Pigeon convoyer

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OWNER AND FLEET OPERATORS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1

Hi Guys

Anyone know the rules n regs for running a pigeon transporter, would be an 18t and only used about 20 times a year - I’m told by the guy who wants to run it (my little bruvver) that he does not need an O licence and that as he is parking it up at a farm all he needs is a maintenance contract.

Question is : Does he need to have a designated “operating” centre, an O licence and all the things that go with it and make owning a truck so much fun or is he heading for deep [zb] ?

Whats taxation class etc ?

Any owner operator pigeon convoyers out there ?

Decca591

2

I would say that the rules would be similar to operating a horsebox, namely that theoretically you do not need an Operator’s Licence if you are not using it for hire and reward and you do not stand to win prizes of value BUT I understand from other forums that VOSA search horseboxes for rosettes and consider these to be a prize of value.

3

decca591:
Hi Guys

Anyone know the rules n regs for running a pigeon transporter, would be an 18t and only used about 20 times a year - I’m told by the guy who wants to run it (my little bruvver) that he does not need an O licence and that as he is parking it up at a farm all he needs is a maintenance contract.

Question is : Does he need to have a designated “operating” centre, an O licence and all the things that go with it and make owning a truck so much fun or is he heading for deep [zb] ?

Whats taxation class etc ?

Any owner operator pigeon convoyers out there ?

Decca591

Hi Decca591,

There’s not quite enough info in your post to make a good answer, so my effort at giving you a pointer is only speaking in very general terms.
Usually, an ‘O’ licence is needed if a vehicle of >3.5t is used in connection with a trade or business.

I imagine that the pigeon racing is a hobby, so he’s possibly ok so far, but…

…an 18t vehicle will carry a very large number of pigeons, so to escape the ‘O’ licence requirements, (as I see it from the info you’ve given,) any and all pigeons carried would all have to belong to your brother.

If there’s any connection with a trade or business involved, then your brother will probably need an “own account” ‘O’ licence if all the pigeons carried are his own.

If your brother takes any form of payment for carrying other people’s pigeons, then he’ll need a “standard national” ‘O’ licence which would cover him for the payments received. This is also known as ‘hire and reward.’

Your brother will find that VOSA are very helpful when approached for advice, but it really isn’t worth running the vehicle you’ve mentioned if it isn’t 100% kosher, because if it’s discovered being operated out on the roads, it can be impounded if found to be non-compliant with ‘O’ licencing rules.

:bulb: If that happens, at least your brother won’t have the problem of how to get the cargo back to base!! :grimacing: :stuck_out_tongue:

It’s ALWAYS best to ask first. :wink:

4

Here’s a bit of an overview. I’m not quite sure why Emma’s name changes to Melissa half-way through :stuck_out_tongue:

EXAMPLES

  1. Emma has a horsebox which has a Gross Plated Weight of 7.5 tonnes. She uses it to transport her horse around the UK to shows, there is no financial gain or payment in kind for participation in the show. Melissa does not need an Operators License and she does not need to use a Tachograph.

  2. Wendy has a horsebox which has a Gross Plated Weight of 7.5 tonnes. She uses it to transport her horse around the UK to shows. So far this year she has made £20,000 in winnings and has secured sponsorship deals with several businesses. Wendy is considered to be working ‘in connection with a trade or business’ because of the sponsorships and making significant financial gain because of the prize money, therefore Wendy would need to have a Restricted Operators Licence and use a Tachograph.

  3. Lisa has a horsebox which has a Gross Plated Weight of 26 tonnes and she uses it to transport her own horses around the UK for personal use. No sponsorships are involved and the vehicle is registered to herself. Lisa would not require an Operators License but she would be required to use a tachograph due to the weight of the vehicle.

  4. Jennifer breeds horses which she then sells for financial gain or payment in kind. She transports the horses in a 7.5 tonne horsebox. Jennifer is running a business, she would need a she would need a restricted Operators License and would need to use a tachograph.

supremeproductsltd.blogspot.co.u … ce-or.html

5

Dont forget to stop every 30 miles or so and bang on the side to keep the Buggers flying or you might be overweight :smiley:

6

Wing and a prayer:
Dont forget to stop every 30 miles or so and bang on the side to keep the Buggers flying or you might be overweight :smiley:

OK, so that’s a good physics question. If all the birds did fly at once inside the lorry when it was being weighed, would the weight register as if there were no birds in there or as if the birds were sitting on their perches?? :smiley:

7

emwmarine:

Wing and a prayer:
Dont forget to stop every 30 miles or so and bang on the side to keep the Buggers flying or you might be overweight :smiley:

OK, so that’s a good physics question. If all the birds did fly at once inside the lorry when it was being weighed, would the weight register as if there were no birds in there or as if the birds were sitting on their perches?? :smiley:

Birds exert a downward force equal to their weight in order to stay aloft, therefore it would weigh the same. :stuck_out_tongue:

8

nope - unless they are attached or sitting on the vehicle they are actually not applying any downward force.

Therefore whilst in flight in their cage (assuming they can that is) the lorry will not show any gain in mass.

Do we suddenly become heavier if a bird flies over us - definitely not.

But if it sits on top of your head you increase in weight,

9

Just found that this very question has been addressed by Mythbusters.

Birds in a Truck
Myth: If birds in a truck fly, does the truck get lighter?

Story: A guy is travelling behind a big truck. Everytime the truck comes up to a bridge, the driver gets out, bangs on the side of the truck, and then proceeds to drive across. He asks the driver at a gas station why he was doing this – the driver explained that he was over the weight limit for most of the bridges, so he was banging to make the birds fly and make the truck lighter.

Newton’s 3rd Law of Motion: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Small-scale test
Adam and Jamie did their best to catch pigeons with bread and seeds, but they ended up getting two pidgeons delivered instead.

Bird Chamber 1: Adam’s first bird flying chamber was a tall clear chamber with a piece of mesh on the floor that Adam could vibrate to make the birds fly. The entire chamber was set on top of a scale to measure the weight difference when the birds fly. The vibrating mesh wasn’t enough encouragement to keep the birds in the air, which lead to Bird Chamber 2.

Bird Chamber 2: Jamie replaced Adam’s vibrating mesh floor with a rotating weed-whacker-like foam tube (not strong enough to hurt). Adam also built the camber much larger so that the birds would have more room to fly. They still had no luck keeping “Jackson” the pidgeon airborne.

R/C Helicopter test
Adam and Jamie were having enough trouble with the bird that they decided to use a R/C helicopter instead. They had their decision to switch to a helicopter validated by Ilkka Koskelo (Physicist, SFSU), who explained that both birds and helicopters are using the same physical principles to fly (i.e. Newton’s 3rd Law).

Adam bult a new rig that allowed the helicopter to lift-off but also attached it to a set of poles to keep it centered. The scale on the rig showed 52.6 regardless of whether or not the helicopter was flying on or the ground.

Full-scale test
Setup: * Small trailer rigged with a two larger versions of Jamie’s rotating foam tubes * Load cells positioned at each corner to measure the shifting trailer weight * 11lbs of pigeons. Catching the more pigeons was a mini-segment. First, Jamie tried to use Jackson and bird seed as a lure for more pigeons but had little luck. They upgraded to a pnuematic “web shooter”. The shooter fired six tennis balls that were tethered to a net. They had little luck with the web shooter as the pigeons flew away long before the net reached them. Adam and Jamie finally gave up and called the pigeon wrangler to deliver more birds.

Most of the birds stayed in the air as they released them. The measurements from the load cell had a little bit of noise but the conclusion was clear: the flying birds did not make the trailer lighter.

Helicopter test: M5 employee Chris was brought in to fly a large model R/C helicopter inside the trailer. The first helicopter myth didn’t go well – the helicopter blades hit the side of the trailer and broke. Chris retrieved another R/C helicopter and on the second test they got the result they wanted: no difference in the weight of the trailer as the helicopter took off.

busted (Newton’s Third Law is upheld)

10

you know sometimes, you wished you hadn’t asked :wink:

Thanks guys for your responses, very enlightening, if only Newton knew what he was starting !!

Back to the serious bit though, I think you have all confirmed my thoughts, as I had expected he does need an O licence as he is running it for a club, so not all are going to be his own birds, just a way to share costs. Don’t know if he could set up a not for profit business and use a restricted licence, any prizes are internal and come out of their subscriptions and birdage payments, so I assume there is someone somewhere going to make a profit, though going on past experience it probably wont be him.

Thanks again for the advice, as one of you already said, best to ask before, not after.

Cracking forum this is to keep us all out of the foul and smelly !

Decca. !

11

i used to have a unit pull pigeon trailer it was owned and maintained by north road pigeon club at Pontypool my driver used to take two guys with him they road in trailer with fully fitted out quarters on board to feed water etc …was running from south wales valleys to mid scotch.start on wed back Monday onwards…

12

it was “very” lucrative indeed… :smiley:

13

From what I can gather he has bought the truck off the club with an agreement to do the convoying for the club, but my argument is that as he has bought the truck, he now owns and runs it himself, so when he carries the clubs pigeons that is hire and reward , therefore - he needs a full O licence.

don’t see how he can without the TMcpc under his belt or someone to cover it for him, plus an operating centre, plus money in the bank to cover breakdowns, repairs etc. Buying the truck is the easy bit !

Thanks all for the replies

Decca

14

decca591:
you know sometimes, you wished you hadn’t asked :wink:

Thanks guys for your responses, very enlightening, if only Newton knew what he was starting !!

Back to the serious bit though, I think you have all confirmed my thoughts, as I had expected he does need an O licence as he is running it for a club, so not all are going to be his own birds, just a way to share costs.

Well as I see it he would not need an operators licence provided that he did not receive any money from the other club members to transport their birds.

Of course, if they then chose to hand over some money to your bro down the pub when a VOSA inspector wasn’t looking then I doubt VOSA would be any the wiser. :wink:

15

Think this last post might just put the proverbial cat amongst the pigeons :wink:

Decca

16

but the person who carries something for nothing don’t happen…you must have a operators licence…

17

He needs an O licence. , simples

18

I’m not so sure that it is that simple. The OP talks about the vehicle being used around twenty times a year, and so almost certainly it will cost far more to own than it would ever earn, even if people did contribute towards the cost of the diesel. That being the case, I would say that it wasn’t being used in connection with a trade or business, since the whole point of trading is to make a profit.

19

My advice is definitely to get the O licence, hopefully he will listen, going to cost him dearer if he don’t and he shoulda than it will if he does and he doesn’t need to.

There has to be money in it, if theres money in it then you need to be kosher !

Decca,.

20

Probably best to phone VOSA at Leeds and ask them for their view on it, a phone call is cheaper than an O licence :wink: