait lists with Labour, with Tories they rose…and even before C19 that is true.
Under Labour we had a bigger growth in the economy, even after the global crash. In fact Brown started building the economy up until the first Cameron Gov got in, but the Tories don’t talk about that…and no surprise, the media doesn’t. And it isn’t C19 knocking the economy down, it was flatlining for years before that.
I could put up links and graphs…I will…but since you seem to be happy going along with some imaginary “common knowledge” I expect that although a few others might read the info, I doubt you will.

U.K. GDP Per Capita 1960-2024 | MacroTrends.

Look at that last one in detail.
After the Global Crash 2007/9 we had problems, but after that we were doing better. We did rise a bit, under Brown, but Cameron stopped the rise and pretty much flat ever since.

Truss hammered us all, and Farage tweeted that it was good budget.
If you like the economics of Truss, vote Farage.
I daresay he will tell us all how great everything will be. Just as he did with Brexit. And when it doesn’t happen he will lie about what he said, and tell us it is all someone else’s fault, just as he did with Brexit.

But hey, he is a good speaker, he does tell a good story.
It is all ■■■■■■■■, every time it is ■■■■■■■■, but if anyone wants to give him another shot, fine.
But don’t do it through ignorance.
Be informed.
Do it through stupidity
:grinning:

1170

I’m relating to him in terms of background:
his dad a Toolmaker, my Dad was a taxi driver turned publican,
his mother was a nurse, my mother worked in various jobs not quite as elevated as nursing
I started life as a toolmaker having gone through a standard comprehensive school, he went to Grammar school having passed the 11-plus (they scrapped that around here the year I would have been due to take it, so who knows,"I could have been a contender " too).

He went to Uni straight after A-levels, I didn’t, I did it as a mature student aged about 30. This only possible because of The Open University, a scheme created by the ideals of earlier Labour governments and aimed squarely at working class people who didn’t get their chance - ie people exactly like me.

Ignoring for a moment his both his barrister background, and his self-professed love of watching men in short trousers run around on a field, as far as the three main characters go, I’ve got more in common with him than I have with RS or NF

But if you feel a former private-school educated stockbroker is better suited to lead the country, with his “man of the people,” carefully-crafted beer & tabs/fags facade, that’s just democracy in action

1171

Here is a copy and paste from elsewhere.
"
@brianferguson7840

1 hour ago (edited)

For those too young or too stupid to remember. Under the last Labour government, Highest satisfaction in the NHS “Ever”. 20,000 more police officers, 32,000 police support staff. 63,000 more nursing staff. Twice as many courts, libraries, police stations. 19,000 more doctors. Average wage 31% higher. 26,000 surestart centers nationally. 2 day waiting time for GP appointments 4 hour A&E waiting time. Lowest child poverty since the war. Lowest homeless numbers since the 80s. Highest living standards since the war. AND NOT A SINGLE FOODBANK… BUT IF YOU DON’T WANT ANY IMPROVEMENT “DONT VOTE FOR THE PARTY THAT EXISTS FOR YOUR BENEFIT”

And just to mention, we now have more food banks than McDonalds.

But in the interests of balance:
everyone should go back and follow RobRoy’s links to the Telegraph> those with pensions of over a million quid may have pay more tax under a Starmer Government!

1172

Stolen from a comment by a Canadian about that video is the idea the The Tories and Reform could potentially create an alliance party:
Conservative and Reform Alliance Party :laughing:

That would have been so much easier with font colour changes

1173

:grinning: Nice one.

Just like the National Conservatives, the
NatCs
(Nat Sees)

1174

Liking it! They should do it.

When I used to spend regular time on trains I was always amused by the announcents that there would be “aN AT SEat” trolley service along shortly.

1 Like
1175

The LibDems must be so miserable, they’re not even on the radar enough to be getting slagged off

1176

I think it was YOU who made the accusation of me being ignorant.

As for taking offence, it seems we both have differing views on the definition of that one also.
Reminding you,.and the showing up of, your condescending attitude on here is simply THAT…not ‘taking offence’ by any means on my part…just to clarify.

1177

But the polls do (currently) have them with a much better chance of being the opposition than Farage.
Not as great a proportion of the popular vote as Reform Ltd, but many more seats.

FPTP looks worse every time you see it.

PR would give Reform Ltd more seats than they are (currently) likely to get.
I do not want that, but if that is truly the wishes of the people then that is what we should have.
If they get more of the popular vote than the Libs then they should have more seats.

I would much bigger changes than that though if we evr get PR.
Those who are truly Libs or Greens would be able to usefully vote for their first choice, not hold their noses and vote for the least bad of the Tory/Lab big two.
Sorry Scots/Welsh, I have enough trouble with Engerland.
Under PR? Smaller Tory and Lab, bigger ReformLtd, Lib, Green etc.

Less chance for anything too drastic from any wing, hopefully.
Maybe more concensus and better long term/collaborative policies?

Nah, didn’t really think so.

1178

OK, I’m convinced: Big Nige needs more support!

As soon as one of his goons make a doorstep appearance, I’m going to shown them that at least one member of the Zac A household is ready to get out there in their Sunday Best and help Reform win. I’m going to leave these on the coat rack in the hall to show them we’re serious: Big Nige Uber Alles! :sunglasses:

Ready
Ready426×848 105 KB

1179

Wear that with jodhpurs?

Or are you a F1 fan and wear stockings and suspenders?

1180

In the spirit of all being united.

It won’t last long…but…

1181

Got the boots and the belt, just missing the trousers, so looks like it will have to be the F1 version for now…

Seems to work quite well with fishnets

1 Like
1182

Yep,.everybody was in total bliss during the last Labour govt as you say Frangers.

I remember it well.

Btw…is it me or yourself you are trying to convince of this.