Would just like to thank everyone for input so far, I’m still uncertain as to the best way to progress with this, as was noted above, some specialist legal advice would probably be prudent. It was also mentioned elsewhere that an exemption from the O-licence might be possible if the actual operating time of the vehicle was only a certain percentage of its use? Difficult to explain, but essentially if you spend 3 hours driving, and then the vehicle sits for 72 hours, before you then spend 3 hours driving back again, then there may be an exemption due to that small percentage of actual road use? Can’t find anything online about this though, anyone got any ideas?
dieseldave:
Zac_A:
… 2) And this is “from the horse’s mouth” so to speak
legislation.gov.uk/nidsr/20 … /schedulesIs this for Northern Ireland only?
Not sure, I fully expect there’s a similar one for GB, I was a bit pushed for time when I was posting as I was looking for multiple sources with the same info, but as I hadn’t spotted the caveat about hiring it out I would no longer expect it to be exempt.
OP seems to be hoping for a loophole where the stage and it’s hire is considered separately from the vehicle, but, bringing that argument into our arena, that’s like saying hiring out a fuel tanker could be considered as just hiring the tank, not the tank-vehicle, which obviously wouldn’t fly with the authorities. Fixed stage/fixed tank/same difference
Real_Sir_Real:
See there’s the thing, even though we would be hiring it out to be used as a stage, that’s what we’re hiring out - the stage - not the actual vehicle. No-one else except for us would ever be ‘operating’ it, certainly never driving it. So in that regard is is being used solely by us in the pursuance of our business (our business being a mobile stage provider).
I’d missed the bit where you said you would be hiring it out, I’m quite intrigued by your case, I’d really like to know what a specialist transport solicitor would say to you about this, it’s definitely worth paying for an expert opinion.
I can personally recommend christabelhallas.co.uk/
You may not be anywhere near Yorkshire but I’m sure she could do a phone/email consultation.
I’ve a feeling this is going to be a case of “hire and reward” and bring you under Standard National O-licencing - You’re hiring out your services as a mobile stage provider.
Typical showmen vehicles, eg a waltzer fitted to low loader, would be owned and ran by the showman, and the people paying to use it would be their customers. If your mobile stage was hired by, eg a band, would they be your customers in the same way? I don’t think so, to the band it would be no different to them than a hired PA system they’re using.
You wouldn’t be controlling their activities on the stage, I imagine you wouldn’t be liable if the singer went crowd surfing from your stage, whereas the guys running the waltzer would be liable for the safety of their customers.
Ok, here is the link to the legislation: Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995
Obligation to hold operator’s licence.
(1)Subject to subsection (2) and [F1sections 3A and 4], no person shall use a goods vehicle on a road for the carriage of goods—
(a)for hire or reward, or
(b)for or in connection with any trade or business carried on by him
If I were you I’d seek an opinion from the horses mouth, your area DVSA traffic office, maybe surprisingly they don’t bite and are usually only to happy to answer reasonable questions and it’s free. Of course if you were to seek their advice and then carry on and ignore them, well then they do bite.
My own thoughts worthless as they are, for your own events it’s showmans.
For hiring out with a driver/operator it would need a restricted licence, still your business of offering staging or promotional service but not hire and reward transport.
Thirdly hiring it out without a driver/operator, a minefield. If the person you hire it to doesn’t have an O licence but is judged to need one, DVSA can confiscate the vehicle permanently.
I’d call DVSA for advice and then follow it.
acd1202:
If I were you I’d seek an opinion from the horses mouth, your area DVSA traffic office, maybe surprisingly they don’t bite and are usually only to happy to answer reasonable questions and it’s free. Of course if you were to seek their advice and then carry on and ignore them, well then they do bite.My own thoughts worthless as they are, for your own events it’s showmans.
For hiring out with a driver/operator it would need a restricted licence, still your business of offering staging or promotional service but not hire and reward transport.
Thirdly hiring it out without a driver/operator, a minefield. If the person you hire it to doesn’t have an O licence but is judged to need one, DVSA can confiscate the vehicle permanently.I’d call DVSA for advice and then follow it.
How would you accept it as showman and then hire it out, which defeats the showman’s exemption!
Thanks again all for input, I messaged the previous owner in the end yesterday (and I’m about to call DVSA / VOSA for their clarification / input), but here’s what he had to say:
"Hi Neil
I contacted VOSA explained my situation to them and (they) agreed it doesn’t require an operators licence you will need to explain to VOSA how you operate make sure you tell them you only operate 100 miles from your home address and how often you go out this what I told them when they do this ask for it in writing and show it to your insurer
Hope this helps
Terry
More
Don’t forget to tell them you don’t carry goods only the stage units
Terry"
I asked him why the 100 mile limit, and he replied:
“If it you keep below 100 you don’t have to use the tecograf or that’s what I have been told”
Now he was running his mobile stage hire business as a serious commercial concern, so I imagine he really wouldn’t want any undesired attention or fines from VOSA / DVSA, our intention is less for it to be a commercial concern - in fact, it’s quite possible we might change our plans yet and just have it insured as our personal vehicle, and only use it at our own events (obviously we’d still need public liability etc). Gonna see what VOSA / DVSA have to say 
Zac_A:
Real_Sir_Real:
You wouldn’t be controlling their activities on the stage, I imagine you wouldn’t be liable if the singer went crowd surfing from your stage, whereas the guys running the waltzer would be liable for the safety of their customers.
Not sure about this, I mean, we still require public liability, and still need to adhere to standard health and safety procedures - in other words, if a band member slipped over and broke their ankle because of faulty flooring on the stage, for example, then we would be liable. I think the crowd surfing example is slightly mis-leading, as clearly that is his choice, and not down to any fault of ours. Seems to me the VOSA / DVSA part of it all is more to do with when the vehicle is actually on the road, hence the exemptions for vehicles (like showmans) that spend much more of their time stationary, and typically have much less wear and tear and present less of a risk to road users than, say, a fuel tanker.
Real_Sir_Real:
Thanks again all for input, I messaged the previous owner in the end yesterday (and I’m about to call DVSA / VOSA for their clarification / input), but here’s what he had to say:"Hi Neil
I contacted VOSA explained my situation to them and (they) agreed it doesn’t require an operators licence you will need to explain to VOSA how you operate make sure you tell them you only operate 100 miles from your home address and how often you go out this what I told them when they do this ask for it in writing and show it to your insurer
Hope this helps
TerryMore
Don’t forget to tell them you don’t carry goods only the stage units
Terry"I asked him why the 100 mile limit, and he replied:
“If it you keep below 100 you don’t have to use the tecograf or that’s what I have been told”
Now he was running his mobile stage hire business as a serious commercial concern, so I imagine he really wouldn’t want any undesired attention or fines from VOSA / DVSA, our intention is less for it to be a commercial concern - in fact, it’s quite possible we might change our plans yet and just have it insured as our personal vehicle, and only use it at our own events (obviously we’d still need public liability etc). Gonna see what VOSA / DVSA have to say
well, you’ve added a photo to the original post since I last looked at the topic. Makes things much clearer about what we are talking about. Whilst the seller’s reply mentioned VOSA - remember they ceased and became DVSA about 9 yrs ago. DVSA will usually give cautious and couched replies. For your protection, it really is worth getting legal advise, regardless of calling DVSA or not.
Even if it is exempt from O licence, you’d want to know why, and the definition of a Showman’s vehicle keeps saying that it is used SOLELY by the owner, so any idea of hiring it out negates the showman’s exemption.
You’ll need to know its weight for other things like tacho etc. Whilst it looks like it is probably built on a 7.5t GVW chassis, if it’s 7501Kgs or more, then most exemptions don’t apply. And your seller is on dodgy ground, the radius used for exemptions is NOT 100 miles but 100Kms or about 63 miles.
Real_Sir_Real:
"Hi Neil
I contacted VOSA explained my situation to them and (they) agreed it doesn’t require an operators licence you will need to explain to VOSA how you operate make sure you tell them you only operate 100 miles from your home address and how often you go out this what I told them when they do this ask for it in writing and show it to your insurer
Hope this helps
TerryMore
Don’t forget to tell them you don’t carry goods only the stage units
Terry"I asked him why the 100 mile limit, and he replied:
“If it you keep below 100 you don’t have to use the tecograf or that’s what I have been told”
Now he was running his mobile stage hire business as a serious commercial concern, so I imagine he really wouldn’t want any undesired attention or fines from VOSA / DVSA, our intention is less for it to be a commercial concern - in fact, it’s quite possible we might change our plans yet and just have it insured as our personal vehicle, and only use it at our own events (obviously we’d still need public liability etc). Gonna see what VOSA / DVSA have to say
This whole idea of “tailoring” your questions to DVSA in order to elicit a desired response is a crock of excrement, and should be triggering alarm bells.
Acorn:
well, you’ve added a photo to the original post since I last looked at the topic. Makes things much clearer about what we are talking about. Whilst the seller’s reply mentioned VOSA - remember they ceased and became DVSA about 9 yrs ago. DVSA will usually give cautious and couched replies. For your protection, it really is worth getting legal advise, regardless of calling DVSA or not.
Even if it is exempt from O licence, you’d want to know why, and the definition of a Showman’s vehicle keeps saying that it is used SOLELY by the owner, so any idea of hiring it out negates the showman’s exemption.
You’ll need to know its weight for other things like tacho etc. Whilst it looks like it is probably built on a 7.5t GVW chassis, if it’s 7501Kgs or more, then most exemptions don’t apply. And your seller is on dodgy ground, the radius used for exemptions is NOT 100 miles but 100Kms or about 63 miles.
I put the photo in the original post, so not sure whay you’ve only just seen it. I’m uncertain as to whether I should be trusting the guy I bought it off, but don’t really see why it would be in his benefit at this point to lie to me - I mean, we’ve already bought the vehicle - so I can only assume that he is telling the truth, even if he is confused about the 100 mile thing (he’s an old guy now, but his website certainly mentioned the 100 mile limit of operation, so he certainly believed that was correct even if it wasn’t).
The whole concept of hiring it out being problematic seems odd to me, what we’re really hiring out is a service which is only usable once the vehicle is parked up, same as with any showman’s vehicle. As I mentioned previously, guidance on showmans vehicles seems to suggest that one of the reasons they are exempt is because compared to most HGV, they spend relatively little time actually on the road. Their vehicles are undoubtedly being hired out (people pay to ride a waltzer, so this is hire or reward), so the exemption seems to me to be more to do with actual road use.
For the sake of clarity, I’m really not trying to bend the rules to suit my specific case (I’m sure that would never end well), rather I’m trying to make sure I fully understand the rules in the first place. If I didn’t know that the previous owner had an exemption, I wouldn’t be so keen to find out why, and if it would also apply to our usage. This seems entirely reasonable to me.
Roymondo:
[This whole idea of “tailoring” your questions to DVSA in order to elicit a desired response is a crock of excrement, and should be triggering alarm bells.
That sounds like a crock to me. Why can’t you find out what’s allowed and then adhere to complying with that?
Hi,
I thought I’d save clogging the forum. Regardless of the forum, I can only suggest you look at getting some really relevant advice to your particular circs and that will probably include legal
Advise.
I can only think that as you posted several times, that the photo may not have been in one of them.
We may gave been distracted by the showman’s vehicle, when the exhibition stand was where we could/should have been looking
What’s more of a concern, on your behalf, is that if the seller mentioned things like 100mikes rather than Kim’s, that you were not aware. That’s fine, but if as an operator you are unsure then it’s a good sign that good business says to recognise the shortfalls snd seek professional assistance.
So the 10@kms, might give a tacho exemption but it’s reliant on being under 7.5t gvw.
Relying on a forum is not ideal. If you are offered an exemption, ask for details of where it is referenced in legislation.
In any event good luck
Cheers
Andy G.
Acorn:
Hi,
I thought I’d save clogging the forum. Regardless of the forum, I can only suggest you look at getting some really relevant advice to your particular circs and that will probably include legal
Advise.
I can only think that as you posted several times, that the photo may not have been in one of them.
We may gave been distracted by the showman’s vehicle, when the exhibition stand was where we could/should have been looking
What’s more of a concern, on your behalf, is that if the seller mentioned things like 100mikes rather than Kim’s, that you were not aware. That’s fine, but if as an operator you are unsure then it’s a good sign that good business says to recognise the shortfalls snd seek professional assistance.
So the 10@kms, might give a tacho exemption but it’s reliant on being under 7.5t gvw.Relying on a forum is not ideal. If you are offered an exemption, ask for details of where it is referenced in legislation.
In any event good luck
Cheers
Andy G.
Thanks, I’ve sent an ‘official’ enquiry to the DVSA now, so hopefully should get a definitive answer soon, I’ll let you know how I get on
Finally heard back from the TCCO (not the DVSA, I’m even more confused now), and thought you might be interested to read the (IMHO) completely evasive answer that they gave me, and my reply to it. Sounds like a whole lot of passing the buck to me…
<<<WARNING LENGTHY POST ALERT!!!>>>
Hi Chris,
Thanks for getting back to me on this, all useful info, however I confess you’ve left me just as confused as I was before I mailed you! Surely it should be yourselves (or the DVSA) who are able to categorically state whether or not a given vehicle falls within the correct category for exemption - I mean, given that you know exactly what the vehicle is, and what its purpose is. It seems a bit odd that you should suggest that I seek independent legal advice, given that you are the people who define what the exemptions are and how they are applied.
I appreciate that the guidance is there for anyone to read (and to try and understand / interpret), but it seems slightly churlish to throw the ball back in my court as it were when you are the people who actually define and then apply the legislation.
Under the circumstances, and given that there was never any intention to use this vehicle for strictly commercial purposes, we can’t really justify the extra costs that would be incurred to get legal advice as you suggest, so it seems the best route is to keep the vehicle for purely personal use at our own events (ie not for hire at any point), at which point I’m sure I am correct in saying that an operator’s licence exemption would apply. Maybe you can at least definitively clarify this point?
Regards,
Neil.
On 29 Apr 2022, at 09:14, TCCO tcco@otc.gov.uk wrote:
Dear Neil Spragg
Thank you for your email of 13 April 2022 which has just been brought to my attention. As you will appreciate enquiries of this nature are sometimes complex, and that we cannot give you legal advice on the interpretation of the legislation. Although I will seek to assist you, it is only an opinion and cannot be relied upon.
What I can state generally is that a goods vehicle operator’s licence is required for the carriage of goods on a road in a goods vehicle (over 3500kg gross plated weight) for hire or reward or in connection with a trade or business. The legislation goes on to interpret the following:
“goods” includes goods or burden of any description;
“goods vehicle” means a motor vehicle constructed or adapted for use for the carriage of goods, or a trailer so constructed or adapted, but does not include a tramcar or trolley vehicle within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act 1988;
The Senior Traffic Commissioner has issued Statutory Guidance and Statutory Directions on the approach that a traffic commissioner may take in exercising their functions. This includes the following at paragraph 41 in Statutory Document No.0 on the introduction to statutory guidance and statutory directions:
“The first question is whether the operator is carrying goods. For instance, a tractor unit is a goods vehicle. A tractor unit conveying empty trailers to and from the testing station amounts to the carriage of goods because ‘goods’ includes burden of any description…The Upper Tribunal has indicated that a strict approach should be taken when applying exemptions from the requirement for an operator’s licence.”
Therefore, if the proposed vehicle falls within the above definition of a “goods vehicle” and goods are being carried in connection with a trade or business, it is likely to fall within the scope of a restricted operator’s licence. There is no exemption within the definition of a business for charities, for the purposes of operator licensing. Alternatively, if goods are being carried for hire or reward it is likely that a standard operator’s licence would be required.
Regulation 33 and Schedule 3 to the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Regulations 1995 set out the classes of vehicles for which an operator’s licence is not required, these are replicated in the Senior Traffic Commissioner’s introduction to statutory guidance and statutory directions for ease of reference – gov.uk/government/publicati … ember-2018
Any use would need to fall exclusively within an exemption for an operator’s licence to not be required. The following may be relevant to the proposed operation, paragraph 15 which states:
- A vehicle fitted with a machine, appliance, apparatus or other contrivance which is a permanent or essentially permanent fixture, provided that the only goods carried on the vehicle are
a) water, fuel, accumulators and other equipment used for the purpose of propulsion or the running of the vehicle, loose tools and loose equipment;
b) to be mixed by the machine, appliance, apparatus or contrivance with other goods not carried on the vehicle on a road in order to thrash, grade, clean or chemically treat grain;
c) to be mixed by the machine, appliance, apparatus or contrivance with other goods not carried on the vehicle in order to make fodder for animals; or
d) mud or other matter swept up from the surface of a road by the use of the machine, appliance, apparatus or other contrivance.
This exemption usually applies in cases where a machine, appliance or apparatus (e.g a crane, compressor or generator) has been fixed or bolted on to the vehicle. Any goods carried on such a vehicle must be strictly in connection with the use of such equipment, (i.e. the vehicle should effectively form a moving platform for these permanent or essentially permanent fixtures, and absolutely no goods that are not essential for the equipment to function (e.g. loose tools or other articles) should be carried on the vehicle).
This exemption would not apply in a case where articles such as additional leaflets, medical supplies, furniture, laptops, printers etc are likely to be carried which would be considered to be goods or burden. You will, therefore, need to consider whether any loose tools and equipment that are carried on the vehicle are essential for use in connection with the fixed equipment. If the loose goods carried are not essential for the use of the fixed equipment then it is likely the vehicle would fall within the scope of operator licencing.
And paragraph 22 which states:
- A showman’s goods vehicle and any trailer drawn thereby.
Paragraph 56 onwards in the above referred statutory document details when a vehicle is considered a “showman’s good vehicle” by reference to the relevant legal provisions as follows:
“Regulation 3(2) defines a “showman’s goods vehicle” as having the same meaning as in section 62 of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 and states a “showman’s goods vehicle” means a showman’s vehicle which:
(a) is a goods vehicle, and;
(b) is permanently fitted with a living van or some other special type of body or superstructure forming part of the equipment of the show of the person in whose name the vehicle is registered under this Act’.
A “showman’s vehicle” is defined as a vehicle:
(a) registered under this Act in the name of a person following the business of a travelling showman, and
(b) used solely by him for the purposes of his business and for no other purpose.”
I am not able to state how a Court might interpret whether the proposed operation falls within the above exemptions. You will need to consider whether the use falls exclusively within an exemption contained in Schedule 3 of the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Regulations 1995. If you are in any doubt over whether the exemption might apply you may wish to seek independent and informed legal advice.
You should also contact the Driver & Vehicle Standards Agency for any queries relating to drivers’ hours, driver CPC and tachograph requirements – enquiries@dvsa.gov.uk
More information on the legal requirements to operate a goods vehicle can be found at: gov.uk/being-a-goods-vehicle-operator
Yours sincerely
Chris Woodcock | Policy and Business Support Manager
For and on behalf of the Traffic Commissioner Corporate Office
Will you be trading as self employed or LTd Co?, if the latter, then I’d suggest the showman exemption can’t apply, by virtue of :
the showman’s vehicle” means a vehicle—
(a) registered under this Act in the name of a person following the business of
a travelling showman, and
(b) used solely by him for the purposes of his business and for no other
purpose
Acorn:
Will you be trading as self employed or LTd Co?, if the latter, then I’d suggest the showman exemption can’t apply, by virtue of :
the showman’s vehicle” means a vehicle—
(a) registered under this Act in the name of a person following the business of
a travelling showman, and
A limited company is a legal person.
(b) used solely by him for the purposes of his business and for no other
purpose
Are you seriously suggesting that women are not eligible for a showman’s exemption?
stu675:
… Are you seriously suggesting that women are not eligible for a showman’s exemption?
Some laws that were written many years ago use only “him,” but equality law generally says that references to “him” in such long ago written laws are to be construed in these more enlightened times as automatically meaning ‘him or her.’
That saved the lawmakers from having to edit a massive amount of older legislation retrospectively.
BTW, carrying on the business of being a <some trade/business or other> doesn’t necessarily mean that a person, or group of people, need to form a Ltd Co to do it.
dieseldave:
Some laws that were written many years ago use only “him,” but equality law generally says that references to “him” in such long ago written laws are to be construed in these more enlightened times as automatically meaning ‘him or her.’
Safe to say it probably also includes the 99 other ways that people can choose to “identify” these days 
Zac_A:
dieseldave:
Some laws that were written many years ago use only “him,” but equality law generally says that references to “him” in such long ago written laws are to be construed in these more enlightened times as automatically meaning ‘him or her.’Safe to say it probably also includes the 99 other ways that people can choose to “identify” these days
Indeed. 