As an old driver from the pen and paper logbook days. I have all way taken p.o.a as when u have a unexpected delay or a time when say you are in a long que say 1hr or so but the times is still counted in your total day hours. But two drivers have stated you can book poa when waiting to unload at and time and the poa time is not counted in your total hrs.
Could you please shed light this point thanks
It doesn’t count as work time but does count in your daily allowence time or total time as you put it.
dogrot:
As an old driver from the pen and paper logbook days. I have all way taken p.o.a as when u have a unexpected delay or a time when say you are in a long que say 1hr or so but the times is still counted in your total day hours. But two drivers have stated you can book poa when waiting to unload at and time and the poa time is not counted in your total hrs.Could you please shed light this point thanks
I assume that by “total hours” you mean the spread-over in which case you’re right and your colleagues are wrong 
Legally you can only record POA if before going onto POA you know how long you will be waiting, so in some circumstances you could legally use it for waiting to unload.
As said POA does not count as working time but it is included in the Spread-over, so the maximum spread-over is 13 hour per shift including POA, and 15 hours including POA three times between weekly rest periods.
If POA did not count towards the total spread-over you would be able to have a total shift of over 13/15 hours, we know that’s not right because the daily rest period has to fit into the 24 hour period from the start of the shift which it wouldn’t necessarily if POA was not included in the spread-over.
POA cannot count as break or rest.
The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005:
Periods of availability
(1) A period shall not be treated as a period of availability unless the mobile worker knows before the start of the relevant period about that period of availability and its reasonably foreseeable duration.
(2) The time spent by a mobile worker, who is working as part of a team, travelling in, but not driving, a moving vehicle as part of that team shall be a period of availability for that mobile worker.
(3) Subject to paragraph (4) a period of availability shall not include a period of rest or a break.
(4) A period of availability may include a break taken by a mobile worker during waiting time or time which is not devoted to driving by the mobile worker and is spent in a moving vehicle, a ferry or a train.
If you get paid for recorded breaks then use break and forget POA
ROG:
If you get paid for recorded breaks then use break and forget POA
ROG I keep telling you by doing what you say can ■■■■ UP your day by making you have a break when you don’t need to 
nick2008:
ROG:
If you get paid for recorded breaks then use break and forget POAROG I keep telling you by doing what you say can [zb] UP your day by making you have a break when you don’t need to
In rare senarios but for the majority it will be fine
ROG:
nick2008:
ROG:
If you get paid for recorded breaks then use break and forget POAROG I keep telling you by doing what you say can [zb] UP your day by making you have a break when you don’t need to
In rare senarios but for the majority it will be fine
lets be honest Rog this job aint normal and your giving advice that can really ■■■■ up a drivers day paid breaks or not
nick2008:
ROG:
nick2008:
ROG:
If you get paid for recorded breaks then use break and forget POAROG I keep telling you by doing what you say can [zb] UP your day by making you have a break when you don’t need to
In rare senarios but for the majority it will be fine
lets be honest Rog this job aint normal and your giving advice that can really [zb] up a drivers day paid breaks or not
If the driver knows the regs then there is no issue for these very rare occasions
ROG:
nick2008:
ROG:
nick2008:
ROG:
If you get paid for recorded breaks then use break and forget POAROG I keep telling you by doing what you say can [zb] UP your day by making you have a break when you don’t need to
In rare senarios but for the majority it will be fine
lets be honest Rog this job aint normal and your giving advice that can really [zb] up a drivers day paid breaks or not
If the driver knows the regs then there is no issue for these very rare occasions
In the real world they’re not that rare though, I often find myself held up early in a day and purposely take 15-20min break and then record the rest as POA so I can take 30min later to finish my break.
Paul
Basically its all down to knowing how the rules work and then using them to advantage
Its good to know the options available and what effect they could have on other aspects
nick2008:
ROG:
nick2008:
ROG:
If you get paid for recorded breaks then use break and forget POAROG I keep telling you by doing what you say can [zb] UP your day by making you have a break when you don’t need to
In rare senarios but for the majority it will be fine
lets be honest Rog this job aint normal and your giving advice that can really [zb] up a drivers day paid breaks or not
Nick - I must be missing something. How does the cause problems?
I can see that recording a POA whilst sitting around may later mean you need to take a break and that situation may cause a problem. But if I had taken a break instead of the POA then I could soon take another break.
I must be missing something. Have you got a scenario?
shep532:
nick2008:
ROG:
nick2008:
ROG:
If you get paid for recorded breaks then use break and forget POAROG I keep telling you by doing what you say can [zb] UP your day by making you have a break when you don’t need to
In rare senarios but for the majority it will be fine
lets be honest Rog this job aint normal and your giving advice that can really [zb] up a drivers day paid breaks or not
Nick - I must be missing something. How does the cause problems?
I can see that recording a POA whilst sitting around may later mean you need to take a break and that situation may cause a problem. But if I had taken a break instead of the POA then I could soon take another break.
I must be missing something. Have you got a scenario?
There is a senario …
Driver has already taken a 15 min break after 3 hours of driving and the has to wait say 1 hour before doing a 5 hour drive back to base
If that driver uses break instead of POA for that 1 hour then they will need a 45 break to complete the last 5 hours of driving
If they use poa then they only need a 30 min break for the 5 hours because 15 + 30 will cover them
Using the 1 hour as break means they are delayed getting back by 15 mins
ROG:
There is a senario …
Driver has already taken a 15 min break after 3 hours of driving and the has to wait say 1 hour before doing a 5 hour drive back to baseIf that driver uses break instead of POA for that 1 hour then they will need a 45 break to complete the last 5 hours of driving
If they use poa then they only need a 30 min break for the 5 hours because 15 + 30 will cover them
Using the 1 hour as break means they are delayed getting back by 15 mins
Yes I see it now. So I guess the driver may be tempted to record POA even though he doesn’t know how long the period would be in advance. But of course the one thing VOSA cannot yet prove is what you ‘know’
tachograph:
POA cannot count as break or rest.
The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005:
Periods of availability
(1) A period shall not be treated as a period of availability unless the mobile worker knows before the start of the relevant period about that period of availability and its reasonably foreseeable duration.
(2) The time spent by a mobile worker, who is working as part of a team, travelling in, but not driving, a moving vehicle as part of that team shall be a period of availability for that mobile worker.
(3) Subject to paragraph (4) a period of availability shall not include a period of rest or a break.
(4) A period of availability may include a break taken by a mobile worker during waiting time or time which is not devoted to driving by the mobile worker and is spent in a moving vehicle, a ferry or a train.
Tachograph; I had to take my truck into the garage for inspection today, total time 3hr 25 mins which I recorded as POA.Was told by boss that I was free to do what I wanted whilst waiting so nipped home, garage is only round the corner from the yard. I have always been given to understand that the first 45 mins of a POA are regarded by VOSA as a break, although of course they wouldn’t show up on the tacho printout as such. Therefore I did not enter a break, and of course my visual display (Volvo FM12) reset to zero once I put my card back in.
Was I right to do this, or have I suffered from a MMTM and will therefore suffer an infringement?
I always thought the first 45 mins of POA only counted as a break if you were double manned?
Sidevalve:
tachograph:
POA cannot count as break or rest.
The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005:
Periods of availability
(1) A period shall not be treated as a period of availability unless the mobile worker knows before the start of the relevant period about that period of availability and its reasonably foreseeable duration.
(2) The time spent by a mobile worker, who is working as part of a team, travelling in, but not driving, a moving vehicle as part of that team shall be a period of availability for that mobile worker.
(3) Subject to paragraph (4) a period of availability shall not include a period of rest or a break.
(4) A period of availability may include a break taken by a mobile worker during waiting time or time which is not devoted to driving by the mobile worker and is spent in a moving vehicle, a ferry or a train.
Tachograph; I had to take my truck into the garage for inspection today, total time 3hr 25 mins which I recorded as POA.Was told by boss that I was free to do what I wanted whilst waiting so nipped home, garage is only round the corner from the yard. I have always been given to understand that the first 45 mins of a POA are regarded by VOSA as a break, although of course they wouldn’t show up on the tacho printout as such. Therefore I did not enter a break, and of course my visual display (Volvo FM12) reset to zero once I put my card back in.
Was I right to do this, or have I suffered from a MMTM and will therefore suffer an infringement?
As you was not expected to do any work you could have put the tachograph on break, in fact as you was free to do as you pleased you could have regarded the time as a paid rest period.
The first 45 minutes of POA will be counted as break when your card is in the second slot and you are sat in the passenger seat of a multi-manned vehicle.
The reason for this is because the digital tachograph cannot record break for slot 2 whilst the vehicle is moving, so the EU have decided that the first 45 minutes of POA in the circumstances I’ve described above should be regarded as break.
As this does not apply to what you was doing technically it does not count as a break, and you will most likely get an infringement if you did not record a break before exceeding 4½ hours driving time.
I don’t know if you did or not but personally I would take the card out of the tachograph whilst the vehicle is at the garage and make a manual entry when I put it back in.
tachograph:
Sidevalve:
tachograph:
POA cannot count as break or rest.
The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005:
Periods of availability
(1) A period shall not be treated as a period of availability unless the mobile worker knows before the start of the relevant period about that period of availability and its reasonably foreseeable duration.
(2) The time spent by a mobile worker, who is working as part of a team, travelling in, but not driving, a moving vehicle as part of that team shall be a period of availability for that mobile worker.
(3) Subject to paragraph (4) a period of availability shall not include a period of rest or a break.
(4) A period of availability may include a break taken by a mobile worker during waiting time or time which is not devoted to driving by the mobile worker and is spent in a moving vehicle, a ferry or a train.
Tachograph; I had to take my truck into the garage for inspection today, total time 3hr 25 mins which I recorded as POA.Was told by boss that I was free to do what I wanted whilst waiting so nipped home, garage is only round the corner from the yard. I have always been given to understand that the first 45 mins of a POA are regarded by VOSA as a break, although of course they wouldn’t show up on the tacho printout as such. Therefore I did not enter a break, and of course my visual display (Volvo FM12) reset to zero once I put my card back in.
Was I right to do this, or have I suffered from a MMTM and will therefore suffer an infringement?
As you was not expected to do any work you could have put the tachograph on break, in fact as you was free to do as you pleased you could have regarded the time as a paid rest period.
The first 45 minutes of POA will be counted as break when your card is in the second slot and you are sat in the passenger seat of a multi-manned vehicle.
The reason for this is because the digital tachograph cannot record break for slot 2 whilst the vehicle is moving, so the EU have decided that the first 45 minutes of POA in the circumstances I’ve described above should be regarded as break.As this does not apply to what you was doing technically it does not count as a break, and you will most likely get an infringement if you did not record a break before exceeding 4½ hours driving time.
I don’t know if you did or not but personally I would take the card out of the tachograph whilst the vehicle is at the garage and make a manual entry when I put it back in.
going one further you could have had that poa as REST not break giving you a split daily rest 
tachograph:
As you was not expected to do any work you could have put the tachograph on break, in fact as you was free to do as you pleased you could have regarded the time as a paid rest period.The first 45 minutes of POA will be counted as break when your card is in the second slot and you are sat in the passenger seat of a multi-manned vehicle.
The reason for this is because the digital tachograph cannot record break for slot 2 whilst the vehicle is moving, so the EU have decided that the first 45 minutes of POA in the circumstances I’ve described above should be regarded as break.As this does not apply to what you was doing technically it does not count as a break, and you will most likely get an infringement if you did not record a break before exceeding 4½ hours driving time.
I don’t know if you did or not but personally I would take the card out of the tachograph whilst the vehicle is at the garage and make a manual entry when I put it back in.
Ah, right. So it applies on double-manning only; we do a bit of that so it explains where I’ve got the wrong info from. Yes I did take the card out when the vehicle was in the garage.
Nick; good point but unnecessary in my job since a) I’m home every night and b) I don’t want to give my boss any excuse to cut my rest period to 8 hours which I think would be the case if I did as you suggested! I already get far too many 9-hour daily rests for my liking which is OK if you tramp but not so if you sleep at home.
Sidevalve:
Nick; good point but unnecessary in my job since a) I’m home every night and b) I don’t want to give my boss any excuse to cut my rest period to 8 hours which I think would be the case if I did as you suggested! I already get far too many 9-hour daily rests for my liking which is OK if you tramp but not so if you sleep at home.
Your employer cannot cut your daily rest to 8 hours, even with a split daily rest period the rest period after the shift has to be at-least 9 hours and has to fit within the 24 hour period from the start of the shift.
Split daily rest period = a rest period of at-least 3 consecutive hours during the shift and another rest period of at-least 9 consecutive hours following the shift and falling within the 24 hour period from the start of the shift.
I only use poa at the start of my shift whilst waiting for my work. I never use it whilst waiting to unload as I never know how long I’ll be waiting. I never use break/poa whilst being loaded/unloaded either. I suppose that it’s different for general haulage drivers.