098Joe:
Not sure about this one. I did 13 years and you meet people form all walks of life. There were quite a few lads with not very happy upbringings, who I guess joined to escape their situations, and for the majority of them the Army helped them sort ther lives out.
Going by that logic,assuming we had national service or conscription in the 1970’s/80’s,as someone with a happy upbringing,but a zb school life owing to a disciplinary regime based on the requirements of the working classes being seen as forces fodder,instead of then being able to choose to opt out of all that at 16,I would then have been forced to accept yet more of such zb.Added to that I then might have had the choice between either shooting someone in Ireland or bayoneting and Argentine conscript.Or at worst being shot etc myself.Or at best probably subject to a court martial for ‘insubordination’ or going AWOL in the case of being given orders which I disagreed with.All for political reasons related to the Tory cause.
As for the forces helping anyone who’s had a bad upbringing,the figures related to ex forces personnel,ending up as down and outs,or in prison,or subject to the military justice system,let alone the possibilty of ending up as a casualty in some bs politically driven ‘war’,seem to show that joining up just adds insult to their injury and is often a case of out of the frying pan into the fire for them.
IE the positive aspects of the British military also need to be set against the negative ones and ‘national service’,just like the old press gangs of King George’s red coat army and Navy, is ( would be ) one of those negative ones.
Every one is different it may be the answer for some troubled kids but not all. Spot on there carryfast about ex forces ending up in prison etc the support of ex forces personnel by the government is diabolical.
Probably a good idea, but only if the rich and privileged kids can buy there way out.
Would it be for girls as well as boys?
So who’s going to finance it, I would assume they would get some kind of pay.
Who’s going to train them, and where are they all going to be billeted ? The forces only have a small amount of trainers,( Not enough to train a nation ) and no longer have the quantity of accommodation that would be required if every youth in the nation has to show up.
The underlying situation is the fact that there are so many youths that are unemployed? and even when some of them have graduated some kind of advanced eduction they’re still unemployed as there are few jobs about that pay the kind of money that’s required to survive in today’s world. Which would suggest that there are to many people out the trying to get to few jobs (if there’re actually trying to find a job at all )
The world and its resources are being stretched to there limits and every day we hear someone bleating on about habitat destruction and how climate change is brought about by human intervention, so the obvious solution would be to reduce human breading.
I have just spent the weekend in the company of about 70 Grenadier Guards, and none of them would want any scrotes, some of them may have been when they decided to join up, but no one forced them to do it. Some of the gentlest people who I have ever drunk with, but the medals say something different
Wheel Nut:
I have just spent the weekend in the company of about 70 Grenadier Guards, and none of them would want any scrotes, some of them may have been when they decided to join up, but no one forced them to do it. Some of the gentlest people who I have ever drunk with, but the medals say something different
There’s another way of looking at the issue in that sometimes the circumstances are such that people who otherwise wouldn’t ever be interested or have chosen to join up willingly to be involved in all the forces bs or the medals,do so because they believe it’s right.Such as in the case of those who went to fight in the Spanish Civil War or joined up to fight Hitler while the British government were still negotiating with him for peace and all those who answered their call up papers willingly in WW2.
As opposed to other situations like the reasoning for WW1,Korea,the Falklands,Ireland or Afghanistan where the results of having national service/conscription would probably be as disastrous,from the government’s point of view in modern times,as the Vietnam War ended up being for the US administration.
It’s probably mainly for those motives as to why the government doesn’t want national service in that it knows that such a system would result in it being subject to far more accountability in it’s foreign policy.In that the general public are no longer as easily led in throwing away the lives of their families on pointless,unjustified,foreign campaigns as they were during WW1 for example.
I don’t think NS should be a catch all thing; I think its important to remember that most younger people are not lay about scrotes with a penchant for job centre attendance and Jeremy Kyle appearances.
However, , for those who are definitely on the wrong side of society, those who have served a term inside in a young “offenders” ( ) institution, who AGAIN commit a crime, send them for a spell in a prison run by maybe the Redcaps or recently retired personnel. Not to teach them to kill etc, but to Instill some ■■■■ self respect and discipline. It wouldn’t necessarily be expensive to set up, a large tented camp will do (which are good enough for our own current forces in Afghan). Keep them busy, lots of inspections, drill, fitness etc.
But teach them a skill too, certificates for construction or other manual work etc, welding, horticulture, tractor driving experience etc something they can use on the outside. Give them an official certificate at the end of their course, something they can be proud of. Also let them have a passing out parade at the end.
bazza123:
I don’t think NS should be a catch all thing; I think its important to remember that most younger people are not lay about scrotes with a penchant for job centre attendance and Jeremy Kyle appearances.
However, , for those who are definitely on the wrong side of society, those who have served a term inside in a young “offenders” ( ) institution, who AGAIN commit a crime, send them for a spell in a prison run by maybe the Redcaps or recently retired personnel. Not to teach them to kill etc, but to Instill some ■■■■ self respect and discipline. It wouldn’t necessarily be expensive to set up, a large tented camp will do (which are good enough for our own current forces in Afghan). Keep them busy, lots of inspections, drill, fitness etc.
But teach them a skill too, certificates for construction or other manual work etc, welding, horticulture, tractor driving experience etc something they can use on the outside. Give them an official certificate at the end of their course, something they can be proud of. Also let them have a passing out parade at the end.
Maybe the money can some from the Justice budget.
I’d love to see this.
I think you’ve missed the ironic fact that a considerable proportion of those who’ve served in the forces actually end up unemployed and on the streets or in civilian prisons.Self respect and discipline isn’t something that can be knocked into someone or miraculously programmed into them under a prison type regime.The idea that there’s any link whatsoever between so called ‘discipline’ and criminal actions and motivation is just Tory ideological bs.
bazza123:
I don’t think NS should be a catch all thing; I think its important to remember that most younger people are not lay about scrotes with a penchant for job centre attendance and Jeremy Kyle appearances.
However, , for those who are definitely on the wrong side of society, those who have served a term inside in a young “offenders” ( ) institution, who AGAIN commit a crime, send them for a spell in a prison run by maybe the Redcaps or recently retired personnel. Not to teach them to kill etc, but to Instill some ■■■■ self respect and discipline. It wouldn’t necessarily be expensive to set up, a large tented camp will do (which are good enough for our own current forces in Afghan). Keep them busy, lots of inspections, drill, fitness etc.
But teach them a skill too, certificates for construction or other manual work etc, welding, horticulture, tractor driving experience etc something they can use on the outside. Give them an official certificate at the end of their course, something they can be proud of. Also let them have a passing out parade at the end.
Maybe the money can some from the Justice budget.
I’d love to see this.
I think you’ve missed the ironic fact that a considerable proportion of those who’ve served in the forces actually end up unemployed and on the streets or in civilian prisons.Self respect and discipline isn’t something that can be knocked into someone or miraculously programmed into them under a prison type regime.The idea that there’s any link whatsoever between so called ‘discipline’ and criminal actions and motivation is just Tory ideological bs.
I disagree mate. A lot of these scrotes have no self respect as well as no respect for anyone else; let the respect themselves for a start by letting them achieve something for themselves. Give them routine and consistency in their day to day life, and see what happens.
Of course they need to be detoxed properly too, obviously drugs are linked to a lot of crimes. I also believe you can instill discipline into someone too.
I also think you need to remember that while a proportion of prisoners are ex forces, not all ex forces or anything like end up in prison! There is a subtle difference. When you think of this country, with maybe 70m odd people in it, many hundreds of thousands or even millions of people covering all age groups and both sexes have had some contact with HM armed forces, be it national service, called up in WW2 or even Army cadets! Most of those people haven’t been inside.
I can think of twelve people who I know personally who have served, most don’t know each other, none have done porridge. A very small sample, but the point stands. I understand a disproportionate number of prisoners are ex Forces, but you infer most Forces will end up inside, which is not the case.
bazza123:
I don’t think NS should be a catch all thing; I think its important to remember that most younger people are not lay about scrotes with a penchant for job centre attendance and Jeremy Kyle appearances.
However, , for those who are definitely on the wrong side of society, those who have served a term inside in a young “offenders” ( ) institution, who AGAIN commit a crime, send them for a spell in a prison run by maybe the Redcaps or recently retired personnel. Not to teach them to kill etc, but to Instill some ■■■■ self respect and discipline. It wouldn’t necessarily be expensive to set up, a large tented camp will do (which are good enough for our own current forces in Afghan). Keep them busy, lots of inspections, drill, fitness etc.
But teach them a skill too, certificates for construction or other manual work etc, welding, horticulture, tractor driving experience etc something they can use on the outside. Give them an official certificate at the end of their course, something they can be proud of. Also let them have a passing out parade at the end.
Maybe the money can some from the Justice budget.
I’d love to see this.
I think you’ve missed the ironic fact that a considerable proportion of those who’ve served in the forces actually end up unemployed and on the streets or in civilian prisons.Self respect and discipline isn’t something that can be knocked into someone or miraculously programmed into them under a prison type regime.The idea that there’s any link whatsoever between so called ‘discipline’ and criminal actions and motivation is just Tory ideological bs.
I disagree mate. A lot of these scrotes have no self respect as well as no respect for anyone else; let the respect themselves for a start by letting them achieve something for themselves. Give them routine and consistency in their day to day life, and see what happens.
Of course they need to be detoxed properly too, obviously drugs are linked to a lot of crimes. I also believe you can instill discipline into someone too.
I also think you need to remember that while a proportion of prisoners are ex forces, not all ex forces or anything like end up in prison! There is a subtle difference. When you think of this country, with maybe 70m odd people in it, many hundreds of thousands or even millions of people covering all age groups and both sexes have had some contact with HM armed forces, be it national service, called up in WW2 or even Army cadets! Most of those people haven’t been inside.
I can think of twelve people who I know personally who have served, most don’t know each other, none have done porridge. A very small sample, but the point stands. I understand a disproportionate number of prisoners are ex Forces, but you infer most Forces will end up inside, which is not the case.
My point was that around the same,if not larger,proportion of forces end up in jail as the general civilian public.Military discipline is mainly all about the acceptance of indoctrination in the government line and following orders without question as in the case of those WW1 conscripts. Not stopping criminal intent in the form of drug dealers or armed robbers etc.
The two issues are totally unrelated just as they were in the case of those WW2 conscripts who joined up because they had to not because they needed forces discipline,which in most cases,like my school days,was/is a negative thing not a positive and just like I left that environment as soon as possible,the majority of those conscripts found military discipline a negative thing that they couldn’t get away from fast enough as soon as their de mob numbers came up.
Well a lot of people who have joined have felt the routine and comradeship and pride they get sets them on the straight and narrow, gives them some stability in their life. Particularly if they’ve had a less than best childhood.
bazza123:
Well a lot of people who have joined have felt the routine and comradeship and pride they get sets them on the straight and narrow, gives them some stability in their life. Particularly if they’ve had a less than best childhood.
There’s another side to that argument that says it won’t stop anyone who’s cut out to be a bank robber from robbing a bank.But it in most cases it will make sure that anyone who’s ever been called up won’t ever want to go back again,after they’ve been de mobbed.
Although if you’re right then that would surely justify the present status quo,of a forces based on choice for those who feel that they’d benefit from joining up,not a forces based on conscription.Except for circumstances of national emergency like WW2.
Although having said that it would take an extremely naive belief in the government line and forces recruitment propaganda for anyone to base a decision to join the forces on such reasoning as described.
People join up for all sorts of reasons. Some because they can’t think of anything better to do, some because of the apparent lifestyle, the qualifications that can be had, travel, some people have always wanted to do it. Some people do want to get stuck in to the likes of the Taliban etc. Maybe a slightly naive starting point, but there you are.
True some hate it from the off, and leave after a while. Some become disenfranchised, especially with morale as it now is.
Quite a lot do actually enjoy it and the responsibility that goes with it. A nineteen year old lad could be at the controls of a nuclear reactor or working on the bridge of an aircraft carrier, or if he’s a bit older in the cockpit of an apache or guiding bombs into enemy positions.
Obviously everyone is now a volunteer and has been for some time. No I don’t think mixing convicted crims with these people would be a good thing, but that’s not quite what I’m proposing
Carryfast, could you give a number to the" considerable portion" of soldiers that end up unemployed, on the streets & in jail, and where do you get the figures?
Slackbladder:
Carryfast, could you give a number to the" considerable portion" of soldiers that end up unemployed, on the streets & in jail, and where do you get the figures?
I think the conclusion that can be drawn from that is,as I’ve said,the issue of forces discipline,or in fact any type of enforced discipline regime,has no connection whatsoever in acting as a fix for offending rates.IE if someone has criminal intent before they join up they’ll still have that criminal intent when they leave the forces.
As for the excuses concerning ‘resettlement’ etc that’s obviously yet more bs.In that exactly the same situation applied in the case of those conscripted into the services during the large wars and the during national service years in which,just like in the case of today’s volunteer forces,military discipline was never intended as means of criminal rehabilitation,it was just there to make sure that everyone followed orders.While in the case of those with criminal intent it made no difference whatsoever.
Interesting report. I don’t think the armed forces themselves have ever said they could or should be used as a way of preventing criminal intent in someone. It seems to be accepted by the general public that that’s what would happen, as some sort of cure all for social problems. To me the Army was just like living in a small town anywhere in the uk, with all the similar types of people that live there, most good people, some bad, very few major criminals.
As for resettlement years ago it wasn’t seen as a big thing, for the army at least, don’t know about the other services, but in recent years it’s got a lot better. I got out in 1999, in my last year I was offered plenty help with work & housing. I attended many courses, all free, and got travel money, hire cars, hotels paid and all while being paid. I was given thorough medical & dental inspections prior to leaving and issued with information on how & where to claim when I started to fall to bits.
It’s a volunteer Army, that doesn’t mean it will suit all people. I always tell people asking about joining. If you can get on with it it’s the best job in the world, if you can’t it can be the worst.
Slackbladder:
Interesting report. I don’t think the armed forces themselves have ever said they could or should be used as a way of preventing criminal intent in someone. It seems to be accepted by the general public that that’s what would happen, as some sort of cure all for social problems. To me the Army was just like living in a small town anywhere in the uk, with all the similar types of people that live there, most good people, some bad, very few major criminals.
As for resettlement years ago it wasn’t seen as a big thing, for the army at least, don’t know about the other services, but in recent years it’s got a lot better. I got out in 1999, in my last year I was offered plenty help with work & housing. I attended many courses, all free, and got travel money, hire cars, hotels paid and all while being paid. I was given thorough medical & dental inspections prior to leaving and issued with information on how & where to claim when I started to fall to bits.
It’s a volunteer Army, that doesn’t mean it will suit all people. I always tell people asking about joining. If you can get on with it it’s the best job in the world, if you can’t it can be the worst.
There’s another controversial way of looking at it.In that firstly many of those who I knew who joined up ( mostly on financial grounds because there were few other job choices ) would have been the last people I’d ever want to put a gun in the hands of.
While others with more stable attitudes wouldn’t have ever joined up by choice.Myself being one.
IE in general the whole issue is a contradiction.In that ironically some of the best forces we’ve ever had were made up of the mostly conscript army of WW2.Being mostly people who didn’t really want to do what they had to do but they had to do it from putting on the uniform to having to possibly shoot someone.They also,in general,couldn’t wait for the day when they were de mobbed and sent back to their civvy lives.
Whereas there’s obviously a very different mindset to that in the case of those who choose to join up in a volunteer army and then find the regime something which they want to stay with and not get away from ASAP together with all the issues which that seems to result in when they have to be sent back to civvy life.
The idea of then adding National Service into that contradictory situation would probably make the forces totally unworkable.In that they either need to be all conscript forces or,as now,a volunteer force.As for the question of which would best the jury is still out although as I’ve said the former type could only be justified in times of real national emergency when the country is under threat.While ironically the latter can often result in the government taking a cavalier approach to foreign policy together with forces with a totally different attitude to military life to those who made up most of that conscript WW2 force for example.
How do you know they hated it and couldn’t wait to be de-mobbed? True they hated the war, but I’m not sure thy generally all hated the forces themselves. My grandad and my other grans partner were both called up; they didn’t both hate it, in fact they have some fond memories of certain times during the war. I’m proud of what they did, my grandad used to wear his medals with pride and tell stories of his time in. He considered going for his three stripes but in the end became a civilian once more. He didn’t hate it.
My nanna was a Land Army girl, hard work but she didn’t hate it either.
It wasn’t British political ideology or anything else, people soon saw what the fascists were like, and wanted to do their bit. I’m immensely proud of what my forefathers did, going right back to my great grandads etc. A lot of the service records from WW2 are still secret, I’d love to know when they are going to be released.
) institution, who AGAIN commit a crime, send them for a spell in a prison run by maybe the Redcaps or recently retired personnel. Not to teach them to kill etc, but to Instill some ■■■■ self respect and discipline. It wouldn’t necessarily be expensive to set up, a large tented camp will do (which are good enough for our own current forces in Afghan). Keep them busy, lots of inspections, drill, fitness etc.
Not stopping criminal intent in the form of drug dealers or armed robbers etc.
