scanny77:
Normally they sort something out but this time someone chose to be difficult. Still no answer though. What should the driver do according to the law? Or does the law not have an answer either? I suspect that this may be the case
Legally travelling back to base is other work, so if heās out of time he should have a night out.
Article 9 section 2 (EC) 561/2006
Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a
vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation, or to return
from that location, when the vehicle is neither at the driverās
home nor at the employerās operational centre where the
driver is normally based, shall not be counted as a rest or
break unless the driver is on a ferry or train and has access to a
bunk or couchette.
I must admit, if my employers asked me to do anything which would take me up to the edge of my hours, Iād be taking my night out kit with me just in case. Itās the only sure way to be legal; the fact that the company may need the load or the truck back is not really my problem.
Tarrman:
^^^ would that be because you would of been still getting paid? Just curious. I reckon if a driver ran out if time then heād stop getting paid at the 15th hour/end of shift (if hourly paid for eg). Then if the driver wanted a lift back itās in his own time and perfectly legal?
Being paid or not has no bearing on the regs
The rules state that if not at home or base then all travelling time needs recording
If a driver stops at point A where a rest period begins then the next duty period after that rest must start at point A
Disagree. I work out of Magna Park at Lutterworth. There is no legal reason why I cannot (say) end my shift at Towcester, where I have family, and spend my Rest period there, then make my own way to Lutterworth before commencing my next shift (regardless of the length of the Rest period). Any arrangements my employer might make to get the vehicle and load back to Lutterworth (or indeed to any other location) are no concern of mine.
You might disagree but the law says differently
The journey from towcester to Lutterworth must legally be recorded
Where does it say differently? From memory, the requirement is that I am āfree to dispose of my timeā or some such. Nowhere does it say that my next shift has to start where the last one ended.
Been following this with some confusion, am i (A newbie to this game) counting my travel to and from work as my hours, or just to work? As for if i run out of hours mid way through a run, driver comes out and takes over and gives me a lift back, i take it that is also counting amongst my hours? (be it POA or rest or whatever)
I normally work a 5 day week, start Mon morning, finish either Fri afternoon or Sat Morning if on nights. I understand the basic 45 hours weekly rest,11 hours daily etc etc, but now Iām reading all this on the thread! Is there anywhere where this is written down in plain english, for dummies, preferably in crayon!!! Im beginning to question my chosen profession!!!
scanny77:
Normally they sort something out but this time someone chose to be difficult. Still no answer though. What should the driver do according to the law? Or does the law not have an answer either? I suspect that this may be the case
Simple fact either way is they dumped him at the side of the road and left him.they failed his duty of care.he could have had no phone,cash etc.i really would put in a grievence and put in a claim.the driver is also a fool of the highest order for allowing this to happen
Darktower:
Been following this with some confusion, am i (A newbie to this game) counting my travel to and from work as my hours
Travelling to and from your place of employment is done in your own time, travelling to and from work is part of your daily rest period.
Darktower:
As for if i run out of hours mid way through a run, driver comes out and takes over and gives me a lift back, i take it that is also counting amongst my hours?
If you run out of driving time another driver can take over the vehicle and you can legally travel back to base as a passenger in the truck or another vehicle.
However, if you run out of working time (your 13/15 hours are up) you cannot legally be taken back to base because the travelling time from where the vehicle is counts as other work or POA.
Darktower:
I normally work a 5 day week, start Mon morning, finish either Fri afternoon or Sat Morning if on nights. I understand the basic 45 hours weekly rest,11 hours daily etc etc, but now Iām reading all this on the thread! Is there anywhere where this is written down in plain english, for dummies, preferably in crayon!!! Im beginning to question my chosen profession!!!
You should understand that whatās being discussed here is a situation where a driver runs out of working time before getting back to base, not the usual daily or weekly rest periods.
To be honest, the bottom line is that most drivers who run out of working time before reaching base are going to either have a night out or get a lift back and keep quiet about it
Donāt lose hope mate it will all make sense eventually
Roymondo:
Nowhere does it say that my next shift has to start where the last one ended.
That is what the regs state but not in those words = see the quote from the regs which tachograph put in this thread
This was tightened up by the big skills coaches case to prevent bosses from extending the drivers day by making them do parts of a journey without coming under the regs
For the regs the journey is from base/home then back to base/home and all parts of that journey must legally be officially recorded
Whether that journey takes an hour or a week, paid or unpaid, is irrelevant
So the bottom line is that they can collect their truck but not the driver. I would have argued and either dropped the trailer and parked up in the unit or they get me back on the quiet. Being dumped would not have been the outcome. The guy in question does let people walk over him though, mainly due to being a newbie. He is learning though
Legally travelling back to base is other work, so if heās out of time he should have a night out.
Article 9 section 2 (EC) 561/2006
Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a
vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation, or to return
from that location, when the vehicle is neither at the driverās
home nor at the employerās operational centre where the
driver is normally based, shall not be counted as a rest or
break unless the driver is on a ferry or train and has access to a
bunk or couchette.
[/quote]
I wonder if this has ever be tested in court if the driver went home not back to base in his rest time as we all know he his ment to be free to dispose of his time as he sees fit,then books on at home in the morning to travel back
Iām not confident this happened how the OP said.
Common decency and a duty of care prevails.
If youāre out of driving hours then thereās no issue with a lift back to the yard in a company vehicle as far as I know.
If youāre on rest youāre allowed to dispense of your time as you see fit. So surely driving a company vehicle (non tacho) back to your PV then thereās no breech as youāve chosen to do that.
Iād see that a second unit was sent and collected the trailer leaving the original driver bobtailed at the side of the road to night out in his motor
I have described it as i understand it but even that aside, it is a situation that could arise and it would be handy to know whether a company can abandon a driver or whether they are legally obliged to provide a different means of transport or accommodation. Drivers hours state that a driver has to park up but nothing about the truck they are driving so a company can come and collect it if they want to. That being the scenario, what happens to the driver who is now a pedestrian?
Of course we donāt know if that driver had been planned a 15hr day which is also illegal.
Yes, you can extend to a 15hr but you canāt be planned for one.
We would have to have a outline of the drivers run in question in the original post,to know this though.
The difference in the place he went off duty and the place he will restart will not be any contravention of any VOSA laws, do they expect the guy to stand there for a day or night until he can come back on duty ?
I ran out of time often back there and it was always legal for me to be driven back to my base in whatever vehicle the relief driver came to me in, not only that but even though I was then off duty the company were obliged by law to either continue to pay me by the hour until I reached base or pay night out money even though I would be home.
chester:
Of course we donāt know if that driver had been planned a 15hr day which is also illegal.
Yes, you can extend to a 15hr but you canāt be planned for one.
Is that actually illegal? I know that itās not in the spirit of the law to plan a 15 hour day, but does it conform to the letter of the law?
Roymondo:
Nowhere does it say that my next shift has to start where the last one ended.
That is what the regs state but not in those words = see the quote from the regs which tachograph put in this thread
This was tightened up by the big skills coaches case to prevent bosses from extending the drivers day by making them do parts of a journey without coming under the regs
For the regs the journey is from base/home then back to base/home and all parts of that journey must legally be officially recorded
Whether that journey takes an hour or a week, paid or unpaid, is irrelevant
Nonsense. The Regs clearly state that the travelling time may not be regarded as Rest or Break. They donāt state that such time has to be officially recorded, nor do they state that it has to be regarded as working or ādutyā time - just that it cannot be regarded as Break or Rest. They do NOT state that the next shift has to begin at the same location that the preceding one ended. What I choose to do (and where I choose to go) during my Rest time is up to me - I might not even return home at all.
chester:
Of course we donāt know if that driver had been planned a 15hr day which is also illegal.
Yes, you can extend to a 15hr but you canāt be planned for one.
Is that actually illegal? I know that itās not in the spirit of the law to plan a 15 hour day, but does it conform to the letter of the law?
I might have been a little quick to mention "illegal"to plan a 15hr
I will get a definite answer though. As our company have invited VOSA/DVSA for a answer question session this week.
But surely the spirit of the law, should direct us to the right side of the law.
These benchmarks are limits not targets,
I will add to this thread next Friday after our open forum with VOSA/DVSA on Thursday. Where I shall ask this exact. Question.
chester:
Of course we donāt know if that driver had been planned a 15hr day which is also illegal.
Yes, you can extend to a 15hr but you canāt be planned for one.
Is that actually illegal? I know that itās not in the spirit of the law to plan a 15 hour day, but does it conform to the letter of the law?
I might have been a little quick to mention "illegal"to plan a 15hr
I will get a definite answer though. As our company have invited VOSA/DVSA for a answer question session this week.
But surely the spirit of the law, should direct us to the right side of the law.
These benchmarks are limits not targets,
I will add to this thread next Friday after our open forum with VOSA/DVSA on Thursday. Where I shall ask this exact. Question.
I should say, I quite agree that planners shouldnāt be planning a 15 hour day for anyone. 15 hours should, as you say, be a limit rather than a target.
Its a straight Livingston to Warrington and back. Typically a 13 hour shift (which i am now finishing on 13 1/4 hours) but it is the transport industry so delays do happen. I believe the truck bringing stock from Enfield to Warrington (part of the load goes on our trailer) was delayed which caused the delay. Defects have caused delays before where someone nighted out at carnforth but he dropped his trailer and someone collected it. That guy was an experienced driver but the newer driver is still learning and assumed he would be picked up with the truck. To be fair to him, that is usually the case
chester:
Of course we donāt know if that driver had been planned a 15hr day which is also illegal.
Yes, you can extend to a 15hr but you canāt be planned for one.
Is that actually illegal? I know that itās not in the spirit of the law to plan a 15 hour day, but does it conform to the letter of the law?
Well I was planned for a 15 this week,
Took a loaded trailer to Southfleet from Lincolnshire (started 0400) swapped trailer with a driver down there (arrived 0830).
Took empty trailer over to Northfleet, reloaded Northfleet for Thrapston after a 2 3/4 hr wait before going on a bay, left there for Thrapston at 1230, got to Thrapston at 1500, tipped Thrapston at 1620, arrived back at base at 1745, I was expected to get back all along.
