Thought I would start a new thread after listening to the JV show today.Typicall of JV he does not get under the collars of people he is interviewing,perhaps a lack of knowledge/research?
He let the guy from the bus users consortium of the hook.
Yep they are limited to 62mph but as we all know that is a straight top speed.
Timetables are set with safety in mind he said and vosa etc would verify this.
OK , your boss says you leave London Victoria,make 5 stops en route,(including hopefully a driver change,probably Carlisle), and arrive in Aberdeen 12 hours later.
That’s about 580 miles,take off 1/4 hour per stop (oh yeah), that’s 10 1/4 hours driving. That is an average speed of 56.6 mph.
Would it be a fully refreshed driver taking over or one that has been sitting in the courier seat for 6 hours? This double manning should be stopped . (not saying it would happen in this case.
National Express does not have ebs on their coaches. As we all know this sorts out a lot of problems if you are cornering to fast.
All continental models have them , why not N E Could not be safety over cost could it?
We have all been passed by the Plymouth to London N E coaches years ago and that was when they were allowed to use the third lane.
Look at the schedules.
The dummy Dunwoody woman from the transport select commitee did not even know that seatbelt wearing was compulsory and she wiggled out of it.
As a last note of a grumpy old man posting what happened to the two coach drivers from Scotland a couple of years ago when they left Edinborough at 5 am and crashed in southern France in the afternoon with the schoolchildren on board on their way to Spain. Double manning pooh! Where was there overnight stop going to be ? (what overnight stop).
PS
Have N E have only taken there doubles off the road today to delay repercussions?
Hi,
I own and operate both articulated lorries and coaches, and think that your assumptions are well wide of the mark.
I have business associates in both sectors, including National Express, and can tell you that heir driver scheduling is one of the best around.
The fact that this particular vehicle was not operated by National Express anyway, fails to be mentioned. The actual operator of the vehicle is also one of the most highly respected coach operators as well, so please, no silly accusations about this.
There are plenty of road hauliers which are operating a lot worse than this particular coach operator, just look at the VOSA site at Holyhead on a regular basis to see that.
Two person operation is rife in both sectors, freight and passenger, and i think has nothing to do with this issue.
And to finish, as a professional driver, how many near incidents have you had where you thought, wow, that was close■■?
Regards,
Richard.
Re double manning, the firm I used to work for when I was bus driving also ran a National Express contract (560 service, amonst others) They used to send SOLO drivers from Barnsley to London including the return journey!
This continued until they were picked up by VOSA for continuous driver infringements regarding drivers hours. The services were almost always late (Barnsley to london in 4.5 hours including all stops, I doubt it?) On a regular basis the driver would be leaving London at least an hour late, and as mentioned by me in another post, National Express would be continously ringing the drivers asking where they were and why they were late.
After they were closed down for 2 weeks by the trafiic commisioner and forced to train all drivers on tacho laws and having to pay a rather large fine they now operate the same service double manned…its all down to cost with these firms, they just don’t wanna pay the drivers!
I’ve done Double manned to Germany and Woipey in NE France, 2 drivers 1 drop no problem at all from Newcastle upon Tyne. Its upto the 2nd man to ensure he takes the appropriate rest before doing his stint behind the wheel.
As for Time Tables, National Express allow quite a reasonable time for the journey so its not down to the company, The Driver involved in the accident was supposed to be professional, if he did’nt know the vehicles capability and common sense didn’t dictate that the bend was tight, how can you blame the company?
His so called knowledge should of warned him of the fact that the speed should of been reduced until he got onto the straight.
I dont blame National Express I blame the driver unless the vehicle is found to be defective, there are a number of factors to be taken into account, had he just started his shift at Victoria Stn ? Had he slept during his rest period or gone out sightseeing / shopping? was he on medication? there are a lot of unanswered questions at the moment.
V8superfan:
And to finish, as a professional driver, how many near incidents have you had where you thought, wow, that was close■■?Richard.
Big difference in value of cargo between 26 pallets of Tesco Own Brand Baked Beans and 69 human beings.
If it goes Pete Tong in the truck like it did in the coach accident, I may die but nobody else would.
Conor:
I may die but nobody else would.
not necessarily true though is it? although I get your point - that particular accident would probably have just been a 4 hour road closure and some cuts and bruises for the driver (and lots of dented beans cans!) had it been a HGV
disgo:
National Express does not have ebs on their coaches. As we all know this sorts out a lot of problems if you are cornering to fast.
All continental models have them , why not N E Could not be safety over cost could it?
I remember Neoplans in the 80s (family in the business) having ABS as standard - years before other marques. The vehicle would certainly have had ABS. What advantage EBS would give over ABS on this particuIar vehicle, I am not qualified to comment on.
What I do know is that Neoplan build the probably the best coaches in the world - and the price of them reflects this. The only other manufacturer you might consider in this leage woud be Setra (like Neoplan, they are German). To suggest that a newish one would not have extremely high levels of safety built in as standard is laughable.
V8superfan:
The fact that this particular vehicle was not operated by National Express anyway, fails to be mentioned. The actual operator of the vehicle is also one of the most highly respected coach operators as well, so please, no silly accusations about this.
Fully agree. Trathens have been around for a very long time.
Some interesting comments here, and valid points tooo.
I operated a fleet of seven Neoplans up until three years ago, and they were as safe as they could possibly be, .
Unfortunately humans like machines get it wrong sometimes, is hat not the meaning of the word accident… maybe a thought for the poor guy at the helm… as we all make our living from the transport sector.
Trathens is a subsidary of Parks of Hamilton, one of the largest coach operators in Scotland and one which carries a very respected name.
Also not quite so sure about the theory of the beans and the driver being the only one injured.
In this case it was solely the coach involved, but how many accidents tend to involve third parties as well , when HGVs are involved■■?
V8superfan:
.The fact that this particular vehicle was not operated by National Express anyway, fails to be mentioned. .
your’e right i didn’t know that.
i too was listening to the jeremy whine show. What a ■■■■ that man can be. the bloke in the interview mentioned tilt tests to 30 odd degrees. but i wouldn’t mind betting that they tilt them slowly which wouldn’t simulate a driver going round a bend a bit sharpish.
none of us are perfect and yes i have been caught out by an unfamiliar slip road and drifted over the white line. i dread to think what would of happened if a car had been alongside of me.
with the state of our motorways(tram lines and inappropriate white lines) accidents are surely to be expected to a certain extent.
Nobody on here has yet picked up the point that this bus had a rear steering axle. And when they go ,Boy,do they go!!! I drove a FIAT wagon & drag With rear steering on the truck & also on the trailer .I jack knifed on a wet downslope going towards the Blanc. V. Scary!! Got back to UK & jacked. It is the most unstable configuration.
Interesting comments regarding the steering rear axle.
All of my Neoplans had the steering tag axle, which sits on the rear of a 6 x 2 tag configuration.
Sadly, in reality, this would make little or no diffence to a vehicle above 20 mph, as it locks itself above that speed.
For obvious reasons it also locks stright when reversing as well.
Unless a catastrophic failure did occur, then i can see this being nothing to do with this incident.
Yes we did change a couple of rear steering rams, but their operation was not significant to the operation of the coach, other than to turn them in a very tight space, and of course the extended tyre wear with no scrub.
I have just seen some pictures of the vehicle, and it is late model Neoplan skyliner, so would of been fitted with all the electrical toys as one would expect.
These vehicles run 24 hours a day, and are maintained accordingly, as are many truck fleets, and i doubt very much that the vehicle was the actual cause,but all options must be kept open.
With regards to tilt testing, this is something i have been involved with in the past, and i can tell you that the actual test is done to strict guidelines and all weights are simulated etc.
The very interesting point to note hear is that the Uk is infact the only country that actually uses this system, as elsewhere it is not a requirement!!!.
Dont forget some of these double decker trailers are actually higher than the double decker coaches, and just look at the way SOME of them are driven■■?
Interesting stuff!!
as any body spared a thought for how the driver feels at this moment?,he MAY have been going a bit but you cant tell me he set out with the intention to crash is coach and kill and maim others,he probley will never drive a coach again or would want to for that matter.
what ever went wrong that night will haunt him for the rest of his days,but untill all the evidence is out in the open,best leave whos to blame till then?.
mark
p.s i have driven double deck buses,and know they are not great st speed or in wet/high winds,also them slips may need looking at after this incident.
why do people think that when double manning you have to drive the whole 4.5 hr before changing 
3 on 3 off at max makes life easier
driver to blame?,bus not up to the job,?,perhaps if the road had been better planned it would not have happened?..when are road planners going to get it right?..If the road has a national speed limit imposed on surely it should be safe to do that speed?..
Fair comment.
I’ve taken vehicles down that slip road many times, and the bend is a bit deceiving.
I find the curve quite consistent and then it gets much sharper very quickly.
On the other hand, the bend is well sign-posted, there is an advisory (reduced) maximum speed limit (IIRC), and you should be taking it steady on a slip road anyway.
But I think we’ve all had those moments when you think ‘Christ, that was close. A tad too hot round that one.’ I don’t care what anyone says - we’ve all been there.
An absolute tragedy whatever the cause.
Have mentioned the driver a couple of threads ago, but your comments regarding the road setup are very very valid.
There are plenty of bad setups around the country are there not■■?
As mentioned earlier, but by the grace of god go i…
For a long distance coach driver he certainly didn’t know that bend. You only have to do it once to realise how treacherous it is.It will be interesting to hear how long he had been doing that route. You don’t need the cross wind to lose the back end, just speed.
and you should be taking it steady on a slip road anyway.
but if the road or slip was designed better there would be no need for a reducement in the speed limit,as for taking it steady(not having a go at you fenman)i always thought a slip road was there so you could build up your speed to join the flow of traffic on the motorway?,
The road should not be " a bit deceiving."…
No it shouldn’t be deceiving - you’re dead right oddz.
You shouldn’t really need to be building up speed when leaving the M4 to get on the M25.
But I do see your point. The two roads run at almost 90 degrees to each other. To get a curve that can be run at 100 km/h safely in a Neoplan Skyliner would have to be really shallow, and therefore long.
Once you’ve negotiated the bend, there is enough slip road to build up speed before you merge with the M25.
I think overall, the design could be improved. Maybe it should be a shallower curve.
But, at the end of the day, that is how it is at the moment, and we should be driving according to to that. Not to how we feel it ‘should’ be.
Good point though. It isn’t just this slip that could be improved. I can think of several others.
Davey Driver:
His so called knowledge should of warned him of the fact that the speed should of been reduced until he got onto the straight.
I tend to agree; it’s why the job is deemed to be ‘professional’.
However . . . . . . .
Davey Driver:
I dont blame National Express
But the HSE might if that particular driver has not had familiarisation training for that particular type of vehicle, especially if he has not had fam trg for double deckers which most certainly have different characteristics to a single decker.
Just because the vehicle is Cat D and the driver holds a Cat D entitlement, it doen’t mean that he is correctly trained to drive that vehicle. Operators (of all descriptions/veh cats) need to realise their responsibilities with regard to their duty of care, and as such, continuation training beyond initial licence aquasition.
Davey Driver:
Had he slept during his rest period or gone out sightseeing / shopping? was he on medication?
Part of our ‘contract of employment’ states that you are responsible for starting your shift fully rested and capable of carrying out your duties/job description. It also states that should you feel unable to do so, you are responsible for informing a supervisor/management. Actually enforcing this is where it gets a bit ‘iffy’! 
Davey Driver:
there are a lot of unanswered questions at the moment.
. . . . . . and so the reason that what we have said here, is dependant on the actual facts (as and when [or if]) they emerge.
A question for Richard (V8); did/do your drivers ever recieve vehicle (or at least vehicle type) specific familiarisation training?