Had a bit of disagreement with the gaffer over this today.
I am currently driving coaches, but as i understand it the rules are the same for HGV & PSV apart from the time period that can be defined as “night work”.
For PSV i believe it is 0100-0500 (HGV 0000 to 0400), and if you do any “work” during that period you are restricted to 10 hours “work” in that 24 hr period.
I have a job that starts at 0200 next week, and is likely to take me over the 10 hr limit due to the nature of that particular job i.e. i won’t be able to use POA as i won’t the waiting period in advance, and i can’t put it on break as i could be called to pick up at any point once i arrive at the airport. So i have to remain with the vehicle for an undetermined period until they say i can go to the terminal to pick up.
Spoke to my gaffer about it today, and he said that he had never heard of such a regulation, basically accused me of making it up! Said he would “check it out” and get back to me.
Got back to me this evening when i finished and said he has spoke to one of our part time drivers who also does a bit of CPC training as well…apparently the 10 hr limit only applies over the “reference period” and is not applicable in a one off instance.
I tried to explain that they are getting 2 different things mixed up i.e. night worker and night working, but he was having none of it.
Am i right in my understanding of the regulation or have i got it arse about face?
You have it right, they are idiots.
However I don’t understand why you think you can’t book it as break while waiting for the call. You won’t be driving, you won’t be doing other work, you will just be sitting there waiting and dozing, or reading the paper, or playing a game on your phone, or thinking about that ■■■■ from number 21 for example and that’s break.
I guess just had it in my head that as i couldn’t just wander off and leave the vehicle it couldn’t count as break.
DonutUK:
I guess just had it in my head that as i couldn’t just wander off and leave the vehicle it couldn’t count as break.
That isn’t a factor. You could take a legal break while stuck in a traffic jam on the motorway. You are probably thinking of the free to dispose of your time thing, which doesn’t apply as that is a requirement of rest not break.
Coffeeholic:
DonutUK:
I guess just had it in my head that as i couldn’t just wander off and leave the vehicle it couldn’t count as break.
That isn’t a factor. You could take a legal break while stuck in a traffic jam on the motorway. You are probably thinking of the free to dispose of your time thing, which doesn’t apply as that is a requirement of rest not break.
Not what it seems to say in the common rules on page 35 of the psv tachograph regulations coffeeholic.
Break or rest - Covers breaks in work and daily or weekly rest periods. Drivers may
not carry out any driving or any other work. Break periods are to be
used exclusively for recuperation. During a rest period a driver must
be able to dispose freely of his time.
assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/d … report.pdf
Certainly on my DCPC we were told we couldn’t take a break in a traffic jam.
Also in the Road Transport (Working Time) Guidance notes it says:
“When taking a break, drivers may not perform anything that might be regarded as “other work” during this period.”
webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. … nce?page=7
It looks like being able to freely dispose of your time does apply to break periods because:
In article 6 of Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006 it says:
- A driver shall record as other work any time spent as described in **Article 4(e)[/size]**[/u]
[/quote]
In article 4 (e) of Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006 it says:
> ‘other work’ means all activities which are defined as working time in Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC except ‘driving’, including any work for the same or another employer, within or outside of the transport sector;
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 013:EN:PDF
In Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC it says:
> (a) “working time” shall mean: 1. in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning to the end of work, during which the mobile worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the employer and exercising his functions or activities, that is to say:
> - the time devoted to all road transport activities. These activities are, in particular, the following:
>
> (v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil the legal or regulatory obligations directly linked to the specific transport operation under way, including monitoring of loading and unloading, administrative formalities with police, customs, immigration officers etc.,
> - the times during which he cannot dispose freely of his time and is required to be at his workstation, ready to take up normal work, with certain tasks associated with being on duty, in particular during periods awaiting loading or unloading where their foreseeable duration is not known in advance, that is to say either before departure or just before the actual start of the period in question, or under the general conditions negotiated between the social partners and/or under the terms of the legislation of the Member States;
eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/s … l=guichett
@ Red Squirrel
No-one is suggesting that you can legally work during a break but if you’re sat in a traffic jam that isn’t moving there’s nothing to stop you putting the tachograph on break and sitting back and making the most of your unexpected recuperation time.
You do not have to be able to freely dispose of the time during a break, you only have to be able to use the time exclusively for recouperation which you can do sat back in the drivers seat 
Breaks are excluded from working time as you can see from this quote taken from your own link
Article 3
Definitions
~snip~
The break times referred to in Article 5, the rest times referred to in Article 6 and, without prejudice to the legislation of Member States or agreements between the social partners providing that such periods should be compensated or limited, the periods of availability referred to in (b) of this Article, shall be excluded from working time;
tachograph:
@ Red Squirrel
Taken from your own link
Article 3
Definitions
~snip~
The break times referred to in Article 5, the rest times referred to in Article 6 and, without prejudice to the legislation of Member States or agreements between the social partners providing that such periods should be compensated or limited, the periods of availability referred to in (b) of this Article, shall be excluded from working time;
Well spotted, but you should note that that section begins "2. in the case of self-employed drivers, " as opposed to “1. in the case of mobile workers”
It doesn’t necessarily mean that it works that way for moblie workers.
This is wrecking my brain now.
What’s the point in saying “A driver shall record as other work any time spent as described in Article 4(e)” if he can just put it on POA or Break■■? Those words wouldn’t then have any effect whatsoever and it would be a pointless regulation.
Tachograph you have a point and I could be wrong about it not applying to mobile workers as well, but I don’t see why they would make the rule I quote here if it was meant to be meaningless.
I think you’re reading it wrong mate, the paragraph I quoted comes after and separate to the self employed driver part (2).
tachograph:
I think you’re reading it wrong mate, the paragraph I quoted comes after and separate to the self employed driver part (2).
I had my doubts about that but I think you’re right actually.
I think it could mean though that when it says breaks and POA are excluded from working time that it’s confirming that when you’re on those two modes it doesn’t count towards working time.
I still don’t think, from the language used, that it forms part of the definition of what “working time” shall mean.
Otherwise we could just leave it on break all day long, couldn’t we.
It certainly does form part of what working time means, by stipulating that break and POA are not part of your working time it limits the working time to other work and driving
To be fair mate this confusion wouldn’t arise if there was just one set of regulations to work to rather than tachograph regulations and working time regulations 
Red Squirrel:
Coffeeholic:
DonutUK:
I guess just had it in my head that as i couldn’t just wander off and leave the vehicle it couldn’t count as break.
That isn’t a factor. You could take a legal break while stuck in a traffic jam on the motorway. You are probably thinking of the free to dispose of your time thing, which doesn’t apply as that is a requirement of rest not break.
Not what it seems to say in the common rules on page 35 of the psv tachograph regulations coffeeholic.
Break or rest - Covers breaks in work and daily or weekly rest periods. Drivers may
not carry out any driving or any other work. Break periods are to be
used exclusively for recuperation. During a rest period a driver must
be able to dispose freely of his time.
You mean exactly what it says. In a traffic jam for a while, engine off, seat reclined a little and watch the world go by, read the paper or scratch your balls. Not driving, not other work, not POA, as you don’t know the duration, so break it is because you are doing nothing but recuperating.
Red Squirrel:
Certainly on my DCPC we were told we couldn’t take a break in a traffic jam.
Yes, a lot of ■■■■■■■■ is taught on DCPC courses unfortunately.
Red Squirrel:
Also in the Road Transport (Working Time) Guidance notes it says:…
We’re talking about the tacho rules not the WTD, although it would still be legal break under the WTD because it clearly states breaks and POA are not working time.
Coffeeholic:
Red Squirrel:
Coffeeholic:
Not what it seems to say in the common rules on page 35 of the psv tachograph regulations coffeeholic.
Break or rest - Covers breaks in work and daily or weekly rest periods. Drivers may
not carry out any driving or any other work. Break periods are to be
used exclusively for recuperation. During a rest period a driver must
be able to dispose freely of his time.
You mean exactly what it says. In a traffic jam for a while, engine off, seat reclined a little and watch the world go by, read the paper or scratch your balls. Not driving, not other work, not POA, as you don’t know the duration, so break it is because you are doing nothing but recuperating.
But then you are required to be at your workstation, ready to take up normal work as described in Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC as I quoted previously. And you’re not exclusively recuperating because you’re watching the traffic. If tachograph is right with his rebuttal of my argument about the EC regs then we could leave it on break all the time and forget about the ■■■■ thing all shift. And he does have a logical point.
Red Squirrel:
But then you are required to be at your workstation, ready to take up normal work as described in Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC as I quoted previously. If tachograph is right with his rebuttal of my argument about the EC regs then we could leave it on break all the time and forget about the ■■■■ thing all shift. And he does have a logical point.
The fact that you’re at your work station ready to take up normal work makes no difference because beaks are exempted from working time and therefore not classed as other work.
Whilst in a traffic jam you could argue that you are required to be at your work station but there’s nothing in the definition of break that says you cannot be required to be at your work station, you only have to be able to spend the time exclusively for recuperation.
The fact that you’re required to stay in the cab (in a traffic jam) doesn’t mean that you can’t use the time for recuperation
You can only leave the tachograph on break or POA all day if you don’t do any “other work” or “driving” during that time, if the case is that you were not doing any work or driving all day then you certainly could leave the tachograph on break or POA all day.
tachograph:
Red Squirrel:
But then you are required to be at your workstation, ready to take up normal work as described in Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC as I quoted previously. If tachograph is right with his rebuttal of my argument about the EC regs then we could leave it on break all the time and forget about the ■■■■ thing all shift. And he does have a logical point.
The fact that you’re at your work station ready to take up normal work makes no difference because beaks are exempted from working time and therefore not classed as other work.
Whilst in a traffic jam you could argue that you are required to be at your work station but there’s nothing in the definition of break that says you cannot be required to be at your work station, you only have to be able to spend the time exclusively for recuperation.
The fact that you’re required to stay in the cab (in a traffic jam) doesn’t mean that you can’t use the time for recuperation
You can only leave the tachograph on break or POA all day if you don’t do any “other work” or “driving” during that time, if the case is that you were not doing any work or driving all day then you certainly could leave the tachograph on break or POA all day.
I think the problem could be confusing “other work” and “working time” when interpreting these regulations.
article 4 (e) of Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006 says “‘other work’ means all activities which are defined as working time in Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC except ‘driving’”
What you quoted earlier says breaks shall be excluded from working time. article 4 (e) is defining “other work” and not “working time” and it is defining it by “all activities” which are defined as working time (whether breaks are excluded from working time or not).
Red Squirrel:
Coffeeholic:
Red Squirrel:
Coffeeholic:
Not what it seems to say in the common rules on page 35 of the psv tachograph regulations coffeeholic.
Break or rest - Covers breaks in work and daily or weekly rest periods. Drivers may
not carry out any driving or any other work. Break periods are to be
used exclusively for recuperation. During a rest period a driver must
be able to dispose freely of his time.
You mean exactly what it says. In a traffic jam for a while, engine off, seat reclined a little and watch the world go by, read the paper or scratch your balls. Not driving, not other work, not POA, as you don’t know the duration, so break it is because you are doing nothing but recuperating.
But then you are required to be at your workstation, ready to take up normal work as described in Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC as I quoted previously. And you’re not exclusively recuperating because you’re watching the traffic.
Worry about the exclusive bit too much and you could never take a break because you are watching the clock to see when your break is finished or on a loading bay watching the light to see when it goes green or on a ferry listening for the announcement you have arrived in port and driver’s should return to their vehicles. All situations where you can legally take break.
I’ve taken breaks stuck in traffic jams on motorways and autobahns where I have not been watching the traffic because the seat is reclined and I am dozing and wake up when I hear the engines of the vehicles around me starting. I wasn’t driving, I wasn’t doing any other work, it couldn’t be POA because I had no idea how long I would be there so that only leaves one thing I can record the time as.
You are confusing yourself with all this talk of workstations. Forget the WTD, the EU Driver’s Hours Regulations take precedence and the definition of break for them is clear and the location of the break doesn’t come into it.
To take a break you have to first satisfy the requirements of the tacho rules and if it is a break for those then it is a break for the WTD. There is no period that doesn’t qualify as break for the tacho rules but does for the WTD, or vice versa.
Coffeeholic:
You are confusing yourself with all this talk of workstations. Forget the WTD, the EU Driver’s Hours Regulations take precedence and the definition of break for them is clear and the location of the break doesn’t come into it.
OK. WTD aside though, I was talking about the EU Driver’s hours regs when I’ve been quoting the Council Regulation (EC)561/2006 on EU drivers’ hours above. Please consider my last reply to tachograph.
Red Squirrel:
What you quoted earlier says breaks shall be excluded from working time. article 4 (e) is defining “other work” and not “working time” and it is defining it by “all activities” which are defined as working time (whether breaks are excluded from working time or not).
Other work for the tachograph regulations is defined as what counts as working time for the working time regulations, the working time regulations clearly stipulate that “break” does not count as working time therefore it does not count as other work for the tachograph regulations.
Red Squirrel:
“all activities” which are defined as working time (whether breaks are excluded from working time or not).
Nowhere does it say that the fact that breaks are excluded from working time is irrelevant if that’s what you are saying.
tachograph:
Red Squirrel:
What you quoted earlier says breaks shall be excluded from working time. article 4 (e) is defining “other work” and not “working time” and it is defining it by “all activities” which are defined as working time (whether breaks are excluded from working time or not).
Other work for the tachograph regulations is defined as what counts as working time for the working time regulations, the working time regulations clearly stipulate that “break” does not count as working time therefore it does not count as other work for the tachograph regulations.
Red Squirrel:
“all activities” which are defined as working time (whether breaks are excluded from working time or not).
Nowhere does it say that the fact that breaks are excluded from working time is irrelevant if that’s what you are saying.
It doesn’t need to say that it’s irrelevant. Why would it be relevant?
It says “all activities which are defined as working time” and doesn’t concern itself with those which are not.
Not some of activities which are defined, all of them.