Political discussions...

OUT OF HOURS BULLY'S TRUCKSTOP BAR (INTERACTIVE)
281

Simplified to avoid too many multiquotes

1) im genuinely surprised you haven’t heard of it it was my understanding that a lot were being shipped up north.

A lot of “immigrants” and I’m using that as a catch all phrase, were and probably continue to be so, relocated to areas where housing is cheapest. Middlesbrough being one the favourite choices, (a) because of the cheap housing, and tongue-in-cheek (b) to show immigrants just how wrong the people-smuggling brochure was :smile: But calling it “ethnic cleansing” suggests a completely different thing

2) it wasn’t the eu until 93
It was called The Common Market when I was still at school in the 1970s, we were part of it then, no body bothered calling it The EEC. So it’s undergone some “rebranding” over the years, EEC became EC and then EC merged with EU… How much difference does it make in practice to the layperson? None, I’d venture.

Or at least the same kind of difference as me referring to a song by The Purple Pain, and being corrected that his name was “Prince” then someone else claiming the song was released during his “Symbol” or TAFKAP iteration. All pretty irrelevant really.

3) farmers were given subsidies to let their land go fallow all in the name of over production of food stuffs.
Letting farmland go fallow is as old as agriculture itself, originally we used to grow clover on fallow land to replace nitrogen in the soil - nitrogen being the main limiting factor in respect of soil being productive.

The Common Agricultural Policy was around again when I was a kid, I head about “milk lakes” and “butter mountains” etc, there’s no link to Tony Blair there.

4) if you want the damage of what blair did by opening the flood gates read back on this topic

You didn’t add a link, but if you’re referring to Labour being seen as a party allowing unfettered immigration, I believe you’ll find a lot of Labour voters will be in agreement, though I suspect Gordon Brown carries more of the can than Blair, due to the Gillian Duffy incident.

Incidentally, one of the easiest ways for farmers to coin it in these days is allowing wind turbines on their land.

282

in the case of what is now called the eu and what was the common market there is a huge difference. the common market was about having a set of standards and sticking to them. it stopped country a exporting a more expensive well designed product and being priced out of the market by an inferior poorly made product hence all the kite marks etc. That is nothing like the European union that we have to day that dictates laws in other countries and what each country can and cant do with their own resources. Your point about what prince is calling himself this week is irrelevant.

im talking about working people being displaced from the homes that their families have lived in for generations working class English men and women as well as the people that came over from other British territories when they were handed back.

i said both thatcher and blair you asked for links i gave you one for thatcher (the cap) that yes was in existance but not to the extent it was when she got us more involved. and destroyed farming as we knew it jim by allowing them to curtail our supply but increasing other countries plus all the rules about abattoirs.

i need a lesson from franglais on how to link past posts in a topic if you want all the references for the damage blair did.

283

Considering we are out of the EU now, why does the EU still bother you?

And wouldn’t your Kent-based, seemingly quite wealthy, family have been devout Tories?

Thatcher, and though I can barely bring myself to say anything positive about that woman, was renowned for taking a stand on certain European issues and even I must admit I am aware she fought and gained concessions for the UK

Just post one link please, on these displaced working folk, regardless of who is claimed to be at fault, Thatcher or Blair or anyone else, I am genuinely unaware of anyone (excluding all types of that catch-all group “immigrants” ) from the south being in anyway forcibly relocated to some other part of the UK.

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because we are a hairs bredth away from going back in and being royaly screwed if labor get in. Some of my friends that are by no means silly are still spouting various remain propaganda despite having gone abroad 10 times since we left and had no issue what so ever. As i keep repeatedly saying and you alluded to it on a different post this morning the younger generation don’t like research they would rather believe what their mate says than what the facts are.

first you assume i frequent wine bars and bistros now you call me a devout torie. :rage:

my maternal grandmothers parents and family came from Cheshire. my great grandmother was a teacher and great grandfather was a maestro in the philamonic and probably were conservative but they lost everything in the depression and swiftly became anti conservative. They then moved to Nottingham where my mother grew up. my maternal grandfathers side of the family i don’t know lot about apart from a couple of my second cousins one of which you would of heard of but doesn’t bare mention here other than to say he was a tory mp and the black sheep of the family.

my fathers side of the family came from hurn hill in london. and were labor if anything. after his divorce from his first wife he moved to biggin hill still working in peckham where my mother was then living in muswell hill in a rented room. I came along so they decided that they needed something more permanent so they moved to the village i grew up in. my mother is quaker and doesn’t like any of the parties and usually refuses to vote.

As i said above i wouldn’t vote conservative for a whole host of reasons some mentioned on this topic and because i know quite abit how they really operate and what has gone on since boris. However as i keep saying i don’t see any other party with a chance of wining other than labor which as said will go crying to the eu the second they get in. That really will be the death knell for the country

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I’ve seen nothing that makes me think anyone will try to take us back into Europe, we’re out now, and I think it would take decades for anyone to ever (seriously) try to raise that issue. There would be another demand for a referendum to re-enter, and you know Farage would be all over that in his fake “I’m a regular guy” disguise.

Plus any re-entry deal would likely be punative, just like the cabotage ruling was.

If Starmer does have that in mind, then he and his sidekicks (Reeves etc) have said nothing at all about it when being grilled by the Today programme interviewers.

You’ve made a lot of pro-Boris comments, why would I not conclude you are a Tory? And why would you say positive things about The Buffoon if they were not your preferred option?

No single party could be the death knell for the UK, historically it has been in our nature to be defiant, not defeatist (cue fight them on the beaches speech). We’ve survived Boris the Buffoon and Truss the-fiscally-insane. Starmer could not be any worse than either of those two, and if we don’t like what Labour do, they’ll be straight back out again next time around.

And, I did not say you went to wine bars, I said Yarm as a town had those things and I expected these things to have southerner-appeal.

286

boris did what he said he was going to do. truss et al are post boris that i did say above, Starmer has said that if people ask for a referendum to undo Brexit he would hold one

also Sir Keir Starmer: Labour is committed to a second referendum | London Evening Standard | Evening Standard

and Keir Starmer says Labour will campaign for a second Brexit vote if no election after EU deal failure

to quote you from another topic the 20 something that thought nepolean was an ice cream is going to be able to vote this time. and 100,000’s like her. All they have heard or know about the different parties is what they have been told. Even if you show them proof its not ignored and call you stupid.

287

I more or less agree.
Even if we a had a referendum tomorrow that said 60% wanted to join the EU, I doubt the EU would let us in for many years. Major trade deals are not the Hokey Cokey.
That doesn’t stop us getting a bit closer IMHO, and diluting some of the ongoing self-harm (thank you JRM) we are enduring.

Where are we better off now? Watch Liz Webster on how farmers are worse off and the UK has worse food security now than in the EU.

Not true.
Starmer did say in 2019 that he wanted a second referendum on Brexit. That was before Brexit happened, it was not to “undo Brexit”
I suspect that if the exact deal we walked away with was put before the people then it would not have been accepted. After all the pre-referendum ideas of continuing to be in the customs union etc were not the deal that Johnson gave us.

Since we have now left Starmer has not mentioned another referendum nor anything much about rejoining the EU. The situation has changed since 2019 and so has Labour policy.

Whoops Liz Webster

288

so i have spent the last hour looking for where he actually said these things. i suspect its more poor reporting where they have picked on one line out of a whole speech and said see he lied.

here is what i could find.

increased funding for nhs

50,000 more nurses

i cant find anything that was between 2019 and 2022 but clearly they did it by 2023

50 million more gp apointments

so thats a tick

20,000 more police officers by march 23

tougher sentencing for criminals

so thats a tick

An Australian-style points-based system to control immigration.

thats a tick

Millions more invested every week in science, schools, apprenticeships and infrastructure while controlling debt

in real cash terms school funding has risen from 42.5 billion in 2018/19 to 53.5 billion 2022/23 so 11 billion extra so 2.75 billion a year on average so 52.88 million per week.

as the clearly meets the standard on its own so that’s as a tick

Reaching Net Zero by 2050 with investment in clean energy solutions and green infrastructure to reduce carbon emissions and pollution.

we are not there yet but so far we have invested 73.9 billion dollars since 2019 so we have invested in it thats a tick.

We will not raise the rate of income tax, VAT or National Insurance.
income tax was at 20% basic 40% higher and 45% additional in 2018/19
still at the same rate in 2022/23

vat rate

vat actualy went down for some things
VAT: reduced rate for hospitality, holiday accommodation and attractions - GOV.UK

but remains at 20% since 2011

national insurance
boris did put this up because there was a pandemic and unforeseen circumstances a bit like you arranging to meet someone in the pub but due to breaking your leg you couldn’t make it.

so 2/3 for this one.

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Newspaper articles from 2018 and 2019 respectively. Somehow I seriously doubt Labour will be repeating those statements in 2024.

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if you wanted to implement a system at work would you chose someone that’s against it and is like to do a poor job or someone that’s for it.

all the things that those that didn’t want to leave have been moaning about for the last 4 years i don’t believe for one second that stamer will do as good a job as boris.

291

Wow, so you show he kept some promises?
OK, I never said he broke every promise. The article said he broke specific promises.

Triple tax lock broken.
Pensions triple lock broken.
Sell home to pay for health care.
40 New Hospitals.
Northern Powerhouse Rail from Manchester to Leeds. Not even going past Crewe.

And what of other things you say he/they have done?
Stiffer sentences? At the same time there are not enough prison places to criminals are being released months early.
Extra Police Officers. So they are now back up to the number we had in 2010. Not extra officers really is it? Just replacing those missing for years.

I don’t know where your figures and assertions about “school funding” are from or exactly what they refer to?
Is that education spending, or money for raac concrete, or other?
What does “real cash terms” mean? Does that mean inflation adjusted? How has the number of pupils changed?
Accounting for inflation the highest spending per pupil was back in 2010. Schools | Institute for Fiscal Studies
When Blair and Brown were ruining everything!
Exactly when we last had all those coppers too. But with a smaller population.

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we have discussed all the hospital garbage before and it was on track
i can find nothing on triple lock pensions that he actually said as to the selling your home to pay for a care home not health care he brought in higher levels of income and savings.

where did he say he was going to increase prison capacity. Its a simple thing to do in reality all you have to do is send home the prisoners that aren’t uk citizens.

if i have 5000 pounds in my account and i add 10,000 to it i have 15,000 pounds doesn’t matter a jot what i had way back when i have still added 10,000 to my bank account be real.

i forgot the link but here it is

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Boris did not do any kind of a “good job” as far as a lot of people are concerned, myself included, Oh… and many senior Tory ministers too.

As long as Starmer isn’t totally bent, he’ll be doing a better job than Boris simply by default.

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we aren’t discussing what others have done we were discussing boris’s electoral manifesto

so you say they were the same level as 2010
2010 34 more police officers left than joined. Therefore Boris did such a poor job in 2.5 years that he undid 11 years of severe decline.

in fact if you add up the number of net increase and subtract the total net loss you end up with 3661 net gain in other words 3661 more police officers than in 2010.

edit to add this

under the current party the number of police are the highest they have been since 1979 and steadily rose until blair got in.

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boris did a lot of good a lot of what people aren’t happy with didn’t happen was just poor reporting and journalists picking random soundbites that are only a fraction of what was actually said. When you show them evidence to the contrary they either twist it and say oh no in 1900 there was x number of hospitals per patient there fore he hasn’t added any or they simply say i don’t care and put their fingers in their ears. all the above links were found with in 5 min of googeling each subject

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I think that health and the NHS is a very important subject.
Increasing the number of nurses does not equate in any way with everything being on track, does it?
What of the promised new hospitals? On track? No.
Waiting lists? https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/sites/default/files/styles/max_1300x1300/public/2022-03/1646999655_artboard-1-copy-5-5x.png?itok=PE92rOMR
I don’t much care if there are more or less nurses.
I do care that waiting time is increasing!

No he didn’t say he was. So any promise about increasing sentences is pure hot air! Being sentenced to an extra month in the nick counts for how much if you are let out two months early!
Just shows the level of planning and joined-up thinking going on.

Come to the UK, commit crime and get a free ticket home? Are you thinking that policy through?

Thank you for the link. But I did, if you noticed, find a source from the IFS that gives a neat graph ready adjusted for inflation.

OK, more Police officers in 2023 than 2010. Good.
But is that the whole story? Fewer support staff, so cops are doing more paperwork and less coppering. Bigger population, so the ratio of police to public has decreased.

OK. And he delivered on some things and failed on others. As all Govs do.
Overall I reckon he was worse than most.

And I am here to discuss all sorts of politics especially with an upcoming election.
(June anyone?) Not just Johnson.

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Go back and look at your own graph.

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Boris’s own party dropped him after a string of shenanigans. Again I would say, no, he did not do a lot of good.

I’m not a Daily Mirror reader, but any outfit who can print a national newspaper article with the title “Boris Johnson’s 50 worst lies, gaffes and scandals” and not get taken to court because of it, cannot be telling a gigantic pack of fibs with no basis in fact

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what to reaffirm what i said??/ second highest was 146,912 in 2010 highest figure is 150,697 if you think 146,912 is bigger than 150,697 then you give me 150,697 and ill give you back 146,912 all day as many times as you want.

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if i say i am going to raise 10k by selling my tv, car, photography equipment and jewellery. and someone says to you he is going to raise 10k by selling his 12 year old ford focus they haven’t reported something i haven’t said but they haven’t reported the whole truth

i cant be bothered to go through each and every one but 80% of them look like so and o told me that so and so had an affair with my sisters mothers wifes daughter. especially regarding ■■■ scaandles look what happened to cliff richard completely innocent but hounded and critasised for 3 years