Political discussions...

[franglais]

@cooper1203

quoting yearly stats makes no sense when discussing a months figures as per the video

where did atkins or me say they were better than a year ago or when sunak became pm so again she hasn’t lied try again or alternatively focus on the ones that have lied repeatedly like starmer abbott and rayner et al

Atkins said
There had been “improvements over the past few months”
But also agreed the figures are worse than this time last year
Are worse than when Sunak came to power.

Monthly figures are of limited use, There are always random short term variations. And seasonal differences. Just as well say global warming is decreasing because January was colder than September.

The waiting lists are bad.
Worse than last year.
Worse than when Sunak took over.
Atkins did not deny any of that.

Talking about monthly variation is
Clutching at straws / Grabbing a fig leaf / Dancing on a pinhead

@cooper1203

alternatively focus on the ones that have lied repeatedly like starmer abbott and rayner et al

Go on then.
Tell us about some of their lies?

[franglais]

In have read an explanation about why Trusts might appear to be doing well.

“Some of them are doing well because thay cant do operations anymore due to the fact that their buildings are made from Aerated Concrete (RAAC) and are too dangerous to use. So they are having to divert patients elsewhere increasing the others waiting lists but making themselves look better as their waiting lists have been reduced”

Of course that may or may not true.

If Atkins will not name those she says are doing well, how can we tell if her interpretation of figures is valid or not?

[franglais]

Meanwhile at the ongoing Covid enquiry,

https://youtu.be/yGxknYrUiFw?si=3g8pcDxQkUyi9UrE

We now know Sunak spent £2,000,000 on focus groups before
“Eat out to help out”
But didn’t even speak to the free Gov medical experts.

[cooper1203]

@winseer

What I’d like to know from both of you - is how you think this will all get better once Keir Starmer inherits Number 10?

they wont its that simple it will screw the country up even more and could very easily be the death knell of england that is hanging on by a thread

i thought i had said this to you already but i am in a quandary for the next general election. The conservative mp is that stupid woman helen whately that is nearly as two faced as starmer. If i vote conservative in the hopes of keeping starmer out she is likely to keep her seat. if i vote for any other party she is still likely to keep her seat but starmer will get in.

[cooper1203]

@franglais

The waiting lists are bad.
Worse than last year.
Worse than when Sunak took over.
Atkins did not deny any of that.

so you agree then she didnt lie

edit to add

@franglais

If Atkins will not name those she says are doing well, how can we tell if her interpretation of figures is valid or not?

how does her naming for example the tunbridge wells trust help. are you going to visit and see if they are doing operations or if there is some other fiddle going on. Even if you can find out the surgery rates are you going to take the time to look up the national statistic level of people with that complaint? I can tell you know she wouldn’t have the time to do that for every statistic for every trust

all you can do is look up the waiting times for a particular trust and say they have treated x amount of patients this month/year compared to last month/year therefore the list has gone up or down in other words totally meaningless

[franglais]

I do not know whether or not she lied about waiting lists.

She said some trusts were doing well.
Since she hasn’t said which ones we can’t tell.

I suspect that she is being “economical with the truth” regards wating lists.

She insisted repeatedly that it wasn’t fair to name Trusts that were (in her opinion) doing well, yet she did reveal those doing badly in Dec 2023.
So, isn’t her refusal to name names, based on a lie?

[cooper1203]

waiting lists are difficult to measure because each treatment takes differing periods of time. for example would you say 5000 people waiting for more than 6 months for 1 minor non life changing treatment was worse than 2000 people waiting 2 weeks for cancer treatment.

you can bet your bottom dollar that those 5000 people that have had to wait for more than 6 months will be hollering about it and the head lines will read 5000 people have had to wait more than 6 months.

[franglais]

Yes it is difficult to measure waiting lists.

The methods used to measure do change.
There has been no change recently.

The lists are longer now.

The lists are not now, and never have been, on a metric of decibels caused by hollering.

Here we are again…

The lists are longer now.

They rose under Thatcher
They fell under Blair/Brown.
They have risen since Cameron and onwards.

They have risen under Sunak.
Even Atkins admits that.

[cooper1203]

@franglais

“Some of them are doing well because thay cant do operations anymore due to the fact that their buildings are made from Aerated Concrete (RAAC) and are too dangerous to use. So they are having to divert patients elsewhere increasing the others waiting lists but making themselves look better as their waiting lists have been reduced”

here is the thing. it wouldn’t surprise me if thats one of the games the trust chiefs are doing its what the eu did with their debt to the likes of Greece. One of the other games they play with the two week waiting list which i think is bloody disgusting is the gp suspects cancer so sends you to a specialist. The specialist knows darn well its cancer but says im not sure you need tests but i dont think it is but have these tests to be sure. Because the specialist hasn’t given the diagnosis of cancer you fall out of the two week rule. They are now free to drag their feet as much as they like until you get the diagnosis your not a statistic either.

nhs england needs a massive overhaul and in my humble opinion more hospitals or staff isnt going to cut it. trouble is no one is going to do it because the public wont want to foot the bill.

[cooper1203]

@franglais

The lists are not now, and never have been, on a metric of decibels caused by hollering

peoples attention to them are though which then makes it a political issue which in my opinion it shouldnt be. It should be run and managed correctly regardless of which party is in power

as i have said in the past the level of incompetence is staggering. the waiting lists the cost the “over worked staff” would all be sorted out if they did it correctly the first time and stopped treating the whole system as one big a and e

[cooper1203]

@franglais

They have risen under Sunak.
Even Atkins admits that.

you keep saying that as if i have said i disagree (i actually pointed it out to you) are you taking lessons from your pal rayner because all she can say is im a single mother

[franglais]

@cooper1203

rayner because all she can say is im a single mother

How many times have you repeated that in this thread?
Probably more times than she has said it herself!

Worse waiting times under the Tories?
Nowt more to say then.

[franglais]

@cooper1203

peoples attention to them are though which then makes it a political issue which in my opinion it shouldnt be. It should be run and managed correctly regardless of which party is in power

Of course it is political!

I agree that it shoudn’t be, but so long as there is underinvestment in the NHS to fund tax cuts for the rich it will be political.
So long as groups want the NHS privatised so funds can be squeezed out and into private bank accounts it is political.

@cooper1203

stopped treating the whole system as one big a and e

Why does it look like an A&E?
Because of the long waiting lists!

The failure of recent govs to tackle problems at the start rather than later on means more people unable to work. Minor ops turning into major ops or A&E cases.

The biggest cause of kids in hospital? Teeth.

Pliers, abscesses and agonising pain: Britain’s dental crisis – as seen from...

[franglais]

@cooper1203

@franglais

If Atkins will not name those she says are doing well, how can we tell if her interpretation of figures is valid or not?

how does her naming for example the tunbridge wells trust help. are you going to visit and see if they are doing operations or if there is some other fiddle going on. Even if you can find out the surgery rates are you going to take the time to look up the national statistic level of people with that complaint? I can tell you know she wouldn’t have the time to do that for every statistic for every trust

all you can do is look up the waiting times for a particular trust and say they have treated x amount of patients this month/year compared to last month/year therefore the list has gone up or down in other words totally meaningless

Atkins does not sit in an office by herself!
She has over 3,000 (2020) staff.

[zac_a]

@cooper1203

@winseer

What I’d like to know from both of you - is how you think this will all get better once Keir Starmer inherits Number 10?

they wont its that simple it will screw the country up even more and could very easily be the death knell of england that is hanging on by a thread

FFS… I wouldn’t like to be with either of you two in a real emergency situation

Meanwhile, back in the real world:

[franglais]

And following renewed (deja vu all over again) accusations from the Tory party Manchester Police are to now look at allegations involving a residency declaration, and Angela Rayner.

HMCR are not looking again at tax, and Police are not looking at tax or anything else, so far as I am aware.

[cooper1203]

@zac_a

FFS… I wouldn’t like to be with either of you two in a real emergency situation

Meanwhile, back in the real world:

If starmer gets in we will all be in it together.

is that the real world where labour added to and caused the great depression over here in 1931. or where labour created the welfare state costing god knows how much of tax payers money in 1950 or where labour caused all the union issues in the 60’s or where labour caused the three day week in 1974 or blair and brown adding a trillion pounds to the national debt
not to mention the war and migration

[franglais]

@cooper1203

is that the real world where labour added to and caused the great depression over here in 1931

Ransey McDonald’s minority government, in just a few months, caused the Wall St Crash?

@cooper1203

where labour caused the three day week in 1974

Ted Heath was in power during the 3 day week winter of '73 to '74.

@cooper1203

blair and brown adding a trillion pounds to the national debt

Yes, the National Debt rose under Blair/Brown.
Due to inflation and “affordability” it is often measured in % of GDP.

Blair/Brown 36% to 71%. in 13 years.

It has also risen even more under the Tory Govs after them.
To take out the Covid effect in fact it rose 71% to 85% 2010 to 2019.

Labour performed badly, but Tories made no improvements, and in fact, it got worse.

@cooper1203

not to mention the war and migration

I’ll mention migration.
Blair /Brown____________ 47k to 256k net immigration per annum
Tory 2010 to 2023________256k to 672k__________"___________

And the war.
Blair was wrong to go to war as he did with Bush.
There was an argument for action against Saddam Hussain, but it was all done very, very badly.

@cooper1203

where labour created the welfare state costing god knows how much of tax payers money in 1950

Well, yes Labour created the Welfare State.
And I would imagine the vast majority of Britons think it is a good thing.
And agreed it is not free.

If you want much less taxation, meaning: no state schools, no NHS hospitals, no unemployment or sick pay, no state pension, then fine.
I prefer to pay to more tax and get a better life for all of us.

If you get a life saving operation for yourself or you child, what is the first thing you do, look at the bill?
I’ll bet it is.
‘a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing
Wilde

[maoster]

Wilde? He was livid by all accounts.

[zac_a]

@cooper1203

@zac_a

FFS… I wouldn’t like to be with either of you two in a real emergency situation

Meanwhile, back in the real world:

If starmer gets in we will all be in it together.

is that the real world where labour added to and caused the great depression over here in 1931. or where labour created the welfare state costing god knows how much of tax payers money in 1950 or where labour caused all the union issues in the 60’s or where labour caused the three day week in 1974 or blair and brown adding a trillion pounds to the national debt
not to mention the war and migration

So, ideally you want Boris back, the Tories to stay in power and then somehow, miraculously, despite all the evidence of the past 13 years, life will be sweet?
Well, all the evidence is against you, so you may as well start dispensing with the Private Frazer state of mind