Lusk:
‘… POA is there as a good tool…’
My conclusion also
Given my 48 hr week over five days with a fully compliant company and a preference for no-overtime I’ve not encountered, nor been advised of a cause to use POA.
Given that I haven’t had any infringements or rollockings from ‘upstairs’ related to it maybe suggests that POA can be little more than a lure into the murkiness of unnecessary bureaucracy for many among us.
stevieboy308:
ROG:
Lusk:
Without having POA, this can well and truly screw up your break requirements.How so?
5 hours from the yard, you’ve done 2 hours driving, you’re going to be sat for 2 hours, sticking on break means a 45 on the way back, just have a 15 then poa means a 30 on the way back
Thats what I said…but in ten times as many words 
Happy Keith:
Lusk:
‘… POA is there as a good tool…’My conclusion also
Given my 48 hr week over five days with a fully compliant company and a preference for no-overtime I’ve not encountered, nor been advised of a cause to use POA.
Given that I haven’t had any infringements or rollockings from ‘upstairs’ related to it maybe suggests that POA can be little more than a lure into the murkiness of unnecessary bureaucracy for many among us.
What you just said i could have said the same thing, i never use poa and in the last 5 years with this very compliant company i work for not once have i been told to use it and maybe because i don’t use poa is one contributing factor that i’ve had no infringements for 3 years.
As a very wise man often said, if any period of the working day qualifies for POA, it most certainly qualifies for a break too, and doesn’t screw around with your head. 
Wheel Nut:
As a very wise man often said, if any period of the working day qualifies for POA, it most certainly qualifies for a break too, and doesn’t screw around with your head.
+1
The problem i see with most of the comments here though (not the OP’s question BTW) is that a lot of them think it can work the other way round and its not the case 
Jesus bloody Christ I have a week away from the bloody madhouse,and you lot spoil it by bringing The ANTI CHRIST UP that is POA,zb he’ll I’ll be having bloody nightmares over that idiot in the office and bloody poa,that will be another week off with depression 
ROG:
fleettraineruk:
Like breaks and rest periods, a PoA can be taken at the workstation.For the EU 561/2006 regs yes but for RTD the answer seems to be no
legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005 … ion/2/made
check out the bottom few paragraphs
I’m not sure either of you understand the correct position of POA.
ROG, you have to be careful of jumping from one regulation to another willy nilly. Its true that the RTD regulations apply to mobile workers, and so one may assume all the RTD regs apply to us (as drivers) they don’t. Look carefully on 561/2006 and you will see that it defines POA as…
“availability”
defined in Article 3(b) of Directive 2002/15/EC must be recorded under this
sign <it then shows what we know as the POA symbol, a box with a diagonal line>
Here’s what Directive 2002/15/EC (3 (b))says…
‘periods of availability’ shall mean:
– periods other than those relating to break times and
rest times during which the mobile worker is not
required to remain at his workstation, but must be
available to answer any calls to start or resume driving
or to carry out other work. In particular such periods of
availability shall include periods during which the
mobile worker is accompanying a vehicle being trans-
ported by ferryboat or by train as well as periods of
waiting at frontiers and those due to traffic prohibi-
tions.
These periods and their foreseeable duration shall be
known in advance by the mobile worker, that is to say
either before departure or just before the actual start of
the period in question, or under the general conditions
negotiated between the social partners and/or under the
terms of the legislation of the Member States
Now if anyone wants to use POA when they’re waiting in an RDC, or a queue to tip or load which as i’ve said before is the actual description of working time then good luck to them.
POA is widely abused by drivers wishing to max out their hours and minimise their breaks.
POA is widely abused by employers to make drivers work more than 48 hours average per week.
POA is widely misunderstood by many.
The examples of what i have said are all on this very forum and are plain to see. Won’t take me a minute to complie you a list of “whoppers” !!! And thats even without using an easy target like you
Mike-C:
ROG:
fleettraineruk:
Like breaks and rest periods, a PoA can be taken at the workstation.For the EU 561/2006 regs yes but for RTD the answer seems to be no
legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005 … ion/2/made
check out the bottom few paragraphsI’m not sure either of you understand the correct position of POA.
ROG, you have to be careful of jumping from one regulation to another willy nilly. Its true that the RTD regulations apply to mobile workers, and so one may assume all the RTD regs apply to us (as drivers) they don’t. Look carefully on 561/2006 and you will see that it defines POA as…
“availability”
defined in Article 3(b) of Directive 2002/15/EC must be recorded under this
sign <it then shows what we know as the POA symbol, a box with a diagonal line>Here’s what Directive 2002/15/EC (3 (b))says…
‘periods of availability’ shall mean:
– periods other than those relating to break times and
rest times during which the mobile worker is not
required to remain at his workstation, but must be
available to answer any calls to start or resume driving
or to carry out other work. In particular such periods of
availability shall include periods during which the
mobile worker is accompanying a vehicle being trans-
ported by ferryboat or by train as well as periods of
waiting at frontiers and those due to traffic prohibi-
tions.
These periods and their foreseeable duration shall be
known in advance by the mobile worker, that is to say
either before departure or just before the actual start of
the period in question, or under the general conditions
negotiated between the social partners and/or under the
terms of the legislation of the Member StatesNow if anyone wants to use POA when they’re waiting in an RDC, or a queue to tip or load which as i’ve said before is the actual description of working time then good luck to them.
POA is widely abused by drivers wishing to max out their hours and minimise their breaks.
POA is widely abused by employers to make drivers work more than 48 hours average per week.
POA is widely misunderstood by many.
The examples of what i have said are all on this very forum and are plain to see. Won’t take me a minute to complie you a list of “whoppers” !!! And thats even without using an easy target like you
Sorry matey
That lot I put on here came from vosa policy office 3 weeks ago. (Copy and pasted) it. I took advice from a vosa roadside examiner who he himself wasnt sure, after going through the vosa enquiry line, they sent it to the people who tell the examiners whats what. It came from a height where the only way is down. I can pm you the email and contact at voas if you wish.
Muckaway:
Sso is a POA legit for a tipper driver being slowly loaded on site ie with a small digger, and he has a weighloader? The reason I said weighloader is that he doesn’t need to check how much is in the back physically, except look at a screen or wait for it to beep.
It would depend if you knew how long they would take to load you.
In the real world you’d have your dirty great size 10’s on your engine hump whilst reading the paper 
so your not actually doing anything, however you will at some point need to look at that on board weighing scale for a split second so you would be working in the eyes off the all mighty. I personally would stick it on break and atleast get a 15 in. If its being loaded with a 1.5 you’d even get a full 45 In 
.
Mike-C:
‘… Directive 2002/15/EC … says…’ etc, etc
If it takes such a dull document to confuse with its self-licking, EU bolleaux of legislation then the ‘directive’ clearly isn’t working for the average Briton.
Why not British rules for all those using British roads 
Happy Keith:
Mike-C:
‘… Directive 2002/15/EC … says…’ etc, etcIf it takes such a dull document to confuse with its self-licking, EU bolleaux of legislation then the ‘directive’ clearly isn’t working for the average Briton.
That is why VOSA who have been tasked to deal with it do nowt and have no sanctions in their sanctions list for any breaches
Karl86:
Muckaway:
Sso is a POA legit for a tipper driver being slowly loaded on site ie with a small digger, and he has a weighloader? The reason I said weighloader is that he doesn’t need to check how much is in the back physically, except look at a screen or wait for it to beep.It would depend if you knew how long they would take to load you.
In the real world you’d have your dirty great size 10’s on your engine hump whilst reading the paper
If you ‘know’ or expect it to take x amount of time then you can use POA. But if it goes beyond the expected time, then any time after that would be something else. You don’t need to KNOW how long it’s going to be, if you turn up and no one says to you that it will take an hour or three or 5,6,7 hours…but you regularly have a delay of say 2.5 hours, then that 2.5 hours can be POA, if it takes longer than 2.5 hours then that is not POA. As long as someone else is monitoring the load your ok
Mike-C:
ROG:
fleettraineruk:
Like breaks and rest periods, a PoA can be taken at the workstation.For the EU 561/2006 regs yes but for RTD the answer seems to be no
legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005 … ion/2/made
check out the bottom few paragraphsI’m not sure either of you understand the correct position of POA.
ROG, you have to be careful of jumping from one regulation to another willy nilly. Its true that the RTD regulations apply to mobile workers, and so one may assume all the RTD regs apply to us (as drivers) they don’t. Look carefully on 561/2006 and you will see that it defines POA as…
“availability”
defined in Article 3(b) of Directive 2002/15/EC must be recorded under this
sign <it then shows what we know as the POA symbol, a box with a diagonal line>Here’s what Directive 2002/15/EC (3 (b))says…
‘periods of availability’ shall mean:
– periods other than those relating to break times and
rest times during which the mobile worker is not
required to remain at his workstation, but must be
available to answer any calls to start or resume driving
or to carry out other work. In particular such periods of
availability shall include periods during which the
mobile worker is accompanying a vehicle being trans-
ported by ferryboat or by train as well as periods of
waiting at frontiers and those due to traffic prohibi-
tions.
These periods and their foreseeable duration shall be
known in advance by the mobile worker, that is to say
either before departure or just before the actual start of
the period in question, or under the general conditions
negotiated between the social partners and/or under the
terms of the legislation of the Member StatesNow if anyone wants to use POA when they’re waiting in an RDC, or a queue to tip or load which as i’ve said before is the actual description of working time then good luck to them.
POA is widely abused by drivers wishing to max out their hours and minimise their breaks.
POA is widely abused by employers to make drivers work more than 48 hours average per week.
POA is widely misunderstood by many.
The examples of what i have said are all on this very forum and are plain to see. Won’t take me a minute to complie you a list of “whoppers” !!! And thats even without using an easy target like you
Can we see them please?
fleettraineruk:
That lot I put on here came from vosa policy office 3 weeks ago. (Copy and pasted) it. I took advice from a vosa roadside examiner who he himself wasnt sure, after going through the vosa enquiry line, they sent it to the people who tell the examiners whats what. It came from a height where the only way is down. I can pm you the email and contact at voas if you wish.
I wouldn’t doubt it. You produced it verbatim as is, do you agree with it? Let me get this right, you’re a trainer asking a VOSA examiner and none of you know ?
This is a Jack and Jill version of lorry drivers rules what has been posted from someone high up? Its a POA if its unsafe for pedestrians or its a high value load? Its not a POA if you’re in a traffic queue ?
Honestly if someone started telling me stuff like that i’d be inclined to think that they thought i was simple.
Mike, it’s on verbatim because virtually everyone has their own opinion of it. It is what it is, the reason for speaking to an examiner was not about ‘it’ in general terms but to clear up a specific point a transport manager raised during a DCPC. The examiner and me both agreed on a course of action as laid down in the rules, (the TM was telling his drivers to use POA all the time while THEY WERE TIPPING and wouldn’t accept reason). The examiner said, ‘It might have changed, I only get told what to say by the the people who make the rules’. He advised to check on the enquiry line, (which I did), the enquiry line came back and said, ‘we’re not sure, we’ve sent it to the policy office who write the rules, they will contact you personally’ A week later, that response came back from said office and was emailed to the TM who has since complied.
I don’t profess to know everything, and can assure you I don’t. I’d have to be a right sad sod with no life, but if something comes up that might be ambiguous then I find out and forward the answer to whoever needs it.
I’m also a driving instructor, I know 90% of the rules but there’s still some things I’d have to look up. (Can’t remember EVERYTHING).
I’ve only been on here a week and found that there seems to be a small minority that feel threatened if anyone questions them? Why Rog bothers in particular is beyond me, most of the time he’s ripped to bits for minor mishaps when he gives out full explanations and helps loads of lads who either can’t be bothered or don’t know how to find the information out for themselves.
I don’t think anyones here to score points from anyone else, although I might be wrong? Someone asked a question which I believe has been answered leaving no reason to question it further, it just causes confusion. I’ll leave space here…your sure to have the last word
ROG:
Happy Keith:
Mike-C:
‘… Directive 2002/15/EC … says…’ etc, etc‘…the ‘directive’ clearly isn’t working for the average Briton…’
‘…That is why VOSA who have been tasked to deal with it do nowt and have no sanctions in their sanctions
list for any breaches…’
Then let’s recognise to address this daft situation
Perhaps each of us on here ought bleat to our constituency MP (an EU Puppet?) to action what we UK society wants and needs
to more effectively manage UK highways properly - instead of continually watch them Brown-nose to the unelected creeps in Brussels
who are federalising the UK into brain-death submission.
fleettraineruk:
Mike, it’s on verbatim because virtually everyone has their own opinion of it. It is what it is, the reason for speaking to an examiner was not about ‘it’ in general terms but to clear up a specific point a transport manager raised during a DCPC. The examiner and me both agreed on a course of action as laid down in the rules, (the TM was telling his drivers to use POA all the time while THEY WERE TIPPING and wouldn’t accept reason). The examiner said, ‘It might have changed, I only get told what to say by the the people who make the rules’. He advised to check on the enquiry line, (which I did), the enquiry line came back and said, ‘we’re not sure, we’ve sent it to the policy office who write the rules, they will contact you personally’ A week later, that response came back from said office and was emailed to the TM who has since complied.I don’t profess to know everything, and can assure you I don’t. I’d have to be a right sad sod with no life, but if something comes up that might be ambiguous then I find out and forward the answer to whoever needs it.
I’m also a driving instructor, I know 90% of the rules but there’s still some things I’d have to look up. (Can’t remember EVERYTHING).
I’ve only been on here a week and found that there seems to be a small minority that feel threatened if anyone questions them? Why Rog bothers in particular is beyond me, most of the time he’s ripped to bits for minor mishaps when he gives out full explanations and helps loads of lads who either can’t be bothered or don’t know how to find the information out for themselves.
I don’t think anyones here to score points from anyone else, although I might be wrong? Someone asked a question which I believe has been answered leaving no reason to question it further, it just causes confusion. I’ll leave space here…your sure to have the last word
You asked …it will be interesting to see who disagree’s ? I disagreed, i said why i disagreed with what was said. Its not a case of having the last word.
Happy Keith:
Mike-C:
‘… Directive 2002/15/EC … says…’ etc, etcIf it takes such a dull document to confuse with its self-licking, EU bolleaux of legislation then the ‘directive’ clearly isn’t working for the average Briton.
Why not British rules for all those using British roads
In this case Keith, i think you’ll find the EU bollox is straightforward and easy to understand…
In particular such periods of
availability shall include periods during which the
mobile worker is accompanying a vehicle being trans-
ported by ferryboat or by train as well as periods of
waiting at frontiers and those due to traffic prohibi-
tions.
Or you may prefer the British version ?..
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=106629&start=30#p1599886
Several sheets of A4
Mike-C:
Happy Keith:
Mike-C:
‘… Directive 2002/15/EC … says…’ etc, etc‘…If it takes such a dull document…’ etc
‘…In this case Keith, I think you’ll find the EU bollox is straightforward and easy to understand…’
So you’re possibly suggesting the OP is wrong to have a problem - in which case why the thread and apparent evidence of breaches of which Rog writes:
ROG:
‘…That is why VOSA who have been tasked to deal with it do nowt and have no sanctions in their sanctions list for any breaches…’
It appears that there remains is an issue to address (crystal clarity, perhaps?) but the UK has given up bothering enabling those amongst us who are not book-worm academics or liberal lovers of external and undemocratic governance from the EU.
Also may explain why the disenfranchised of the UK laconically observe that the UK is importing more financial migrant drivers from the EU than producing its own 
And they wonder why we need the dcpc. Ffs