Out of time. now what?

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
61

You say he wasn’t far from base - where you said about him getting a taxi, how far is not far?
If it was under 15 mins, I’d have just drove back anyway and done a manual entry.

Rhythm Thief:

chester:
Of course we don’t know if that driver had been planned a 15hr day which is also illegal.
Yes, you can extend to a 15hr but you can’t be planned for one.

Is that actually illegal? I know that it’s not in the spirit of the law to plan a 15 hour day, but does it conform to the letter of the law?

No it’s not illegal to plan a 15hr day, why would it be? If it’s legal to do it, it’s legal to plan it, a 15hr day, a 10hr drive, all legal as long as you don’t exceed the number of times you do it.

Bloody drivers myths get everywhere. Next you’ll be telling me I’m breaking the law when I put my tacho on break whilst I’m tipped at some RDC (not involved in the process) :unamused:

62

Roymondo:
The Regs clearly state that the travelling time may not be regarded as Rest or Break.

So what would the driver record for a period where it cannot be rest or break?

Nothing recorded = rest

63

ROG:
Nothing recorded = rest

Where does it say that in the Regs?

I’m certainly not going to record Work while I’m chilling by the pool in my Mother-in-law’s garden. Nor is it POA as I am not available to resume work.

64

So if the letter of the regs insists that a driver cannot be taken in an employer’s vehicle ‘back to base’, then the letter of the regs allows the driver to be given a lift to a point 50 yards short of the ‘back to base’ gateway, whereupon he gets out and makes his own way on foot to collect his car, having just recently been given a lift by a kind member of the public.

65

This whole thread just goes to show how ridiculous the drivers rules are. It looks like the people who write these things up go out of their way to make them as complicated as possible in an effort to catch people out. When even the well informed guys on the forum cannot agree on what is legal and what is not, how do they expect the rest of us to get it right. You could spend 35 hrs of DCPC on this topic & still be non the wiser
As for me I have no idea of the, legally correct, way of dealing with this situation. Im guessing its happened to a fair few on here at some time & dealt with the same way. I would have insisted on being taken back to the yard in the unit or, if it was going elsewhere, picked up in another vehicle. I know this used to happen at ASDA on the odd occasion you were held up & ran out of time, if you had a load they required back at the depot. I know it happens every week at a former employer, a double manned crew run out of time in Cambridge & are met by a another driver in a van, he drives the load back to the yard & they drive themselves back. Judging by what I’ve read on here, if caught, they would get bum raped.

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67

Roymondo:

ROG:
Nothing recorded = rest

Where does it say that in the Regs?

I’m certainly not going to record Work while I’m chilling by the pool in my Mother-in-law’s garden. Nor is it POA as I am not available to resume work.

So what are you on … rest?

68

Probably a sun lounger, judging from the gorgeous unbroken blue skies we have here right now :wink:

69

alte hase:

tachograph:

scanny77:
Normally they sort something out but this time someone chose to be difficult. Still no answer though. What should the driver do according to the law? Or does the law not have an answer either? I suspect that this may be the case :unamused:

Legally travelling back to base is other work, so if he’s out of time he should have a night out.

Article 9 section 2 (EC) 561/2006

Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a
vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation, or to return
from that location, when the vehicle is neither at the driver’s
home nor at the employer’s operational centre where the
driver is normally based, shall not be counted as a rest or
break unless the driver is on a ferry or train and has access to a
bunk or couchette.

That Article 9 paragraph’s strict grammatical interpretational direction is wholly and entirely conditional upon ‘‘any time spent travelling’’… ‘‘to take charge of a vehicle’’, there is simply no reference of any kind to time spent travelling once no longer in charge of a vehicle, the state of no longer being in charge, ie; OFF DUTY, frees you of all connection to tachograph regulations, any lawyer could rip thru this paragraph’s grammatical structure like a hot knife through butter.

Being off duty you are at perfect liberty to dispose of your time freely, the interpretations being made here would deem the length of time the driver spends travelling back to home/yard, from a ‘foreign’ location after 15 hours duty, to be completely illegal, even should the driver do all the time spent travelling back to base/home by walking, really?.

The regulation is clear that travelling back from a place where the driver was in charge of a vehicle also cannot be classed as rest.

Of course a driver is free to do as he wishes in his own time, indeed a driver can go home for the night then return to the vehicle to start the next shift if he wishes, but unless he returns to the point where he left the vehicle the time travelling home would not be classed as rest.
In the OPs case the driver was told to get a taxi back, clearly the fact that the vehicle was recovered and the driver told to return by taxi was for the benefit of the employer and therefore the travelling time could not be counted as rest.

This part of the regulation is logical in every aspect and does completely comply with the spirit of the law, if travelling to or from a vehicle could be used as rest unscrupulous employers could have drivers working exceptionally long hours, travelling a couple of hours to where a vehicle is or from where a vehicle is and still doing a 13/15 hour shift on top of the travelling time.

In fact that’s pretty much what happened in the Skills Coaches case.

alte hase:
The tacho fanatics need to be made aware that, as has been stated by several senior high court judges, ‘’ the letter of the law is one thing but the spirit of the law can be quite another’', the fanatical tacho compliance brigade are completely up themselves because by being so it is them that it satisfies, not the law.

Thank you for that very rational contribution to the discussion :unamused:

70

In fact I would be on Rest. Once I arrive at my mother-in-law’s gaff (or the pub that is 100 yards from where I left the truck) then my travelling time ends and my Rest period begins. When I return to work after my Rest, the vehicle will be at the operating centre where I am usually based (it having been taken there by another driver) so this Regulation doesn’t apply.

71

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72

alte hase:
Lets be quite clear here any entity wishing to apply the letter of the law needs to show in the directive EC 561/2006 the neccessary reference to any time spent travelling post released from charge of a vehicle, ie;OFF DUTY, the directive is entirely pivotal upon ‘TO TAKE CHARGE OF A VEHICLE’ , there is no ambiguity about it,

You seem to be reading only the parts that you want to read, the regulation does not hinge entirely on taking charge of the vehicle it goes on to say “or to return from that location”.

73

tachograph:

alte hase:
Lets be quite clear here any entity wishing to apply the letter of the law needs to show in the directive EC 561/2006 the neccessary reference to any time spent travelling post released from charge of a vehicle, ie;OFF DUTY, the directive is entirely pivotal upon ‘TO TAKE CHARGE OF A VEHICLE’ , there is no ambiguity about it,

You seem to be reading only the parts that you want to read, the regulation does not hinge entirely on taking charge of the vehicle it goes on to say “or to return from that location”.

Others appear to be doing the same thing. The Regs do NOT state that the journey to/from the vehicle has to begin or end at the driver’s home (or at his usual base).

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75

Roymondo:

tachograph:

alte hase:
Lets be quite clear here any entity wishing to apply the letter of the law needs to show in the directive EC 561/2006 the neccessary reference to any time spent travelling post released from charge of a vehicle, ie;OFF DUTY, the directive is entirely pivotal upon ‘TO TAKE CHARGE OF A VEHICLE’ , there is no ambiguity about it,

You seem to be reading only the parts that you want to read, the regulation does not hinge entirely on taking charge of the vehicle it goes on to say “or to return from that location”.

Others appear to be doing the same thing. The Regs do NOT state that the journey to/from the vehicle has to begin or end at the driver’s home (or at his usual base).

Sorry I don’t understand what you mean, no-one has said a journey to the vehicle has to start or finish at the drivers home or base, but the regulations are quite clear that the travelling to or from the vehicle when it’s not at the drivers home or base cannot be classed as rest, it’s there in black and white.

This discussion is going nowhere so I can only suggest that you phone VOSA tomorrow and ask them.

76

Why would I phone VOSA to ask anything? I think it’s Rog that needs to do that as he’s the one claiming the Regs say that Rest periods must end at the same place they started.

77

Roymondo:
Why would I phone VOSA to ask anything? I think it’s Rog that needs to do that as he’s the one claiming the Regs say that Rest periods must end at the same place they started.

No, what he’s saying is that if you park a vehicle because you can’t get back to base then travel home or wherever, unless you restart the next shift from the same location the travelling time home would not count as rest.

78

No, what he actually wrote is “For the regs the journey is from base/home then back to base/home and all parts of that journey must legally be officially recorded”

And I am saying that nowhere in the Regs does it say this. The only mention of home or base is in respect of the vehicle’s location, not that of the driver.

79

Roymondo:
No, what he actually wrote is “For the regs the journey is from base/home then back to base/home and all parts of that journey must legally be officially recorded”

And I am saying that nowhere in the Regs does it say this. The only mention of home or base is in respect of the vehicle’s location, not that of the driver.

Which in reality means the same thing

I did not say that wording was IN the regs - I said FOR the regs or in other words a different way of saying the same thing

80

Whats the script with trade players then? They drop off vehicles & make their way to base/home before doing it again, how do they go on proving their movements are legal?