Yesterday I started a new job.
This was 3 drivers and 2 trunks, which in the normal World would be 2 double manned trunks but the 3 driver system saves on a salary, so I understand the financial benefits for the company.
How does this system 3 driver thing work ?
Is it legal NOT to put your Digi Card in when you are not doing the driving part of this set up? According to the company it IS.
I did my 4.5 hours driving then swapped over, just as I was going to put my card in slot 2 my co driver said don’t put your car in slot 2, I thought this can’t be right. So it seems in this set ONLY driver records data. Surely this can’t be right.
I always thought it was dodgy when we were on the frizby’s. it cant be classed as double man’d as your not with the 2nd truck in the required time scale.
I always said I would never do it again and stuck to it and never did.
explorer1234:
Yesterday I started a new job.
This was 3 drivers and 2 trunks, which in the normal World would be 2 double manned trunks but the 3 driver system saves on a salary, so I understand the financial benefits for the company.
How does this system 3 driver thing work ?
I’ve no idea, i’ve tried to fathom out a reason for three drivers and can’t. Doesn’t mean there isn;t a reason, just means i can’t work it out !
explorer1234:
Is it legal NOT to put your Digi Card in when you are not doing the driving part of this set up? According to the company it IS.
I did my 4.5 hours driving then swapped over, just as I was going to put my card in slot 2 my co driver said don’t put your car in slot 2, I thought this can’t be right. So it seems in this set ONLY driver records data. Surely this can’t be right.
2 trucks with 3 drivers would be limited by the usual rest rules but it could mean that both trucks could keep moving mathematically all the time for 15 hours
2 x 15 hours for trucks = 30 hours driving time
3 x 10 hours for drivers = 30 hours driving time
at any one time 1 of the drivers would have card in one of number 2 slots on break (first 45 mins of poa in slot 2 counts as break)
explorer1234:
Yesterday I started a new job.
This was 3 drivers and 2 trunks, which in the normal World would be 2 double manned trunks but the 3 driver system saves on a salary, so I understand the financial benefits for the company.
How does this system 3 driver thing work ?
I’ve no idea but as you’ve done it perhaps you could explain how it worked.
explorer1234:
Is it legal NOT to put your Digi Card in when you are not doing the driving part of this set up? According to the company it IS.
I did my 4.5 hours driving then swapped over, just as I was going to put my card in slot 2 my co driver said don’t put your car in slot 2, I thought this can’t be right. So it seems in this set ONLY driver records data. Surely this can’t be right.
Comments please.
No of course it’s not legal or practical for that matter, legally if you don’t put the card in you should be doing manual entries for the missing time, so unless you’re running bent what’s gained by not putting the card in.
You’re supposed to record your working day and by not putting the card in you’re failing to record some of your activities for the shift.
Well here is my update on Monday nights shift.
I am no longer with them as I came to the conclusion it is illegal BUT I cannot find anyone to actually confirm it. It seems Trucking is a straight forward job but made it bloody confusing and not straightforward.
I went for debriefing (that was a laugh) basically how did you get on Driver ? This isn’t or can’t be legal. He wanted me to explain how it was illegal rather than him explain to me that it was.
Basically when their are 2 driver in the one motor only one card is inserted and that’s the driver. So at no point does the second man (passenger as he called it) The T M said This is not a double man because if it was the two cards would be inserted. As such and because this is not double man but two trucks with two drivers and a jump jockey.
I see what is happening and my objection is HOW does VOSA see this.
By the way on the way up the road my last part of the driving was at Southwaithes Services and that is when I went on to my daily rest.Since my card was now in my wallet and wouldn’t be used again till my next shift.
Is this bent ? You bet it is. As in reality when I got back to the depot I helped in opening curtains and undoing straps. If this isn’t unrecorded other work then what is it?.
I was the Jump Jockey.
The two drivers are solo .
Trunk 1 leaves aprox one hour before trunk 2. They run as far as they can, so trunk 1 has the Jockey driving the first part he pulls into services and gets dropped off. Then truck 1 continues to it’s destination the Hub .
The Jockey then waits on the second trunk arriving which covers his break as the 2 trunk will be aprox 60 min’s behind. A point to note: The Jockey DOES NOT put it on break before he ejects his card…Why?
He gets in trunk 2 and drives for another hour and swaps with the other driver. I have to add this point as I hadn’t seen this before… When the Jockey puts his card in, the machine asks Have you been on break since last use or words to that effect. I suppose that covers doing a manual entry and also why I didn’t put it on break when I ejected it from the other trunk.
At the Hub trunk 1 is already their when we arrive in trunk 2.
I this time leave with trunk 1 and drive so far then get dropped off and Trunk 1 continues back to depot.
I wait at services for trunk 2. I drive trunk 2 for another stint and then change over which takes us back to depot.
Their are 4 trunks so this work is done in a rota which means everyone takes a turn.
tachograph:
so unless you’re running bent what’s gained by not putting the card in.
The correct mode entered on your card?
The EU people obviously think POA is the correct mode or they would have had the digital tachograph designed so that other activities could be selected when the vehicle is moving.
tachograph:
so unless you’re running bent what’s gained by not putting the card in.
The correct mode entered on your card?
The EU people obviously think POA is the correct mode or they would have had the digital tachograph designed so that other activities could be selected when the vehicle is moving.
No they don’t. You can select “other work”. The limitations of the software are recgognised, not by way of law strictly, but by way of some sort of derogation, i.e “we’ll count the first 45 mins of POA…etc…” Of course this counts for double manned journeys. In the OP’s case there is no double manned journey. So the derogation to "allow this or that " doesn’t apply. You’ll need to record what you’re doing by way of a manual entry. Are you aware of anything that allows someone NOT double manned to allow the first 45 mins of POA to be “counted” as break ? I’m not.
What the company is instructing them to do is legal. And as it goes, probably the best way to ensure the correct modes are entered manually. You said above its not legal, i’ve no idea how you come to that conclusion.
tachograph:
so unless you’re running bent what’s gained by not putting the card in.
The correct mode entered on your card?
The EU people obviously think POA is the correct mode or they would have had the digital tachograph designed so that other activities could be selected when the vehicle is moving.
No they don’t. You can select “other work”. The limitations of the software are recgognised, not by way of law strictly, but by way of some sort of derogation, i.e “we’ll count the first 45 mins of POA…etc…” Of course this counts for double manned journeys. In the OP’s case there is no double manned journey. So the derogation to "allow this or that " doesn’t apply. You’ll need to record what you’re doing by way of a manual entry. Are you aware of anything that allows someone NOT double manned to allow the first 45 mins of POA to be “counted” as break ? I’m not.
What the company is instructing them to do is legal. And as it goes, probably the best way to ensure the correct modes are entered manually. You said above its not legal, i’ve no idea how you come to that conclusion.
You can’t select other work for slot 2 on a digital tachograph while the vehicle is moving it automatically records POA.
The first 45 minutes of POA count as break whenever there is more than one driver in the vehicle to do the driving as there was in the OPs case, you don’t have to be multi-manning as defined in the regulations for the first 45 minutes of POA to count as break.
When a second crew member is available for driving when necessary, is sitting next to the driver of the vehicle and is not
actively involved in assisting the driver driving the vehicle, a period of 45 minutes of that
crew member’s ‘period of availability’ can be regarded as ‘break’.
The card should be in the tachograph to automatically record the drivers activities, granted if he did a manual entry I doubt anyone is going to say too much apart from questioning the reason not to use the tachograph.
Drivers shall use the record sheets M6 or driver cards every day on which they are driving, starting from the moment they take over the vehicle. The record sheet M6 or driver card shall not be
withdrawn before the end of the daily working period unless its withdrawal
is otherwise authorized. No record sheet M6 or driver
card may be used to cover a period longer than that for which it
is intended.
tachograph: The card should be in the tachograph to automatically record the drivers activities, granted if he did a manual entry I doubt anyone is going to say too much apart from questioning the reason not to use the tachograph.
Drivers shall use the record sheets M6 or driver cards every day on which they are driving**, starting from the moment they take over** the vehicle. The record sheet M6 or driver card shall not be
withdrawn before the end of the daily working period unless its withdrawal
is otherwise authorized. No record sheet M6 or driver
card may be used to cover a period longer than that for which it
is intended.
Sure, who could argue with that. You can also sit in the passenger seat and record a break if you want. Like i said, his companies advice is legal.
tachograph:
you don’t have to be multi-manning as defined in the regulations for the first 45 minutes of POA to count as break.
Is that so ?
but to multi man in the 1st instance don’t you have to be within the vehicle within the 1st hour. that’s assuming your not going to exceed the 15hr shift and when you put your card in you’ll have to input manual entries…
tachograph:
you don’t have to be multi-manning as defined in the regulations for the first 45 minutes of POA to count as break.
Is that so ?
but to multi man in the 1st instance don’t you have to be within the vehicle within the 1st hour. that’s assuming your not going to exceed the 15hr shift and when you put your card in you’ll have to input manual entries…
They’re NOT multi maning in this instance Nick. So this helps us how ? You’ve tacked your statement onto these quotes. Did i miss something?
tachograph:
you don’t have to be multi-manning as defined in the regulations for the first 45 minutes of POA to count as break.
Is that so ?
Yes if VOSA go by the EU guidance note number 2 on (EC)561/2006.
The EU guidance note number 2 clearly states that “When a second crew member is available for driving when necessary, is sitting next to the driver of the vehicle and is not actively involved in assisting the driver driving the vehicle, a period of 45 minutes of that crew member’s ‘period of availability’ can be regarded as ‘break’”, there’s no mention of multi-manning as defined in (EC)561/2006.
In the OPs case there was always a second driver available to help with the driving when he was in a vehicle.
I don’t understand the argument of the manager who said “this is not a double man because if it was the two cards would be inserted”, when it appears it was probably his decision that there should not be 2 cards in the tachograph.
As far as I can see the OP was double manning with one or other of the other drivers throughout the run and should have been recording his activities on his driver card, to be honest I’m struggling to understand what the benefit of not using the driver card was, he wouldn’t have notched up any more working hours because the time would have been POA and as far as I can see he would have still had his legally required breaks.
I think one of the advantages are, as the jump jockey the last part of the shift is not recorded giving me from Sothwhaites to the Depot part of my next daily rest before the next shift rather than starting this when I return to the Depot.
For example (A) reduced working day or (B) if you like starting daily rest period at Southwhaites which is 90 minutes to 2 hours before the actual shift finishes.
Which in turns allows the next shift start with very little chance of a daily rest issues.
explorer1234:
I think one of the advantages are, as the jump jockey the last part of the shift is not recorded giving me from Sothwhaites to the Depot part of my next daily rest before the next shift rather than starting this when I return to the Depot.
For example (A) reduced working day or (B) if you like starting daily rest period at Southwhaites which is 90 minutes to 2 hours before the actual shift finishes.
Which in turns allows the next shift start with very little chance of a daily rest issues.
Given that they didn’t want you to use your driver card I was wondering if the whole shift was being recorded.
explorer1234:
The only time my card was in was when I was driving.
I am 100% positive the 2 other drivers were the same.
So no other mode (POA or Other Work) had been/was selected.
My decision in the end was to jump ship, was I right ? At this point in time I just don’t know. But if in doubt bailout sounds right.
This brings me back to Who are these faceless b@sterds that make up the rules ? As it seems you couldn’t follow them with a tourch.
Whether or not you was right to leave is something only you can decide really.
Personally, if I needed the job I would probably have done the job the way I saw fit and carried on, but this really depends on the person involved, if it made you uncomfortable to the point where you was worried I’d say your only options were to try to change the way the job was done or leave.
Just out of interest, as far as you know were any of you doing manual entries for the time the card was out of the tachograph ?
