this is a puzzling question.
So I am asking if your on POA and the truck is not moving and its double manned would the first 45 minutes count as break
lets say you did not put it on break or couldn’t for this.
delboytwo:
this is a puzzling question.So I am asking if your on POA and the truck is not moving and its double manned would the first 45 minutes count as break
lets say you did not put it on break or couldn’t for this.
The first 45 would be counted as break IN POSITION 2 if under MM rules - it is not dependant on whether the vehicle is moving or not
ROG:
delboytwo:
this is a puzzling question.So I am asking if your on POA and the truck is not moving and its double manned would the first 45 minutes count as break
lets say you did not put it on break or couldn’t for this.
The first 45 would be counted as break IN POSITION 2 if under MM rules - it is not dependant on whether the vehicle is moving or not
So if that the case then is this EU wide or just UK because there is no mention of it in the EU regulations, Directive 2002/15/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council
delboytwo:
ROG:
delboytwo:
this is a puzzling question.So I am asking if your on POA and the truck is not moving and its double manned would the first 45 minutes count as break
lets say you did not put it on break or couldn’t for this.
The first 45 would be counted as break IN POSITION 2 if under MM rules - it is not dependant on whether the vehicle is moving or not
So if that the case then is this EU wide or just UK because there is no mention of it in the EU regulations, Directive 2002/15/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council
VOSA will view it as I stated but who knows about other EU enforcers
delboytwo:
this is a puzzling question.So I am asking if your on POA and the truck is not moving and its double manned would the first 45 minutes count as break
lets say you did not put it on break or couldn’t for this.
If the second driver is sat in the passenger seat next to the driver and not working, the first 45 minutes of POA will count as break, and I would say that is regardless of whether or not the vehicle is moving.
Though to be honest if you was going to be stationary for 45 minutes or more I don’t see why you wouldn’t want to put the tachograph on break.
This is not a VOSA decision and you won’t find it in (EC) 561/2006, but you will find it in Guidance Note 2.
tachograph:
This is not a VOSA decision and you won’t find it in (EC) 561/2006, but you will find it in Guidance Note 2.
The third is where a vehicle is manned by more than one driver. When a second crew member
is available for driving when necessary, is sitting next to the driver of the vehicle and is not
actively involved in assisting the driver driving the vehicle, a period of 45 minutes of that
crew member’s ‘period of availability’ can be regarded as ‘break’.
What does it mean by CAN BE ?
Can be regarded by who ? … driver … authorities
If authorities then does that mean they have the option to not regard it as CANNOT BE as well as CAN BE ?
ROG:
The third is where a vehicle is manned by more than one driver. When a second crew member
is available for driving when necessary, is sitting next to the driver of the vehicle and is not
actively involved in assisting the driver driving the vehicle, a period of 45 minutes of that
crew member’s ‘period of availability’ can be regarded as ‘break’.What does it mean by CAN BE ?
Can be regarded by who ? … driver … authorities
If authorities then does that mean they have the option to not regard it as CANNOT BE as well as CAN BE ?
Go and have a lie down before your head implodes.
tachograph:
delboytwo:
this is a puzzling question.So I am asking if your on POA and the truck is not moving and its double manned would the first 45 minutes count as break
lets say you did not put it on break or couldn’t for this.
If the second driver is sat in the passenger seat next to the driver and not working, the first 45 minutes of POA will count as break, and I would say that is regardless of whether or not the vehicle is moving.
When a second crew member
is available for driving when necessary, is sitting next to the driver of the vehicle and is not
actively involved in assisting the driver driving the vehicle, a period of 45 minutes of that
crew member’s ‘period of availability’ can be regarded as ‘break’.
That would suggest the vehicle is moving in those circumstances, it’s all a bit vague but I agree there would be no reason not to put it on break while stationary and if you forgot you could always do a print out and explain.
The third is where a vehicle is manned by more than one driver. When a second crew member
is available for driving when necessary, is sitting next to the driver of the vehicle and is not
actively involved in assisting the driver driving the vehicle, a period of 45 minutes of that
crew member’s ‘period of availability’ can be regarded as ‘break’.
this why i think you can’t take a POA in a non moving vehicle if the for the purpose of break
i know what your saying, why not put it on break but what if the two drivers but it on POA for and hour and there not driving there waiting in a canteen as there new of the delay in advanced and was told to use POA
delboytwo:
The third is where a vehicle is manned by more than one driver. When a second crew member
is available for driving when necessary, is sitting next to the driver of the vehicle and is not
actively involved in assisting the driver driving the vehicle, a period of 45 minutes of that
crew member’s ‘period of availability’ can be regarded as ‘break’.this why i think you can’t take a POA in a non moving vehicle if the for the purpose of break
i know what your saying, why not put it on break but what if the two drivers but it on POA for and hour and there not driving there waiting in a canteen as there new of the delay in advanced and was told to use POA
It won’t really be an issue because when they do start driving the second driver will get his break then and driver 1 should have plenty of driving time for that otherwise he would surely have used break instead of POA.
For what it’s worth when we get our analysis reports back it says for whichever of us drove first that the first 45 minutes of POA is assumed to be break while they are in the passenger seat and the other one of us is bringing the vehicle back in the second part of the shift. It doesn’t say that for the POA recorded for which one of us sits in the passenger seat for the outbound journey and hasn’t done any driving yet so doesn’t need a break for the tacho rules.
Coffeeholic:
delboytwo:
The third is where a vehicle is manned by more than one driver. When a second crew member
is available for driving when necessary, is sitting next to the driver of the vehicle and is not
actively involved in assisting the driver driving the vehicle, a period of 45 minutes of that
crew member’s ‘period of availability’ can be regarded as ‘break’.this why i think you can’t take a POA in a non moving vehicle if the for the purpose of break
i know what your saying, why not put it on break but what if the two drivers but it on POA for and hour and there not driving there waiting in a canteen as there new of the delay in advanced and was told to use POA
It won’t really be an issue because when they do start driving the second driver will get his break then and driver 1 should have plenty of driving time for that otherwise he would surely have used break instead of POA.
so would you say that to have the 45 counted as break it would be in a moving vehicle 
delboytwo:
Coffeeholic:
delboytwo:
The third is where a vehicle is manned by more than one driver. When a second crew member
is available for driving when necessary, is sitting next to the driver of the vehicle and is not
actively involved in assisting the driver driving the vehicle, a period of 45 minutes of that
crew member’s ‘period of availability’ can be regarded as ‘break’.this why i think you can’t take a POA in a non moving vehicle if the for the purpose of break
i know what your saying, why not put it on break but what if the two drivers but it on POA for and hour and there not driving there waiting in a canteen as there new of the delay in advanced and was told to use POA
It won’t really be an issue because when they do start driving the second driver will get his break then and driver 1 should have plenty of driving time for that otherwise he would surely have used break instead of POA.
so would you say that to have the 45 counted as break it would be in a moving vehicle
No because I’ve no idea for sure so won’t guess, but see above for what our analysis reports say, I drive multi manned for most shifts and we alternate week about which of us drives first so every second week I have reports which say ‘assumed break’ and the other weeks I don’t.
i don’t know if your posting so i post this now
does it not have to be the first part of a POA that would have to be counted
your both on POA 1 hour in canteen you go back to truck driver 2 is still on POA when truck moves and the POA would now move into the next hour
hope understand 
delboytwo:
i don’t know if your posting so i post this nowdoes it not have to be the first part of a POA that would have to be counted
your both on POA 1 hour in canteen you go back to truck driver 2 is still on POA when truck moves and the POA would now move into the next hour
hope understand
We start at 19:15, collect keys, get unit, drive from car park to yard, hook trailer, do checks and then we sit there until around 20:30 so we stick it on POA, which will be longer than 45 minutes, no point using break as we never need a WTD break because neither of us clocks 6 hours work in the shift and one of us has only done a couple of minutes driving and there is no benefit to resetting the driving clock, we never get to 4.5 hours driving in the shift so really we don’t need any breaks recorded, one of us generally does around 3:35 - 3:40 and the other 3:45 - 3:50. We never get that bit of POA flagged as assumed break, even though a little driving has been done.
Coffeeholic:
delboytwo:
i don’t know if your posting so i post this nowdoes it not have to be the first part of a POA that would have to be counted
your both on POA 1 hour in canteen you go back to truck driver 2 is still on POA when truck moves and the POA would now move into the next hour
hope understand
We start at 19:15, collect keys, get unit, drive from car park to yard, hook trailer, do checks and then we sit there until around 20:30 so we stick it on POA, which will be longer than 45 minutes, no point using break as we never need a WTD break because neither of us clocks 6 hours work in the shift and one of us has only done a couple of minutes driving and there is no benefit to resetting the driving clock, we never get to 4.5 hours driving in the shift so really we don’t need any breaks recorded, one of us generally does around 3:35 - 3:40 and the other 3:45 - 3:50. We never get that bit of POA flagged as assumed break, even though a little driving has been done.
ok thanks, Neil have a good night
Coffeeholic:
We start at 19:15, collect keys, get unit, drive from car park to yard, hook trailer, do checks and then we sit there until around 20:30 so we stick it on POA, which will be longer than 45 minutes, no point using break as we never need a WTD break because neither of us clocks 6 hours work in the shift and one of us has only done a couple of minutes driving and there is no benefit to resetting the driving clock, we never get to 4.5 hours driving in the shift so really we don’t need any breaks recorded, one of us generally does around 3:35 - 3:40 and the other 3:45 - 3:50. We never get that bit of POA flagged as assumed break, even though a little driving has been done.
I was just typing with some points but I think you’ve just answered the question.
If I’ve understood you post correctly you’re saying that the first POA you do when you’re both sat waiting is not flagged as assumed break ?
tachograph:
Coffeeholic:
We start at 19:15, collect keys, get unit, drive from car park to yard, hook trailer, do checks and then we sit there until around 20:30 so we stick it on POA, which will be longer than 45 minutes, no point using break as we never need a WTD break because neither of us clocks 6 hours work in the shift and one of us has only done a couple of minutes driving and there is no benefit to resetting the driving clock, we never get to 4.5 hours driving in the shift so really we don’t need any breaks recorded, one of us generally does around 3:35 - 3:40 and the other 3:45 - 3:50. We never get that bit of POA flagged as assumed break, even though a little driving has been done.I was just typing with some points but I think you’ve just answered the question.
If I’ve understood you post correctly you’re saying that the first POA you do when you’re both sat waiting is not flagged as assumed break ?
Indeed. The only one that gets flagged as 45 minutes assumed break is the one for the person who drives first and spends the later part of the shift in the passenger seat while the other drives. That’s just the way the people who do our analysis deal with it, others may do it differently.
Coffeeholic:
tachograph:
Coffeeholic:
We start at 19:15, collect keys, get unit, drive from car park to yard, hook trailer, do checks and then we sit there until around 20:30 so we stick it on POA, which will be longer than 45 minutes, no point using break as we never need a WTD break because neither of us clocks 6 hours work in the shift and one of us has only done a couple of minutes driving and there is no benefit to resetting the driving clock, we never get to 4.5 hours driving in the shift so really we don’t need any breaks recorded, one of us generally does around 3:35 - 3:40 and the other 3:45 - 3:50. We never get that bit of POA flagged as assumed break, even though a little driving has been done.I was just typing with some points but I think you’ve just answered the question.
If I’ve understood you post correctly you’re saying that the first POA you do when you’re both sat waiting is not flagged as assumed break ?
Indeed. The only one that gets flagged as 45 minutes assumed break is the one for the person who drives first and spends the later part of the shift in the passenger seat while the other drives. That’s just the way the people who do our analysis deal with it, others may do it differently.
OK thanks, going by that it sounds as if the assumed break only applies to driving breaks, at your company anyway.
As I understand this, it only applies to the second or other man,in fact that may well be the first driver, but the general reason that people use POA instead of break is because of the way they are paid.
In effect you are saying that the other man who is on POA cannot be on a break. (We know they are virtually the same)
If I am multi manning it makes no difference whether I am sat on the left or the right. I still want paying from start to finish except for my 45 minute compulsory breaks.
There isn’t any real need to use POA when multi manning in my opinion, it is just that the tacho manufacturers forgot to cater for this eventuality.
There isn’t any real need to use POA when multi manning in my opinion, it is just that the tacho manufacturers forgot to cater for this eventuality.
There would be other wise youe duty time of 21 hours max doubled manned work not be possible without using POA unless you did less driving