the slip from M62 to M6 south from liverpool is a good one were they got it right,but if you look at the slips on the M25 most are tight,(M11,M4,M3etc),is it due to lack of space or down to the old chesnut of COST?.
Don’t know the facts regarding this accident,but fully agree that we have all come close.
On Thursday I had to abandon the exit I wanted and ease back on the dual carriageway as it became immediately apparent there was not enough space to slow and get round the exit ramp safely. (day dreaming again 
).
Wasting time turning around is much better than rolling over.
I would also say that all of us have spent days driving around grinding our teeth because of outside influence (normally wife,dispatcher,tax man etc).On those days my driving suffers badly as it’s hard to think straight. Maybe this man was having one of those days.
harry:
For a long distance coach driver he certainly didn’t know that bend. You only have to do it once to realise how treacherous it is.It will be interesting to hear how long he had been doing that route. You don’t need the cross wind to lose the back end, just speed.
Just because the speed limiter is set to 62, it aint a target.
How many people have driven round it and nipped the arse cheeks a bit?
Wheel Nut:
How many people have driven round it and nipped the arse cheeks a bit?
I’ll ‘plead’ to that one. Not the same location but…M25 clockwise, at the A21 split. Started overtaking another artic and ‘lost’ it in the mirrors, so, kept going on the left-hand bend. When I next saw the vehicle it was about 400 yards behind, so the driver had obviously backed off.
My particular ‘hates’ are, M18 North to A1(M) North. M6 North to M62 East. M42 North to M6 South, and M40 South onto the M25 Anti, where you change lanes left immediately prior to a right-hand bend. There is scope (and room) to re-design that junction.
Best wishes to the people who suffered injuries in this horrific accident.
trathens havent always had such a good reputation
http://trucknetuk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17731
and there have been faults with the neoplans with the rear steer not locking
Which section did the crash occur?
Also, it seems all the slips on this intersection have some kind of kink along its path.
V8, do you know if double deck trailers have to go through a tilt test under different load scenarios?
Do they have ballast on the chassis?
Are drivers given special training?
I’ve spoken to drivers who have pulled the DD trailers with the ‘car like’ wheels and reported they are more unstable than with conventional wheels.
My feeling on these trailers is that it’s pushing the boundaries between safety and cost.
I’ve also seen them being pulled by tiny DAF CF units with a wholly inadequate spoiler.
You wouldn’t catch me going over Shap with one!
pedroski:
V8, do you know if double deck trailers have to go through a tilt test under different load scenarios?
Do they have ballast on the chassis?
Are drivers given special training?
According to Fowler Welch Coolchain Trainer, (I had to ask an office bod to find out) their Double Deck Trailers are fitted with a Gyroscope device which kicks in the brakes if it starts to lean going round a bend such as coming off a roundabout etc, I’ve experienced the same effect with a Double Deck trailer belonging to Tesco’s, for all your only doing about 10mph coming off the Roundabout the Freezers were top heavy and you could feel the brakes kick in.
I should imagine for safety reasons they do go under Tilt trials when applying for specification,
As for Ballast. I cant really see how they could use ballast on the Tesco Trailers (Plain White mostly pulled by C&D Transport) as they are litterally only 6 or 7 inches off the ground inside.
And as for Training ■■?
If that involves the Office Body telling you which unit to use to take the Double Decker to Edinburgh then yes training was given at FWC, if however you mean do they sit you down and give you instructions etc of what to do in an Emergency then the answers NO your a Professional as far as they are concerned, you have the licence and should know the ins and outs despite the fact they have a full time training guy in Spalding who I never saw once in the 16 months I worked for them.
He could have had a front blowout ,wait for the facts
Dafman:
He could have had a front blowout ,wait for the facts
Quite.
That said the driver may have made a mistake - stand up all those that can honestly say they have never made a mistake (however small). The perfect driver has not yet been born but as professional drivers it is our job to make as few as possible. I agree that the driver did not intend to have the accident but unfortunately, for whatever reason, he did. If he did misjudge the bend it was a mistake - there is no point blaming the road layout - as a driver it is your job to anticipate such hazards. My sympathies to all involved including the driver - whatever the outcome he will have to live with it for the rest of his life.
gardun:
That said the driver may have made a mistake - stand up all those that can honestly say they have never made a mistake (however small). The perfect driver has not yet been born but as professional drivers it is our job to make as few as possible. I agree that the driver did not intend to have the accident but unfortunately, for whatever reason, he did. If he did misjudge the bend it was a mistake - there is no point blaming the road layout - as a driver it is your job to anticipate such hazards. My sympathies to all involved including the driver - whatever the outcome he will have to live with it for the rest of his life.
Been reading this site for a few weeks now, this is my first post - guess i’m gonna get off on the wrong foot.
MISTAKE!!! Are you real? Oh well, the driver may have made a mistake, never mind lets send him on a foreign holiday to make up for how he must be feeling eh?
i’m not pre-judging the outcome of what will be a very thorough investigation i’m sure, but if the driver is found to be at fault for trying to take the corner too fast then i’ll have no sympathy for him - in fact i hope he will go to jail for it for a very long time. Yes we all make mistakes, but in 20 years as a profesional driver none of my mistakes has led to an accident, let alone killing someone.
I have no time for the wet liberals that seem to live in an ideal world when we can all group hug to make the nasty things go away.
coach drivers have the most valuable cargo off all, and they should show the highest standards of driving, no excuses if they fall short. Perhaps we should give out leaflets to every passanger as they board their ride warning that the driver is only human, may make a mistake and that they may loose their life?
As for blaming the road - get real! the one bit of garduns reply I do aggree with - in an ideal world we would have dead straight roads with no bends - but it is up to the driver to drive in a manner suitable for the conditions.
People have to be held to account for their actions - and heavily penalised to act as a deterrent for others. Like i said, in this case the driver has yet to be found at fault, and if the fault lies with a mechanical fault then I would expect the operator to be prosecuted. Lts not forget that many families lifes have been turned upside down by this crash (i refuse to use the word accident) my sympathy is with them.
@ ski i will post just this , you are normaly presumed INNOCENT
until the courts find you GUILTY;
and my next point here is yes we are responsible for our actions
but not every crash --accident–incident–mishap etc etc is avoidable,
IF the driver is found to be guilty,then yes you can rave and shout
but until this has happened, give him the benifit of doubt,
and last WEITHER GUILTY OR INN OCENT he will never forget what
happened. and is suffering as well,IT can happen to us all as we are not
perfect,remember that !!!
Drivers can’t help discussing the hypothetical technical reasons for an accident ,based on their own experiences. The problem is it ends up as a Kangaroo Court…& the driver in question is seldom exonerated.
A wet liberal - ME 
The point I was trying to make is that rather than blame the road let’s admit that there was most likely (more than 95%) driver error. There is no such thing as a dangerous road although some do contain more than their fair share of hazards.
I don’t imagine that the driver set out intending to crash the bus therefore it was a mistake. A very serious one for which he should be punished if he is proved to have been at fault.
My other point was that, knowing the way some on here react, who can claim never to have made a mistake. Yes this was a very serious one which should never have happened, but it did, and I am sure that it was not intentional. I do feel sorry for the driver whether or not he was at fault - it is one hell of a thing to have on your concience.
I’m not defending the driver simply trying to preempt some of the holier than thou comments that I half expected.
Well I am sure that the investigating authorities can breath a sigh of relief that all the questions have been answered by the Trucknet EXPERTS
Case closed
brit pete:
@ ski i will post just this , you are normaly presumed INNOCENTuntil the courts find you GUILTY;
and my next point here is yes we are responsible for our actions
but not every crash --accident–incident–mishap etc etc is avoidable,
IF the driver is found to be guilty,then yes you can rave and shout
but until this has happened, give him the benifit of doubt,
and last WEITHER GUILTY OR INN OCENT he will never forget what
happened. and is suffering as well,IT can happen to us all as we are not
perfect,remember that !!![/quote
I agree, he has not been found guilty yet and i made sure that i mentioned that in my 1st post. what really upsets me though is those that look for excuses to explain an errants drivers actions. well, he had a bad childhood - was going through a messy divorce - his football team lost last night. My point is we are all responsible for our actions and the consequences that reult.
i dont agree it can happen to us all, we are masters of our own destiny. society today is such a mess because bleeding heart liberals want to excuse every wrong-doer for their actions, and find something/one else to blame. its about time we all realised that we, and we alone are responsible for our actions and must suffer the consequences that result- not a very pc view i know, but its me
i pray to god that the driver of this coach is found to be blameless, but if not, and he is found guilty in a court of law then i for one hopes he does suffer and never forgets how is actions have ruined so many peoples lives.
Ski:
Yes we all make mistakes, but in 20 years as a profesional driver none of my mistakes has led to an accident, let alone killing someone.
But how many of those mistakes you’ve made have not had tragic results due to good fortune? The differance between getting away with and going “phew that was close” and being in a major incident is sometimes very small.
How difficult is it to understand?
Define mistake - is it driving too fast for the conditions? NOT IN MY BOOK, thats just plain crazy, wrong and not what anyone expects from any driver, let alone a professional one carrying a cargo of some 70 souls.
Yes I’ve made mistakes, but I’ve never ever driven too fast for the conditions, hence I haven’t had a crash- because i drive professionally, within the speed limits and within the speed sensible for the conditions.
It appears or has been suggested, although I’m not prejudging this particular case myself, that the driver of this coach MAY have been going to fast for that particular road - IF SO AND IS PROVEN THEN THAT IS INEXCUSABLE.
Ski:
Yes I’ve made mistakes, but I’ve never ever driven too fast for the conditions, hence I haven’t had a crash- because i drive professionally, within the speed limits and within the speed sensible for the conditions. .
Oh O.K. then… Anybody got Swanseas address so the less than perfect amongst us can send our licences back…
V8 superfan and other coach sympathisers my questions were still not answered.
Do you really think that is a realistic timetable?
Did yours, Strathens or NE have the cost extra ebs/ebd (whatever each manufacturer names it ) that the continentals pay for.
Do you really think that double manning is safe? Hand on heart.
However you brak up the duty times between the drivers. Slightly different for truck drivers (but still not good I think ) as all the spare one does is lay on the bunk. In a coach generally he/she is sitting in the courier seat or serving coffee.At the end of the shift you still have two knackered drivers. (Or before the end).
Ski, I was going to say get your head down quick when I read your post but a) I think I’m to late and b) I am in a certain amount of agreement with you. The post sort of got hi - jacked onto slip road tightness and road lay outs.
I would say that if everyone fell over on every slip road the first time they went round it there was a problem with the road. But we don’t. Mind you some morons seem to manage it daily 0n the M25/M11 northbound slip road ,despite the obvious bends and speed signs and lorry falling over signs.
Blimey if you want some tight slip roads go to France according to several drivers on here they would never make the first one.
On the subject of slip roads :
I drove across the states a few times, in a car not a wagon, and believe me, when the sign on the off ramp says 20mph it bloody well means it ! I didn’t take the sign seriously the first time - whoa neddy ! Those yank cars don’t handle at the best of times but going from 60 into a real 20mph bend makes it pucker.
Maybe the “advisory” signs over here ought to be replaced with realistic hard limit signs. It’s all very well saying only go as fast as the conditions allow, but for various reasons you aren’t always aware of what the conditions are gonna be just around the bend. If you are joining a motorway, it’s reasonable to expect the bend to flatten out, not tighten drastically. In the daylight, you can see the curve, but at night they tend to creep up on you.
None of that is relevant to this accident though, as far as I can tell.