cav551:
This is from memory only: The RT 9509 was a direct drive top gear 'box while the RTO 9509 was an overdrive top gear 'box. This meant that internally the two highest gears swapped positions on the mainshaft, hence a different lever movement. (That is not a true technical description but one which is easy to understand). The RTX 11*09 had what was called multimesh gears IIRC, which meant more teeth in contact so greater torque capacity…
You are correct, and I apologise if my posts have been a little confusing. I should have stuck to comparing the RTO and the RTX, introducing the RT into this has confused things because that ‘direct top’ gearbox (which was never really very popular outside of Foden) was indeed always a conventional gate change pattern.
The RTX11609 was only ever available as an overdrive, albeit with a choice of ratios between the A and B versions depending on application. When the RTX11609 replaced the RTO9509 it led Foden and others into lowering their (Rockwell R180) rear axle gearing to match the gearbox, prior to this the Foden Fleetmaster was running a diff ratio of circa 3.5:1 iirc with the RT, raised to circa 4.5:1 for the RTX gearbox.
To clarify, the RTO’s reversed 3rd and 4th gear gate positions were normalised by the selector reversing linkage introduced on the RTX.
Lets not start talking about the RT11609 ‘direct top’ gearbox as it was available but very rarely specified here in the UK!.
Dieseldog66:
The Seddon Atkinson had the double ‘U’ pattern , same as the Crusader if they had the 9 speed Fuller, but they were not backwards like the early DAF 2800.
I’m curious now! I didn’t know the early 2800s had a 9-speed Fuller. I knew the Continental ones had a 13-speed Fuller (drove one). I also knew the later DKSE 2800 model had a 9-speed Fuller (UK version only - Continental version had a ZF synchro) (drove one). Robert
Our first DAF 2800 DKS bought in 1974 had a 13-Speed Fuller and also the other DAF 2800 models bought year on year up to 1980 all had the 13-Speed Fuller It was the perfect gearbox in my opinion.
Pic of our First DAF 2800 DKS It was first in Scotland a cancellation of a DAF South African order.
Going back slightly further into the mists of time there were the ‘small’ RT 609 and RTO 609 and the RT610 and RTO 610 Roadranger 'boxes fitted to the ERF A series generation.
What the designation of this smaller gearbox became when it was updated I can’t recall. Looking back through CM it roadtested a ■■■■■■■ 220 A series in spring 1972 fitted with the RTO 610 'box upon which comment was made that it was due to be superseded by the RTO 609 'box which reputedly had a wider ratio spread and lower ratio bottom gear.
cav551:
Going back slightly further into the mists of time there were the ‘small’ RT 609 and RTO 609 and the RT610 and RTO 610 Roadranger 'boxes fitted to the ERF A series generation.
What the designation of this smaller gearbox became when it was updated I can’t recall. Looking back through CM it roadtested a ■■■■■■■ 220 A series in spring 1972 fitted with the RTO 610 'box upon which comment was made that it was due to be superseded by the RTO 609 'box which reputedly had a wider ratio spread and lower ratio bottom gear.
Yes, the 610 and later the 609 were both offered as factory options in the AV760 AEC Mandator (where it was almost on its torque limit), ERF LV and A Series with Gardner 180 / ■■■■■■■ 220, Atkinson Borderer etc. The Fuller was fairly new to the UK then, and uptake was quite slow, although it transforms the drive of the vehicle compared to a David Brown.
The 610 became the 6610, and the 609 the 6609. Both remained in production by Eaton right through the 1980’s. The Gardner 8LXB powered Atkinson’s, ERF’s etc had the 9509 gearbox from the start.
My Sed Ak 400 was a sod to get out of 4th/top gear all the time I had it, it had to be knocked out of gear with the palm of my hand which was tiring after a while. It was four years old so certainly run in! The Fodens I had with the Fuller box, despite having cable change, were lovely and light once the gearbox had loosened up which took about a month. When brand new though they sometimes needed two hands to change gear, Fodens own gearboxes in comparison always had a nice light easy change from new.
This could have fooled me every time I reckon, if you are not used to it…what was the reason for such a shift pattern…?
I’ve always quite liked the slap across 'boxes, the MAN I once drove was fitted with such a 'box, always reckoned it shifted faster then the ones having a switch on the gear lever…?
Didn’t Scania had a bit of a dodgy shift pattern as well, wasn’t it on those 10 speed 'boxes…?
atlas man:
Didn’t the MANs have a column gear change, don’t what kind of box it was as I never drove one
Aye, the older one’s had a column gear change, wasn’t that fitted on the F8 series…? Probably was fited with a ZF 'box then…? Don’t know if that was due to the “unterfloor” engine…?
Er… Robert, help us out here mate
cav551:
IIRC those 1970’s DAFs with the ZF AK680 gearbox also had a reversed linkage with the lower ratios close to the driver’s seat.
I was sent to pick a 2nd hand 2800 with one of these boxes up with no instruction but ‘here are the keys,it’s all ready for you’. The first few hundred yards were quite interesting!!
pv83:
Aye, the older one’s had a column gear change, wasn’t that fitted on the F8 series…? Probably was fited with a ZF 'box then…? Don’t know if that was due to the “unterfloor” engine…?
Er… Robert, help us out here mate
J P Woods (Chukie Chickens) had a few column change MANs with a ZF in,but not an unterflur configuration.I’m fairly sure that I’ve also seen one with a 13 speed Fuller,but that was probably a picture on here somewhere.
atlas man:
Didn’t the MANs have a column gear change, don’t what kind of box it was as I never drove one
Aye, the older one’s had a column gear change, wasn’t that fitted on the F8 series…? Probably was fited with a ZF 'box then…? Don’t know if that was due to the “unterfloor” engine…?
Er… Robert, help us out here mate
I believe earlier F8 MANs did have a column change 13-speed Fuller. The ones I drove (280s and 281s) had a floor mounted Fuller - beautiful installation too! Robert
If you hopped out of an AEC Mercury unit into a Mandator then you would find 6th gear wasn’t where you were expecting it to be. They both of course had that really awkward downchange to hook crawler.
dave docwra:
Were the column change ones known as Romans & did these morph into MAN eventually.
Romans were Romanian-built lorries with MAN F8 cabs. I think they did have column change, but that may have been coincidental. Someone will know on here. Robert
dave docwra:
Were the column change ones known as Romans & did these morph into MAN eventually.
Romans were Romanian-built lorries with MAN F8 cabs. I think they did have column change, but that may have been coincidental. Someone will know on here. Robert
I have memories of the early 80s of an Irish company, blue & white but can not remember the company name, who often came off the Stranraer ferry to head down the 75, they had column change ROMANS, they seemed to have very powerful engines as it was difficult to keep up with them, but quite often the gear changes would let them down on the hills and you would catch them again.
Iirc two new constructors 6x4 on B reg arrived at our depot and each of them had fuller 9 spd with air clutch , they both had "different " shift patterns!!! and that caused many problems if you were not used to that vehicle .they solved it by swapping over with another depot that had the same “problem” ,then we had motors with the same shift pattern at 2 yards!.
tonyj105:
it was only about a year old when the rtx expired, but the rto did the job , motor was run at 38 gtw all the while on steel and bricks - steel out of corby to the NW and NE then reload out of Accrington or wakefield for mostly London and the SE , and only had an l10 250 in it.
An interesting one this Tony.
The standard gearbox behind a ■■■■■■■ LT10-250 in a C Series was the RTO9609. A lighter duty 'box than the RTX11609, which was fitted to many higher power engines, the smallest in terms of ERF being the LTA10-290.
I just wonder if HCD had changed the 'box previously in your unit for some reason?
nope, brand new out of the box, B105mju, they all had the RTX box with the normal gate, he put an older rto or it could have an rt box in with the reverse 3 to 4 / 8 to 9 position after the original expired, which suited me as all the ERF’s I’d ever driven previous had the older road ranger box with the u shape change.
surprised me too as when I tried the first one that came I went straight into 'roadranger mode and tried changing up by going from 4th to 3rd , bit embarrassing that was.
I wasn’t in the workshop when the box was swapped , I was using the l10 290 / rtx , c series b723lut, which was a good tool , 26 tonne , didn’t come out of top up the M6 kind of tool , and economical , but I preferred B105
dave docwra:
Were the column change ones known as Romans & did these morph into MAN eventually.
Romans were Romanian-built lorries with MAN F8 cabs. I think they did have column change, but that may have been coincidental. Someone will know on here. Robert
think it was an early version of ‘badge engineering’ , ROMANs were an earlier version of what MAN were producing at the time, I seem to remember a bit of a hoohar over the parts being interchangeable, you know , fit cheap ROMAN bits to you MAN instead of the pricey MAN bits. so they’d have had the column change , and that was a bleed over from the Saviems.
.they solved it by swapping over with another depot that had the same “problem” ,then we had motors with the same shift pattern at 2 yards!.