Morning all, new user here so please be kind Got a question that I think has been raised here before, but my circumstances are a bit different I think, so apologies if it’s a re-post. Basically we just bought a mobile stage, it’s a converted 7.5 ton Iveco Eurocargo with a hydraulic stage on the side, lovely vehicle. Used to be owned / used by Relentless (the energy drink) as you’ll see from the attached pic, and after them by a mobile stage hire company. It was bought with the intention for primarily using it at our own events (we run a small festival once or twice a year) to save us on hire costs, but we also intend to hire it out a few times a year to recoup our costs and cover running costs and maintenance etc.
When we bought it we were assured by the guy selling it that he had it insured as a showman’s vehicle, so we had no reason to think that would create any problems for us. On purchase we insured it with Adrian Flux, all circumstances were explained, including the showman’s vehicle part, no problem they said, and we drove it off happy as larry. 3 weeks down the line now and they are asking us for our commercial vehicle operators licence. It was my understanding that due to the showman’s vehicle categorisation, we wouldn’t require one…and in fact, for our purposes, if we did, it would probably make the whole project non-viable really.
I’ve read up as much as I can online, gov.uk and VOSA guidance etc, and all that is clear is that it’s a bit of a minefield, with several grey areas…so I thought it would make sense to ask people who walk the walk as it were. My thinking is that as we are not carrying any goods within it ‘for sale or hire’ (the vehicle itself is ‘the goods’), and that as the vehicle is clearly a ‘show vehicle’ (without it, no show), then it should be fine to categorise it as a showman’s vehicle. However, having been on the wrong side of VOSA previously with a different vehicle, we’re very keen to make sure it doesn’t happen again with this one.
I think you will get better answers from the owners section. trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=4
This one is full of new drivers like myself that know nothing [emoji6]
You could copy and paste it across yourself or ask a Mod to move it. Good luck [emoji2]
Hopefully it’s just typical insurers doing their usual box ticking exercise, but I wouldn’t know.
Showman’s vehicles are indeed exempt from O-licencing, see page 8 of the above document, which is a 2017 consultation where the issue was discussed and the exemption was retained.
For reference, it’s DVSA, no VOSA, and even vehicles not involved in “hire and reward” are often under the O-licence system in the “Restricted” category
And because you should always look for multiple sources to corroborate information,
stu675:
I think you will get better answers from the owners section. trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=4
This one is full of new drivers like myself that know nothing [emoji6]
You could copy and paste it across yourself or ask a Mod to move it. Good luck [emoji2]
Hopefully it’s just typical insurers doing their usual box ticking exercise, but I wouldn’t know.
Thanks for that and you may be right, I’ll copy and paste it across and hope I don’t get pulled up for spamming
Cheers Zac, I’d already read that first document, of the other two the first is subscription-only so I can’t access it, and the second appears to be for Northern Ireland only, although looks like it lays out much the same stipulations I’ve already read. Still confused if I’m honest
It looks (as a non-expert) like your vehicle is exempt
" a vehicle with equipment permanently attached to it for the life of that vehicle. Examples of such equipment include permanently fixed machines or appliances. Additionally, the only other goods or burden that such vehicles are allowed to carry are those essential for use in connection with that fixed equipment. As a general rule, loose tools, cooking equipment, foodstuffs, furniture or display units of any kind or other articles that are not a permanent fixture on the vehicle would not constitute goods that are essential for the use of the fixed equipment."
(So no loose tables and chairs, tools etc in the vehicle, but detachable fittings for the vehicle to be used are OK.)
But have you tried contacting them direct? Get it from the “horse`s mouth”.
“If you need further help with applying for a licence or with any other aspect of the operator licensing system, our staff are here to help – just phone the Contact Centre on 0300 123 9000.”
I also believe you are exempt, you may need to find a specialist showland insurer, does the Worlds Fair paper still publish as that was full of service companies for this sort of thing.
Did you buy that Iveco from a chap in Cornwall, if so I transported it down there from Towcester for him 6 or 7 years ago, it had done absolutely nothing and was like a new lorry in and out.
If you follow the O licence exemption, then you cannot hire it out.
Further, if you look at the definition of showman’s vehicle under testing and tax, which clarifies it further
showman’s vehicle” means a vehicle—
(a) registered under this Act in the name of a person following the business of
a travelling showman, and
(b) used solely by him for the purposes of his business and for no other
purpose
So it can’t be used by anyone else or for any other purpose. For the sake of a few£’s that you get some transport specialist legal advice. It may be exempt for your use, but as you also plan to hire it out, the exemptions are then lost and it just becomes a goods vehicle.
And your business would have to be registered as a showman’s business with all that may entail for you in other areas such as public liability ins, personal tax etc
Is only approx a grand all in for a restricted Ops anyway, (newspaper advert cost is the biggest variable) if that blows yr budget can’t be much meat in your business!
If you are trying the showmans route, you’ve gotta be a member of one of their guilds I believe.
I’m not an expert by any means but I would say you don’t come under any exemption for an O licence.
Showman’s vehicles are as I understand it for travelling fairs and circuses etc.
As you would have a base and also using it for hire or reward then I would say an O licence would be needed.
A definitive answer would be from DVSA in writing as to whether you require one or not after speaking to them about all the details on what your stage! business entails.
But as a general rule anything over 3.5tons requires an O licence unless one of the very few exemptions. Especially if for hire and reward.
At the least I’d say a restricted O licence would be required.
It’s pretty clear that the vehicle itself fits the requirements as a Showman’s Goods Vehicle for the purposes of exemption from Operator Licensing, testing etc. However, I think the stumbling block is likely to be your intention to hire it out for others to use, as part of the definition of such a vehicle restricts the exemption to the registered keeper only. Any use on the road by other people unconnected with you would not be covered by this exemption.
simcor:
But as a general rule anything over 7.5tons requires an O licence unless one of the very few exemptions. Especially if for hire and reward.
Sent from my CPH2173 using Tapatalk
I’m sure you meant almost anything over 3.5t needs an O licence
simcor:
But as a general rule anything over 7.5tons requires an O licence unless one of the very few exemptions. Especially if for hire and reward.
Sent from my CPH2173 using Tapatalk
I’m sure you meant almost anything over 3.5t needs an O licence
How does this fit in with the definition of a ‘Goods Vehicle’?
Taken from the guidance posted by Zac_A: Generally,
businesses are subject to the regime if they use vehicles above 3.5 tonnes to carry goods for hire or reward or in connection with a trade or business.
Wildy:
How does this fit in with the definition of a ‘Goods Vehicle’?
Taken from the guidance posted by Zac_A: Generally,
businesses are subject to the regime if they use vehicles above 3.5 tonnes to carry goods for hire or reward or in connection with a trade or business.
What about the bit you almost missed “ in connection with a trade or business.
Wildy:
How does this fit in with the definition of a ‘Goods Vehicle’?
Taken from the guidance posted by Zac_A: Generally,
businesses are subject to the regime if they use vehicles above 3.5 tonnes to carry goods for hire or reward or in connection with a trade or business.
What about the bit you almost missed “ in connection with a trade or business.
That is the point. You have to read the sentence as a whole. Everybody has focused on the bit you highlighted but seem to have missed the bit about carrying goods.
I take it this would be classed as mobile exhibition vehicle.
Wally Webb:
I also believe you are exempt, you may need to find a specialist showland insurer, does the Worlds Fair paper still publish as that was full of service companies for this sort of thing.
Did you buy that Iveco from a chap in Cornwall, if so I transported it down there from Towcester for him 6 or 7 years ago, it had done absolutely nothing and was like a new lorry in and out.
Indeed, we bought it off a guy in Exeter, it’s still pretty tidy now!
Acorn:
If you follow the O licence exemption, then you cannot hire it out.
Further, if you look at the definition of showman’s vehicle under testing and tax, which clarifies it further
showman’s vehicle” means a vehicle—
(a) registered under this Act in the name of a person following the business of
a travelling showman, and
(b) used solely by him for the purposes of his business and for no other
purpose
So it can’t be used by anyone else or for any other purpose. For the sake of a few£’s that you get some transport specialist legal advice. It may be exempt for your use, but as you also plan to hire it out, the exemptions are then lost and it just becomes a goods vehicle.
And your business would have to be registered as a showman’s business with all that may entail for you in other areas such as public liability ins, personal tax etc
See there’s the thing, even though we would be hiring it out to be used as a stage, that’s what we’re hiring out - the stage - not the actual vehicle. No-one else except for us would ever be ‘operating’ it, certainly never driving it. So in that regard is is being used solely by us in the pursuance of our business (our business being a mobile stage provider).
Got a question that I think has been raised here before, but my circumstances are a bit different I think, so apologies if it’s a re-post. Basically we just bought a mobile stage, it’s a converted 7.5 ton Iveco Eurocargo with a hydraulic stage on the side, lovely vehicle. Used to be owned / used by Relentless (the energy drink) as you’ll see from the attached pic, and after them by a mobile stage hire company. It was bought with the intention for primarily using it at our own events (we run a small festival once or twice a year) to save us on hire costs, but we also intend to hire it out a few times a year to recoup our costs and cover running costs and maintenance etc.
