Red Squirrel:
What you quoted earlier says breaks shall be excluded from working time. article 4 (e) is defining “other work” and not “working time” and it is defining it by “all activities” which are defined as working time (whether breaks are excluded from working time or not).
Other work for the tachograph regulations is defined as what counts as working time for the working time regulations, the working time regulations clearly stipulate that “break” does not count as working time therefore it does not count as other work for the tachograph regulations.
Red Squirrel:
“all activities” which are defined as working time (whether breaks are excluded from working time or not).
Nowhere does it say that the fact that breaks are excluded from working time is irrelevant if that’s what you are saying.
It doesn’t need to say that it’s irrelevant. Why would it be relevant?
It says “all activities which are defined as working time” and doesn’t concern itself with those which are not.
Not some of activities which are defined, all of them.
Breaks are not defined as working time because they’re exempted, the paragraph I quoted earlier clearly say so, if they’re exempted from working time then they are not working time
Red Squirrel:
What you quoted earlier says breaks shall be excluded from working time. article 4 (e) is defining “other work” and not “working time” and it is defining it by “all activities” which are defined as working time (whether breaks are excluded from working time or not).
Other work for the tachograph regulations is defined as what counts as working time for the working time regulations, the working time regulations clearly stipulate that “break” does not count as working time therefore it does not count as other work for the tachograph regulations.
Red Squirrel:
“all activities” which are defined as working time (whether breaks are excluded from working time or not).
Nowhere does it say that the fact that breaks are excluded from working time is irrelevant if that’s what you are saying.
It doesn’t need to say that it’s irrelevant. Why would it be relevant?
It says “all activities which are defined as working time” and doesn’t concern itself with those which are not.
Not some of activities which are defined, all of them.
Breaks are not defined as working time because they’re exempted, the paragraph I quoted earlier clearly say so, if they’re exempted from working time then they are not working time
You’re right that breaks aren’t defined as working time there because they’re exempted, but other things are and it is from those that are defined that the Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006 on EU drivers’ hours takes it definition of other work.
Red Squirrel:
“all activities which are defined as working time”
And breaks are not working time. Also ‘working time’ is not a part of 561/2006, that’s from the WTD regs. From 561/2006 we have driving, other work, break, POA and rest but no working time. So that’s this one sorted. NEXT!
Red Squirrel:
You’re right that breaks aren’t defined as working time there because they’re exempted, but other things are and it is from those that are defined that the Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006 on EU drivers’ hours takes it definition of other work.
But the definition of other work is not the issue in deciding whether a period is a break or not. The definition of break is what is important and if a period meets that definition then it’s a break. Couldn’t be more simple.
If you didn’t know anything about the regulations and wished to know whether a period could be taken as a break or not would you look in Article 4 of EC 561/2006 for the definition of other work or break?
Red Squirrel:
“all activities which are defined as working time”
And breaks are not working time, so that’s this one sorted. NEXT!
Red Squirrel:
You’re right that breaks aren’t defined as working time there because they’re exempted, but other things are and it is from those that are defined that the Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006 on EU drivers’ hours takes it definition of other work.
But the definition of other work is not the issue in deciding whether a period is a break or not. The definition of break is what is important and if a period meets that definition then it’s a break. Couldn’t be more simple.
The reason the definition of other work is an issue here is because In article 6 of Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006 on EU drivers’ hours it says:
“5. A driver shall record as other work any time spent as described in Article 4(e)”
Red Squirrel:
“all activities which are defined as working time”
And breaks are not working time, so that’s this one sorted. NEXT!
Red Squirrel:
You’re right that breaks aren’t defined as working time there because they’re exempted, but other things are and it is from those that are defined that the Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006 on EU drivers’ hours takes it definition of other work.
But the definition of other work is not the issue in deciding whether a period is a break or not. The definition of break is what is important and if a period meets that definition then it’s a break. Couldn’t be more simple.
The reason the definition of other work is an issue here is because In article 6 of Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006 on EU drivers’ hours it says:
“5. A driver shall record as other work any time spent as described in Article 4(e)”
It isn’t an issue because we are working out if something is break or not and the first step in doing that is looking at the definition of break, Article 4(d). That answers the question so there is no need to move onto Article 4(e) and it is therefore not relevant.
You are still coming at it from the wrong direction but even so you get the same answer myself and Tachograph have been saying.
You read Article 6(5) and that refers you to Article 4(e)
You read Article 4(e) and that refers you to Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC, with the warning to ignore the driving part of Article 3(a).
You read Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC, ignoring the driving bit as instructed by Article 4(e) of 561/2006, and you find that break is not work.
You almost have your answer and just need to check 561/2006 for the definition of break and on reading Article 4(d) you find that while you were sitting on the motorway for 20 minutes drinking a cup of coffee and reading the paper while waiting for the traffic to clear it does indeed qualify for break because you weren’t driving, you weren’t working and you were just recuperating with a nice cup of coffee and a look at the ■■■■■ on page 3 followed by a quick go at the crossword or Sudoku puzzle.
Sorted.
Of course you could avoid all that back and forward between the two sets of rules and just read the relevant bit, Article 4(d) of EC 561/2006 and get the answer.
Red Squirrel:
I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one coffeeholic.
Fair enough, I can’t actually speak for Tachograph but I think we can both agree you are wrong.
That’s usually one of the two signs someone has realised they have it wrong but don’t want to admit it. The other being claiming it is a grey area.
Also remember a lot of what you will have been taught on your DCPC course with regard to driver’s hours and WTD rules will be total ■■■■■■■■, so you should bear that in mind when entering this kind of discussion. If you stick religiously to what you were taught you will lose more discussions than you will win.
Red Squirrel:
I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one coffeeholic.
Fair enough, I can’t actually speak for Tachograph but I think we can both agree you are wrong.
Absolutely, there’s no doubt about it in my mind
Coffeeholic:
Also remember a lot of what you will have been taught on your DCPC course with regard to driver’s hours and WTD rules will be total ■■■■■■■■, so you should bear that in mind when entering this kind of discussion. If you stick religiously to what you were taught you will lose more discussions than you will win.
The truth of this has been shown many times in these forums.
The alleged 30 minute break before exceeding 6 hours work is a classic example of the crap some Driver CPC trainers are propagating
Red Squirrel:
I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one coffeeholic.
Fair enough, I can’t actually speak for Tachograph but I think we can both agree you are wrong.
That’s usually one of the two signs someone has realised they have it wrong but don’t want to admit it. The other being claiming it is a grey area.
Also remember a lot of what you will have been taught on your DCPC course with regard to driver’s hours and WTD rules will be total ■■■■■■■■, so you should bear that in mind when entering this kind of discussion. If you stick religiously to what you were taught you will lose more discussions than you will win.
No, I’m not entirely sure that I’m wrong. I can see where you’re coming from and your argument is that no matter which way around you look at it you get the same answer. I look at it from the way that if you must clock other work you can’t clock break at the same time and I think the regs are saying you have to clock other work as Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC gives the definitions of what are defined as working time because it doesn’t say it should be defined as whether it would be working time if you were on a break. But I’ll leave it at that.
Red Squirrel:
I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one coffeeholic.
Fair enough, I can’t actually speak for Tachograph but I think we can both agree you are wrong.
That’s usually one of the two signs someone has realised they have it wrong but don’t want to admit it. The other being claiming it is a grey area.
Also remember a lot of what you will have been taught on your DCPC course with regard to driver’s hours and WTD rules will be total ■■■■■■■■, so you should bear that in mind when entering this kind of discussion. If you stick religiously to what you were taught you will lose more discussions than you will win.
No, I’m not entirely sure that I’m wrong. I can see where you’re coming from and your argument is that no matter which way around you look at it you get the same answer.
Indeed, does that not tell you something?
Red Squirrel:
I look at it from the way that if you must clock other work you can’t clock break at the same time
No argument there, you canonly record a period as one thing, the slight exception being weekly rest where the first 9 or 11 hours is also daily rest.
Red Squirrel:
and I think the regs are saying you have to clock other work as Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC gives the definitions of what are defined as working time…
You’re still doing it, using the wrong set of rules and looking at the wrong thing. Why, when you want to know if a period is a break or not are you looking at the definition of other work and not the definition of break?
I want to know about rest I look at the definition of rest, not driving time. If I want to know about driving time I look at the definition for that not POA. If I want to know the definition of break I look for that, not the definition of other work.
And most of all when dealing with 561/2006 I don’t worry about ‘working time’ as working time is not a feature of 561/2006, we don’t even have duty time mentioned in those regs. Working time is part of the WTD where it counts driving and other work as the same thing whereas in 561/2006 they are different. Under 561/2006 we have to have breaks before exceeding defined driving limits but purely under 561/2006 we never need a break from working time, because it’s not part of 561/2006. Drive 4 hours mixed with 4 hours of other work and you haven’t committed an offence under 561/2006.
The discussion here is about a break from driving and the WTD doesn’t actually require breaks from driving. Drive for 5 hours and work for 45 minutes and no break is required for the WTD and although you would have committed an offence under the tacho rules you haven’t under the WTD rules. So if the discussion is about breaks from driving then you use the regulations that deal with that and check the requirements they lay down in Article 4.
Red Squirrel:
I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one coffeeholic.
Fair enough, I can’t actually speak for Tachograph but I think we can both agree you are wrong.
That’s usually one of the two signs someone has realised they have it wrong but don’t want to admit it. The other being claiming it is a grey area.
Also remember a lot of what you will have been taught on your DCPC course with regard to driver’s hours and WTD rules will be total ■■■■■■■■, so you should bear that in mind when entering this kind of discussion. If you stick religiously to what you were taught you will lose more discussions than you will win.
No, I’m not entirely sure that I’m wrong. I can see where you’re coming from and your argument is that no matter which way around you look at it you get the same answer.
Indeed, does that not tell you something?
Red Squirrel:
I look at it from the way that if you must clock other work you can’t clock break at the same time
No argument there, you canonly record a period as one thing, the slight exception being weekly rest where the first 9 or 11 hours is also daily rest.
Red Squirrel:
and I think the regs are saying you have to clock other work as Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC gives the definitions of what are defined as working time…
You’re still doing it, using the wrong set of rules and looking at the wrong thing. Why, when you want to know if a period is a break or not are you looking at the definition of other work and not the definition of break?
I looked at the definition of break in Article 4(d) of EC 561/2006 and here is what it says:
(d) ‘break’ means any period during which a driver may not carry out any driving or any other work and which is used exclusively for recuperation;
Other work is part of the very definition of break that you keep going on about.
Coffeeholic:
I want to know about rest I look at the definition of rest, not driving time. If I want to know about driving time I look at the definition for that not POA. If I want to know the definition of break I look for that, not the definition of other work.
If you’d have looked a bit closer you’d have seen that other work was part of that definition.
Coffeeholic:
And most of all when dealing with 561/2006 I don’t worry about ‘working time’ as working time is not a feature of 561/2006, we don’t even have duty time mentioned in those regs. Working time is part of the WTD where it counts driving and other work as the same thing whereas in 561/2006 they are different. Under 561/2006 we have to have breaks before exceeding defined driving limits but purely under 561/2006 we never need a break from working time, because it’s not part of 561/2006. Drive 4 hours mixed with 4 hours of other work and you haven’t committed an offence under 561/2006.
The discussion here is about a break from driving and the WTD doesn’t actually require breaks from driving. Drive for 5 hours and work for 45 minutes and no break is required for the WTD and although you would have committed an offence under the tacho rules you haven’t under the WTD rules. So if the discussion is about breaks from driving then you use the regulations that deal with that and check the requirements they lay down in Article 4.
It’s that article 4(e) that wants to take it’s definition for other work from the meaning of working time in Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC that’s why working time is mentioned. Don’t blame me I didn’t write it.
Red Squirrel:
I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one coffeeholic.
Fair enough, I can’t actually speak for Tachograph but I think we can both agree you are wrong.
That’s usually one of the two signs someone has realised they have it wrong but don’t want to admit it. The other being claiming it is a grey area.
Also remember a lot of what you will have been taught on your DCPC course with regard to driver’s hours and WTD rules will be total ■■■■■■■■, so you should bear that in mind when entering this kind of discussion. If you stick religiously to what you were taught you will lose more discussions than you will win.
No, I’m not entirely sure that I’m wrong. I can see where you’re coming from and your argument is that no matter which way around you look at it you get the same answer.
Indeed, does that not tell you something?
Red Squirrel:
I look at it from the way that if you must clock other work you can’t clock break at the same time
No argument there, you canonly record a period as one thing, the slight exception being weekly rest where the first 9 or 11 hours is also daily rest.
Red Squirrel:
and I think the regs are saying you have to clock other work as Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC gives the definitions of what are defined as working time…
You’re still doing it, using the wrong set of rules and looking at the wrong thing. Why, when you want to know if a period is a break or not are you looking at the definition of other work and not the definition of break?
I looked at the definition of break in Article 4(d) of EC 561/2006 and here is what it says:
(d) ‘break’ means any period during which a driver may not carry out any driving or any other work and which is used exclusively for recuperation;
Other work is part of the very definition of break that you keep going on about.
Indeed, and in the situation under discussion where the driver is just sitting there waiting for the traffic to clear, while dozing, reading or similar, he is doing no driving or other work. Therefore it’s break.
Red Squirrel:
Coffeeholic:
I want to know about rest I look at the definition of rest, not driving time. If I want to know about driving time I look at the definition for that not POA. If I want to know the definition of break I look for that, not the definition of other work.
If you’d have looked a bit closer you’d have seen that other work was part of that definition.
Yes, and the definition shows he isn’t doing other work.
Red Squirrel:
Coffeeholic:
And most of all when dealing with 561/2006 I don’t worry about ‘working time’ as working time is not a feature of 561/2006, we don’t even have duty time mentioned in those regs. Working time is part of the WTD where it counts driving and other work as the same thing whereas in 561/2006 they are different. Under 561/2006 we have to have breaks before exceeding defined driving limits but purely under 561/2006 we never need a break from working time, because it’s not part of 561/2006. Drive 4 hours mixed with 4 hours of other work and you haven’t committed an offence under 561/2006.
The discussion here is about a break from driving and the WTD doesn’t actually require breaks from driving. Drive for 5 hours and work for 45 minutes and no break is required for the WTD and although you would have committed an offence under the tacho rules you haven’t under the WTD rules. So if the discussion is about breaks from driving then you use the regulations that deal with that and check the requirements they lay down in Article 4.
It’s that article 4(e) that wants to take it’s definition for other work from the meaning of working time in Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC that’s why working time is mentioned. Don’t blame me I didn’t write it.
But ‘other work’ and ‘working time’ are still two different things, that’s why you are told to ignore the driving bit of Article 3(e). It doesn’t take it’s definition from all of the definition of working time because it says to ignore part of it. Other work is all work related tasks except driving. Working time is all work related tasks including driving. Reading, taking refreshment, dozing, day dreaming and so on are not work related tasks so are neither other work or working time.
You still just need to concentrate on the definition of break. Are you driving? No Just sitting there. Are you doing any work? No just sitting there. Are you recuperating? Yes, just sitting there doing nothing in the way of work. It’s a break then.
Coffeeholic:
But ‘other work’ and ‘working time’ are still two different things,
Yes they are.
Coffeeholic:
that’s why you are told to ignore the driving bit of Article 3(e).
No, You are told to ignore driving because driving is driving and other work is other work.
Coffeeholic:
It doesn’t take it’s definition from all of the definition of working time because it says to ignore part of it. Other work is all work related tasks except driving.
I agree with you that other work does not include driving.
Coffeeholic:
Working time is all work related tasks including driving. Reading, taking refreshment, dozing, day dreaming and so on are not work related tasks so are neither other work or working time.
So you don’t think that Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC has anything to do with the definition of other work for Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006 then despite what it says in article 4(e)?
Does one set of regs state that a break cannot be taken at a work station (lorry cab) and the other set say it can be
If that is the case then if the RTWTD is ever checked upon the driver will have to be away from the truck on break - yes?
Article 3(a)(v) of Directive 2002/15/EC talks about “the times during which he cannot dispose freely of his time and is required to be at his workstation, ready to take up normal work”
It’s not saying anything about actually having to leave the workstation.
Does one set of regs state that a break cannot be taken at a work station (lorry cab) and the other set say it can be
If that is the case then if the RTWTD is ever checked upon the driver will have to be away from the truck on break - yes?
Article 3(a)(v) of Directive 2002/15/EC talks about “the times during which he cannot dispose freely of his time and is required to be at his workstation, ready to take up normal work”
It’s not saying anything about actually having to leave the workstation.
Article 3 also states that breaks are not to be counted as working time.
Does one set of regs state that a break cannot be taken at a work station (lorry cab) and the other set say it can be
If that is the case then if the RTWTD is ever checked upon the driver will have to be away from the truck on break - yes?
Article 3(a)(v) of Directive 2002/15/EC talks about “the times during which he cannot dispose freely of his time and is required to be at his workstation, ready to take up normal work”
It’s not saying anything about actually having to leave the workstation.
Article 3 also states that breaks are not to be counted as working time.
Exactly, it’s not talking about breaks and it’s not saying that if you’re not required to be at the workstation that you have to leave it.
Does one set of regs state that a break cannot be taken at a work station (lorry cab) and the other set say it can be
If that is the case then if the RTWTD is ever checked upon the driver will have to be away from the truck on break - yes?
Article 3(a)(v) of Directive 2002/15/EC talks about “the times during which he cannot dispose freely of his time and is required to be at his workstation, ready to take up normal work”
It’s not saying anything about actually having to leave the workstation.
Article 3 also states that breaks are not to be counted as working time.
Exactly, it’s not talking about breaks and it’s not saying that if you’re not required to be at the workstation that you have to leave it.
It now appears you have argued yourself through 180° and are agreeing with us.
The OP was confused as to whether he could book the time he would be in the coach waiting for a call to go and collect his passengers and provided he isn’t doing anything work related, such as cleaning the coach, then he clearly can. It’s no different to the situation where a driver has to stay in his vehicle while being unloaded at an RDC. You don’t have to leave the vehicle, or be free to do so or be free to dispose of your time for a break. Rest yes, break no.
Coffeeholic:
It now appears you have argued yourself through 180° and are agreeing with us.
Nonsense.
Why won’t you answer the question which I asked you above:
“So you don’t think that Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC has anything to do with the definition of other work for Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006 then despite what it says in article 4(e)?”
I can’t understand where you’re taking your definition of other work from for the Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006.
Coffeeholic:
The OP was confused as to whether he could book the time he would be in the coach waiting for a call to go and collect his passengers and provided he isn’t doing anything work related, such as cleaning the coach, then he clearly can. It’s no different to the situation where a driver has to stay in his vehicle while being unloaded at an RDC. You don’t have to leave the vehicle, or be free to do so or be free to dispose of your time for a break. Rest yes, break no.
Why is it that you seem to think that the exclusion of breaks and POA in Article 3 of Directive 2002/15/EC mean that the definitions of working time given in Article 3(a) have no bearing on the definitions of other work for the Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006?
Article 4(e) of Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006 is clearly taking it’s definitions from activities which are defined as working time in Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC and not from activities which are defined as break.
With that being the case, I’m not convinced that you don’t have to be free to dispose of your time to clock break or POA for the purposes of Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006.
