Rjan:
also worth remembering that it’s happening on the other side too in other countries, as a result of wars waged by us, by France, by others. Children are being shot, blown to bits, bombed in their sleep, and British politicians still dare to say it’s all justified because Saddam killed some people himself (or Gadaffi, etc.).
We’ve heard just recently about how teenagers were forced into, or thrown into, rivers in Iraq by soldiers, and so killed because they couldn’t swim. There are said to have been dozens of cases of such deaths.
So an eye for an eye is ok then? Is that what you’re saying?
No, there are times to turn the other cheek, but if someone is plucking your eyes out, sometimes the only way to make them stop is for them to realise that they, too, will have their eyes plucked out if they carry on.
So thats a yes then? Or are you saying THEY are justified to kill hundreds of people but we should turn the other cheek? Because now it is THEM plucking OUR eyes out. Or are you saying we should turn the other cheek? You arn’t making a lot of sense and are contradicting yourself with the use of violence. Its not ok for us but its ok for them because they are retaliating?
They are now killing innocent people so by your logic, we can now do the same.
I might be picking you up wrong but you seem like one of those apologist sympathysers who makes excuses for terrorism by blaming us for it.
Incidently, when youre passing the blame back to the west, how do you explain their actions with things like the Tunisia beach attacks, or the Nigerian (I think) hotel seige? Neither of these two countries are “plucking their eyes out” yet got targetted.
Charlie hebdo attacks. Reason given? They offended the prophet mohammad.
On smaller scales, there was a muslim shopkeeper in Glasgow who posted a happy easter message on his facebook page. Another muslim from Bradford drove THREE HUNDRED MILES to kill him for it. the reason gived? He was a betrayer to his religion. Doesnt sound like retaliation for bombing to me. Sounds like its more a case of “its our religion or you all die” and they are using ours bombing as a convenient excuse
You’re trying to make excuses and its flawed.
Rjan:
The_Snowman:
This guy has killed almost 100 innocent people so if a vigilante group decides to storm a mosque and start killing, will you justify their actions? Its the same principal.
I might categorise this as an example of the initial aggressor claiming to be responding, instead of turning the other cheek as an act of contrition for their own original wrongs. Indeed, our military is doing precisely the equivalent to the vigilante group in your question - except on an unprovoked basis, not as a retaliation.
Subject changing. You’re very much like carryfast. He too tries to hide his flawed logic, contradictions and question avoidance in a bombardment of words.
I asked if you felt it ok to kill a whole load of innocent muslims in the name of “well they are doing it to us”. You seem to think it is justified for them to do it to us because “we started it”. So now they are killing hundreds and thousands of innocent western people. They dont care if they are guilty of bombing or chucking kids in rivers. They TARGET innocent people specifically. They arnt even TRYING to target the guilty ones (if any of these atrocities you mention even happened) By that logic, targetting innocent Muslims by vigilante groups is ok. And you are now saying it is ok for us to go into countries like Syria and specifically target innocent people there. No checking out targets, gathering intel, making sure the guilty are there. Just bomb the whole place and not even bother if any of them are innocent? After all, according to you its ok because they are doing it to us.
You cant have it both ways Rjan. you cant decide they are justified to kill innocent people as revenge but we cant do the same. Incidently, im not saying an eye for an eye is a workable logic either. It becomes ■■■ for tat and never ends. Which is the spiral we are in now
Freight Dog:
A load of apologist twaddle. The middle east has had thousands of years of blood shed.
So has Europe.
Isis aren’t on a rampage to prove a point regarding military action. They just are yet another group filling vacant air space within the constantly changing vacuum of a fire and brimstone Islamic world. The same as Boko Haram. It’s excuses, excuses, excuses, whatever whining, winge winge winge excuse going to justify the spread of power, violence and control.
Well, whatever, but it doesn’t lead us to much of a solution does it? Are you going to mobilise and engage us in total war to clear the Middle East of people, wipeout on a bigger scale even than the Nazis attempted?
It hardly needs to be said your vacuous analysis and jingoistic solutions could lead us to make more of the same mistakes that inflamed this problem in the first place.
Despite your thousand years of Islamic history, I can’t identify any terrorist attack that wasn’t immediately preceded by a disastrous Western campaign. France has had all these lately since it meddled in Libya and Syria. Britain, since Iraq and Afghanistan. America, after it funded Bin Laden himself in the 80s, and trained him to fight the Soviets (which led to the Taliban gaining power). Few or no terrorist attacks in countries that have taken less prominent roles.
i love how the usuals are coming out with the we are bombing and killing them over there and we have brought it on ourselves
isis or whatever they are calling themselves donot need a reason to attack us we are their reason for existing they abhor our lifestyle our freedoms our morality and its their avoud mission to convert us and the rest of the world to thier twisted backward medievel interpretation of the quoran by force if nescasery .our atacks opon them are an excuse not a reason look at the bombings of sheeah mosques during the holly month of Ramadan that clearly goes against the teachings of the quoran
this lot are nothing to do with islam and everything to do with power
The-Snowman:
So thats a yes then? Or are you saying THEY are justified to kill hundreds of people but we should turn the other cheek?
No, I’m saying we’ve already killed vastly more Middle Easterns and North Africans in our military campaigns, than they have in return.
We have also caused vastly more disruption to the function of their economies and the security and regularity of their daily lives.
Because now it is THEM plucking OUR eyes out. Or are you saying we should turn the other cheek? You arn’t making a lot of sense and are contradicting yourself with the use of violence. Its not ok for us but its ok for them because they are retaliating?
I think that’s a pretty coherent position. If you spill a pint in the pub because of your blundering carelessness, and you get some beer thrown back at you, you make your apologies and leave it at that.
There’s always room for differences of opinion on the exact limit of reasonable and proportionate retaliation, or even which wrongs you should turn the other cheek to, but today’s terrorists are certainly not responding out of proportion or on a hair trigger.
They are now killing innocent people so by your logic, we can now do the same.
We already are, and have been for 15 years!
In the end I’m against killing altogether, but I can’t disintegrate the link between the people being killed here in Europe and those whom we have killed abroad.
Freight Dog:
A load of apologist twaddle. The middle east has had thousands of years of blood shed.
So has Europe.
.
Mm the difference is we grew out of society level chopping of hands and feet off, burning of witches, stoning raped women to death in Europe, a long long time ago.
We grew up. Time moved on. The middle east is stuck 600 years ago due to a policital and society control system that passes under the banner of a religion.
Freight Dog:
A load of apologist twaddle. The middle east has had thousands of years of blood shed.
So has Europe.
.
Mm the difference is we grew out of society level chopping of hands and feet off, burning of witches, stoning raped women to death in Europe, a long long time ago.
We grew up. Time moved on. The middle east is stuck 600 years ago due to a policital and society control system that passes under the banner of a religion.
No, women could wear mini-skirts in Kabul in the 1970s, until the Americans funded Bin Laden and the Mujahideen to fight the pro-Soviet government there, and those fundamentalists whom the Americans had bankrolled later took power (the Taliban) and clamped down.
The West keeps bombing the Middle East backwards, every time there’s a government or a dictator they happen not to like (even like Saddam who the Americans also helped into power).
These are the historical facts that most people seem to be blissfully unaware of.
The-Snowman:
So thats a yes then? Or are you saying THEY are justified to kill hundreds of people but we should turn the other cheek?
No, I’m saying we’ve already killed vastly more Middle Easterns and North Africans in our military campaigns, than they have in return.
We have also caused vastly more disruption to the function of their economies and the security and regularity of their daily lives.
Because now it is THEM plucking OUR eyes out. Or are you saying we should turn the other cheek? You arn’t making a lot of sense and are contradicting yourself with the use of violence. Its not ok for us but its ok for them because they are retaliating?
I think that’s a pretty coherent position. If you spill a pint in the pub because of your blundering carelessness, and you get some beer thrown back at you, you make your apologies and leave it at that.
There’s always room for differences of opinion on the exact limit of reasonable and proportionate retaliation, or even which wrongs you should turn the other cheek to, but today’s terrorists are certainly not responding out of proportion or on a hair trigger.
They are now killing innocent people so by your logic, we can now do the same.
We already are, and have been for 15 years!
In the end I’m against killing altogether, but I can’t disintegrate the link between the people being killed here in Europe and those whom we have killed abroad.
Im not even going to bother to repeat all the other examples of excuses terrorists give. You’ll keep on making excuses for it. Much like the foreign workers thread, its pointless trying to point stuff out to you. You see what you want to see and ignore the rest. Im not going round in circles trying to make you see the flaws in your logic
Rjan:
Despite your thousand years of Islamic history, I can’t identify any terrorist attack that wasn’t immediately preceded by a disastrous Western campaign.
Interesting you cite terrorism like its the only threat of the region. What about internal middle eastern cultural treatment of people due laws based on a belief system?
Was any western military action responsible for the still on going practice of stoning women? Are we responsible for the practice of a woman who reports a ■■■■ only to be executed for extra marital affairs? Are our military actions complicit with a society who’s “police” barred the escape of a group of teenage girls from a burning building causing their burning to death all because their modesty wasn’t sufficiently covered enough to be allowed onto the street?
Can you answer this without dragging up European historical cases from years ago that we as a society have used to educate ourselves and strive to move away from?
I agree with you Rjan, we should step out of it and let them get back to different factions killing each other, just like the Shia & Sunni’s.
That way when all the innocents caught up in that are suffering and dying, we at least can have a clear conscience and no blood on our hands!
Ramon123:
The Muslim community will never come out en mass and condemn these sort of terrorist attacks,because they are scared of comebacks from the terrorist supporters amongst them.A couple of muslim lads told me this a long time ago and nothing’s changed.
That may well be true!
And yes it will get worse, worse on both sides, along with a rise in racial tension for all of us living in Europe, etc…
At some point though the Muslim community may have to pick a side, as things can’t go on as they are. While I’ve no crystal ball, I guess that if the Muslim communities across Europe don’t come out and clearly ostracise themselves from ISIS, we at some point will have no choice but ostracise them! I believe a choice has to be made at some point, so the sooner the better for me!
I was listening to a radio discussion last year on this following an attack. Actually some prominent UK Muslim leaders did acknowledge that Islam as a UK community has remained tight lipped and they added they should be more vocal in distancing themselves from the actions of others.
BUT! You know the reasons they gave for this on the radio?
They said remaining silent was harming perception of the religion. That’s it. Their motivation? Horror at murder? No, self interest as a group.
It takes being concerned about public image to motivate saying something it seems. And even then, the only action is to vocalise that you wish to “distance” or “condemn” these attacks just because there buggering up your image? Nice. Thanks chaps. Feel free to stop short of helping us do something any time you know
raymundo:
All very well saying there is 20 miles of water separating them from us, but there wasn’t any water at all that stopped the London attacks apart from the Thames, and maybe or more than likely already here and waiting …
I said slow them down, not stop. They may well be here. I think we are more at risk from the “homegrown” threat.
Just out of interest does anyone know what passport checks there are if you left mainland Europe to the republic of Ireland? I know there is nothing between the Republic and the North. Is there there anything between Northern Ireland and the mainland UK?
It would be the long way round but probably a better option than Dover or the tunnel?
The ROI do passport checks even on Eu citizens but these are random and as for between the north of Ireland and the mainland there are no checks whatsoever. If anyone from the republic comes north to catch the boat to Liverpool Cairnryan etc there are no passport checks at all. I travel frequently on the cairnryan boat and see all sorts with Irish reg cars and they are not all Irish easy way for people to get to the mainland through Ireland. There are no checks made at all from the north. The cars are searched that’s all and just by stena employees not the police
ive never used my real name,or any name I always make up twice running n on any cross channel ferry…your ticket never gets looked at if you get stopped by plod coming over as your already off the boat.but unless they strike oil in Donegal,then theres nothing of any interest in ireland that anyone could want,and if they blew the place up it wouldn’t make big news as its already been blown to bits for the last 100 years…france is getting it bigtime as theres more muslims in france than frenchie,similar to the way its going now in Britain…best look out your granddads tin hat and whistle… …oh,and…deport the lot…new sign at heathrow and dover…don’t bother to unpack,your going back.!!!..if only
bazza123:
You know Volvo that his will now turn into an 8 page diatribe from Carryfast don’t you??
RIP, what I don’t understand is why they are attacking France. Don’t get me wrong, I’m thankful it’s not here, just unsure why France keeps getting hit.
I think that France gets targeted for a few reasons;
They have one of if not the highest number of Muslims in Europe. Makes it easy for the bad guys to hide.
France is quite segregated in that a lot of the Muslim’s live in “slums” out of Paris rather than in town so they say they are being picked on.
France recently passed a law banning the burka in public, but they again say they are being picked on.
France is reasonably active in NATO and attacking ISIS, at least to European standards.
I am also sure that they would like to attack us. We are lucky to have 20 miles of ocean between us to slow them down. However I think it is just a matter of time. Either terrorists getting in or “homegrown” terrorists doing it for them.
Don’t forget that some of the former French colonies in Africa have large Muslim populations. IIRC there was documentation found in the vehicle suggesting that the driver may have had joint French/Tunisian nationality.
When Saddam invaded Kuwait, our country was very divided about Bush and Blair going in. However, a sprinkling of WMD threat convinced enough people to back Blair.
With the benefit of hindsight, it is easy to see how Iraq and Syria have become the lawless nightmare that we have now. The various factions fighting under the banner of Islam together with this bunch of IS thugs NEED to be sorted.
Evil8Beezle:
The windscreen is full of bullet holes, so it doesn’t look like the driver was planning on stopping!
assuming nice is driving n the same side of the road as the rest of mainland Europe then who was shooting at the driver…the A team■■?
Going by the interior of the truck not being covered in claret what were they using to shoot at him even if they hit him.Probably the usual pea shooters.Looking at the photo it doesn’t look like the bullets even got through the screen.High alert obviously means coppers armed with toy guns.
Evil8Beezle:
The windscreen is full of bullet holes, so it doesn’t look like the driver was planning on stopping!
assuming nice is driving n the same side of the road as the rest of mainland Europe then who was shooting at the driver…the A team■■?
Where were the police shooting FROM in relation to the lorry? My guess they would also be trying to avoid civilian casualties from their fire and maybe shooting with the sea in front of them rather than buildings.
Bloody difficult to stand up and say how wrong it is when your ‘‘brothers’’ have removed your head the second you speak out of turn.
Too many bloody years has gone by and we, the west, have ponced about bending inside bloody out to crawl up these fanatics combined arse, even the moderates won’t integrate into western culture, this isn’t going to be the last horror and France isn’t going to be the only victim.
A blogger i read regularly keeps tally of how many poor sods the religion of peace kills in terrorist attacks on a monthly basis (something al-beeb and chanel number 4 don’t, nor any MSM outlet come to mention it), the number of attacks and dead and wounded is staggering, religion of peace my arse.
Evil8Beezle:
The windscreen is full of bullet holes, so it doesn’t look like the driver was planning on stopping!
assuming nice is driving n the same side of the road as the rest of mainland Europe then who was shooting at the driver…the A team■■?
Where were the police shooting FROM in relation to the lorry? My guess they would also be trying to avoid civilian casualties from their fire and maybe shooting with the sea in front of them rather than buildings.
If I was a copper whether I had a gun or not I certainly wouldn’t be standing directly in front of a Class 2 hurtling towards me, this isn’t the movies!
My best guess going by the bullet strikes are that the police were stood off to the side and firing across to the driver as the image shows.
They were probably firing MP5’s which use 9mm rounds, no point firing 50 cal rounds at it when they are going to go clean through the vehicle the public and the houses beyond is there?
I also read that the truck had stopped being unable to get past an obstacle and at that point a member of the public jumped up and tried to pull the driver out, then the driver produced a handgun and started shooting at the police, they then shot back and dropped him.
…oh,and…deport the lot…new sign at heathrow and dover…don’t bother to unpack,your going back.!!!..if only 
