Old wagon gearbox question

[mrjake]

tonyj105:

robert1952:

dave docwra:
Were the column change ones known as Romans & did these morph into MAN eventually.

Romans were Romanian-built lorries with MAN F8 cabs. I think they did have column change, but that may have been coincidental. Someone will know on here. Robert

think it was an early version of ‘badge engineering’ , ROMANs were an earlier version of what MAN were producing at the time, I seem to remember a bit of a hoohar over the parts being interchangeable, you know , fit cheap ROMAN bits to you MAN instead of the pricey MAN bits. so they’d have had the column change , and that was a bleed over from the Saviems.

The Eastern Bloc countries often bought old Western European tooling and presses from obsolete (to us) models probably the most popular and best known being the Russian Lada which were Fiat 124 and 125s from the 60s. Serbia also runs some Mercedies Truck clones but I can’t remember the model number. Ref the MAN column change (to stay on topic) I drove an ex Shippams (the meat/fish past company) from Chichester one in the 70s and the linkage was well worn, ‘Lucky Dip’ was perhaps the fairest description, that was a ZF 6 slot + splitter.

[kmills]

My Dad bought this UK spec 2800 DKS in August 1978- definitely a 13spd Fuller in this one. He was a subbie for Fransen’s at the time, and bought the Daf from Transport Commercials in Newport, who were owned by John Evans Transport - big Daf users themselves. Sorry it’s not the best photo - I was only 11 when I took it lol.

[240_gardner]

ERF:

cav551:
Going back slightly further into the mists of time there were the ‘small’ RT 609 and RTO 609 and the RT610 and RTO 610 Roadranger 'boxes fitted to the ERF A series generation.
What the designation of this smaller gearbox became when it was updated I can’t recall. Looking back through CM it roadtested a ■■■■■■■ 220 A series in spring 1972 fitted with the RTO 610 'box upon which comment was made that it was due to be superseded by the RTO 609 'box which reputedly had a wider ratio spread and lower ratio bottom gear.

Yes, the 610 and later the 609 were both offered as factory options in the AV760 AEC Mandator (where it was almost on its torque limit), ERF LV and A Series with Gardner 180 / ■■■■■■■ 220, Atkinson Borderer etc. The Fuller was fairly new to the UK then, and uptake was quite slow, although it transforms the drive of the vehicle compared to a David Brown.

The 610 became the 6610, and the 609 the 6609. Both remained in production by Eaton right through the 1980’s. The Gardner 8LXB powered Atkinson’s, ERF’s etc had the 9509 gearbox from the start.

Atkinson wouldn’t offer the “little” Fuller behind the 6LXB as, apparently, the torque output at the bottom end of the gearbox would exceed the capacity of the Kirkstall BDR axle. There was a write-up in the transport press of John Raymond’s trial of a 180-engined Borderer with an RTO-610, used for trunking between London and Bridgend in the pre-M4 era - must have been so much nicer for the night man to urge along on the A40/A48 between Witney and Bridgend.

I have a 180 with an RTO-609 (previously it had both RTO-610 and RT-610) and it absolutely transforms the wagon when compared with the 6-speed David Brown.

[frankydobo]

The gear change in the Ford D 1000 V8 engine units were often called ‘Lucky dip’ the stick did tend to float around a bit especially with worn linkage and a driver fresh in the seat often had problems, the box itself was quite sound. Franky.

[yanto36]

I drove a Leyland Constructor 2421 (A402 UDW) ex British Dredging Aggregates and that had a U shape change gearbox, 1st and 2nd normal but 3rd where 4th should have been and 4th where 3rd, took some getting used to after jumping off a normal configuration 2417 Constructor tipper!

[erf]

tonyj105:

ERF:

tonyj105:
it was only about a year old when the rtx expired, but the rto did the job , motor was run at 38 gtw all the while on steel and bricks - steel out of corby to the NW and NE then reload out of Accrington or wakefield for mostly London and the SE , and only had an l10 250 in it.

An interesting one this Tony.
The standard gearbox behind a ■■■■■■■ LT10-250 in a C Series was the RTO9609. A lighter duty 'box than the RTX11609, which was fitted to many higher power engines, the smallest in terms of ERF being the LTA10-290.
I just wonder if HCD had changed the 'box previously in your unit for some reason?

nope, brand new out of the box, B105mju, they all had the RTX box with the normal gate, he put an older rto or it could have an rt box in with the reverse 3 to 4 / 8 to 9 position after the original expired, which suited me as all the ERF’s I’d ever driven previous had the older road ranger box with the u shape change.
surprised me too as when I tried the first one that came I went straight into 'roadranger mode and tried changing up by going from 4th to 3rd , bit embarrassing that was.
I wasn’t in the workshop when the box was swapped , I was using the l10 290 / rtx , c series b723lut, which was a good tool , 26 tonne , didn’t come out of top up the M6 kind of tool , and economical , but I preferred B105

I think we have finally bottomed this one Tony.
B105 MJU was chassis number 50693, one of a pair of identical 38 tonne 38C2TRSW1 tractor units (the other being 50692 - B104 MJU) supplied via Cossington Commercials to HC Davies on the 23rd October 1984.

It was fitted (at build) with a ■■■■■■■ LT10-250 engine and Eaton Fuller RTX7609 gearbox.

I had forgotten that the smaller light duty 7609 gearbox was also supplied at this time with the RTX selector housing, giving this overdrive 'box a normal gate like the larger 11609.

My apologies for referring to this, the original C Series LT10-250 gearbox, as an RTO9609 above - my mistake, memory failure!.

When the RTX7609 failed, HC Davies fitted an older but directly interchangeable (higher torque rated capacity) RTO9509 gearbox, maintaining the overdrive gearing but giving the reversed 3rd and 4th gate positions you mention.

I also said above that the lowest power engine that ERF fitted the RTX11609 gearbox behind was the LTA10-290 - I have been reminded that it was also fitted to the ■■■■■■■ 14 Litre small cam NT240 and NT250 engines that first appeared in the B Series.

[tonyj105]

I had b105 for around 4 years and i always thought she went better with the older box, and it was better and quicker at clutchless changes. I loved that motor

[jimbo47]

so can anyone tell me about this setup .well I figure out its a 9 spd with an aux box.?

[jimbo47]

[retired_old_fart]

Ok, I’m sorry- the memory cell has given up again: Remind me of the usual sequence in changing upwards in that “Dinner Plate with Three Splits” box. I know I’ve used them (in a couple of Atkis) but I can’t remember how it went and it’s really annoying me!

[sir]

OD option was only enabled on ratios 5 - 8 thus giving 12 speeds. Add the crawler into the mix,and you have the 13 speeds.

[retired_old_fart]

Gotcha! Thanks, pal- it takes a while for details to upload into the aged brain-box!

[frankydobo]

The Eaton Twin Splitter was highly regarded by many drivers that used them, being very versatile and easy on the clutch foot, the only problem was the rather heavy gear knob that sometimes led to the stick dropping out of mesh if a road bump or two was encountered, they probably wouldn’t fare too well with the many potholes we have today! The feature of this box was the twin countershafts either side of the Mainshaft which had to be carefully aligned during a rebuild if the box had been stripped for repair, a very robust box all the same. The pics below explain the shift pattern and what was in the box. Cheers Franky.

[carryfast-yeti]

some proper gearboxes there just got my son in law a job at my place (all Daf auto’s)…i’d love to hear him playing a few tunes on those 'boxes

[punchy_dan]

carryfast-yeti:
some proper gearboxes there just got my son in law a job at my place (all Daf auto’s)…i’d love to hear him playing a few tunes on those 'boxes

There are enough muppets that cant even make a nice change on a synchromesh.

[robert1952]

Punchy Dan:

carryfast-yeti:
some proper gearboxes there just got my son in law a job at my place (all Daf auto’s)…i’d love to hear him playing a few tunes on those 'boxes

There are enough muppets that cant even make a nice change on a synchromesh.

Stood on my local roundabout waiting for someone this week and listened to the cars negotiating it. I came to the conclusion that it must be National Pick A Gear Week! Robert

[pv83]

.

[carryfast]

robert1952:

Punchy Dan:

carryfast-yeti:
some proper gearboxes there just got my son in law a job at my place (all Daf auto’s)…i’d love to hear him playing a few tunes on those 'boxes

There are enough muppets that cant even make a nice change on a synchromesh.

Stood on my local roundabout waiting for someone this week and listened to the cars negotiating it. I came to the conclusion that it must be National Pick A Gear Week! Robert

Probably the two best driver instruction videos available.

youtube.com/watch?v=8hKKzOHRTPY

youtube.com/watch?v=yU26_YNK9vA 4.12 -

[juddian]

MAN 16232’s had a 13 speed Fuller column change, nice to use once you got used to it.

Also regarding DAF 2800’s, i had a early 2800DKTD (supposedly lower power than DKS and DKSE, but would leave the lot behind) with a completely back to front box, as i recall it was the same splitter pattern 6/6) as found in 2600, with first back to the right and top far left forward, this was one of the nicest gearboxes perfectly suited to the revs i’ve ever used.

Scammel Crusaders i drove had a standard Roadranger, but for the life of me can’t recall if 3rd/4th were back to front as per SedAck 400, Routeman fitted with Gardner 180 i seem to recall having a David Brown 6 speed, but we’re going back a bloody long way now so happy to be mistaken.

One of the nicest Roadranger fitments was in Buffalo, again as per that splitter in the Daf the gearchange suited the Buffalo engine just dandy, that simple lorry could hold its own with much more exotic machinery, well till the engine blew as they did regularly.

I cut me teeth on bloody Foden 12 speeds, 4 speed box with 3 unequal ranges.
Going up you could go 1L 2L 3L 1M 1H 2M 2H 3M 3H 4M 4H, or 1L 2L 3L 4L 2M 2H etc, the S39’s with the air range shifter on the top tight of the steering column was a bit of a hard learning curve but later S40/S80 models they stuck the range shift switch on the gearstick, far nicer.

These old boxes gave a lot of pleasure and driver satisfaction once you mastered them, gears slipped in easily when you got the revs right, unlike bloody synchro things that always baulked you and were as slow in use as these modern automated manual heaps which give not one moment of lorry driving satisfaction

Eaton Twin split was the best i’ve ever used though, once you’d played your first months tunes on it and perfected use, you could barely detect any loss of progress between the changes, especially if you kept the clutch brake adjusted up properly, which too few garages did or knew how.

[carryfast]

Juddian:
regarding DAF 2800’s, i had a early 2800DKTD (supposedly lower power than DKS and DKSE, but would leave the lot behind) with a completely back to front box, as i recall it was the same splitter pattern 6/6) as found in 2600, with first back to the right and top far left forward, this was one of the nicest gearboxes perfectly suited to the revs i’ve ever used.

Co incidentally I was also confused by the stated output of the DKTD when discussing the 2800 versions fitted with the 12 speed ZF constant mesh splitter v the DKS version.While although there is a reference elsewhere that seems to suggest that it might have been possible to find the ZF 12 speed in the DKS there was also the 290 hp DKT version of the 2800 which I guess might be confusing those of us who are sure that we drove a more powerful version of the 2800 than the DKTD,also fitted with the ZF box, although not necessarily the DKS.On that note I’d also agree that there’s also no way that the 1970’s 2800 which I drove could possibly have only had the stated output of the DKTD but it did have the ZF box,although I’m not absolutely sure that it was the DKS but 290 ( DKT ) at 32 t gross max often less in our case would explain its performance.

On that note if I remember it right the ZF box was only reversed across the gate with the low gears nearest to the driver and highest away to the nearside but it did have the usual H gate pattern with 1 st/2nd to the right and forward and 11th/12th to the left and back.While like you I think it was well matched to the engine characteristics of the DAF motor and arguably at least as good to use as the 13 speed Fuller and superior to the the 9 speed fuller set up in the ATI.Although it was less forgiving than the fuller regards absolutely perfect engine and road speed matching and well timed shifts to the point where I generally drove it sequentially using all the splits up and down the box.

Although contrary to a previous description the ZF box used in the 2800 etc was the heavier S6-90 and GV90 splitter not the 80.