Can anyone help with information about the Mk1 Atkinsons used by Jos Walsh of Darwen, late 1960s / early 1970s? I have noted the few photos on this forum and have been provided with the few available photos by the Walsh family, all of which leave one question open about the units.
Forgive my lack of technical knowledge here! The photos of the 3-axle tractor units indicate that the third axle was a drive axle with a pair of dual wheels rather than a push axle 6x2 arrangement, but I’m struggling to get confirmation of this one as the shots are not very clear. And the wheelbase looks to have been significantly increased to accommodate the axle rather than it being ‘squeezed in’ as on my drawing for the 6x2 version. Can anyone provide any information to clarify this?
I’m about to start building a 1/24 scale model of the Mk1 and have been asked to do it as the Jos Walsh unit, so would like to get things as accurate as possible. Any help with the question or information about the Walsh operations Atkinsons generally would be greatly appreciated. The model will be the Mk1 standard style with twin headlamps and chrome bumper.
paulsavage:
Can anyone help with information about the Mk1 Atkinsons used by Jos Walsh of Darwen, late 1960s / early 1970s? I have noted the few photos on this forum and have been provided with the few available photos by the Walsh family, all of which leave one question open about the units.
Forgive my lack of technical knowledge here! The photos of the 3-axle tractor units indicate that the third axle was a drive axle with a pair of dual wheels rather than a push axle 6x2 arrangement, but I’m struggling to get confirmation of this one as the shots are not very clear. And the wheelbase looks to have been significantly increased to accommodate the axle rather than it being ‘squeezed in’ as on my drawing for the 6x2 version. Can anyone provide any information to clarify this?
I’m about to start building a 1/24 scale model of the Mk1 and have been asked to do it as the Jos Walsh unit, so would like to get things as accurate as possible. Any help with the question or information about the Walsh operations Atkinsons generally would be greatly appreciated. The model will be the Mk1 standard style with twin headlamps and chrome bumper.
Many thanks
Paul Savage
Hi Paul.
There’s an ex driver on here called Harry Gill,he used to drive for Joe Walsh,maybe he can help.
Paul I’ll try and explain briefly the use of three axle tractor units from that period. Atkinson did build some 6x2 tractor units in the 60’s as did other makers to capitalise on the 1964 Construction and Use Regulations that allowed 32 Tons Gross Combination Weight, however this could be tricky to achieve with a two axle tractor and tandem axle trailer as the length limits meant the tractor could easily be overloaded on the drive axle. 33ft trailers were mainly the lengths used back then before later changes to the regs allowed 40 Footers to come into use. To enable the max gross of 32Ton on a 33ft trailer an extra axle could be added to make a tri-axle or even better an axle added to the tractor to avoid tractor axle overloading. The Twin Steer tractor known in the industry as a Chinese Six was one answer, two steer axles at the front and a single drive axle, in some cases an Eight Wheel Rigid was converted by shortening the chassis and removing a rear axle. The AEC Mammoth Minor was typical of this layout. The other was the Twin Rear Steer (as in the model pic I put up of the MkII Aki in your other thread) where the second steer axle was moved back and placed in front of the drive axle, the fuel tanks would normally be positioned between the front steer axle and the second steer axle in the space provided. As mentioned Atkinson built both types of layouts depending on customer choice. I believe from what you describe, although difficult to say without you putting a photo up of the Walsh vehicle, that it was the Twin Rear Steer type. The term Push Axle wasn’t used back then this term became more prevalent in the 80’s with the change to 38 tonne Gross Weights. The MkI Twin Rear Steer or RTS3266C namely Rear Twin Steer 32Ton 6 Wheel 6 Cylinder Engine ■■■■■■■ was pretty much the same as the MKII version Silver Knight or later Leader chassis layout and in model form the difference would be negligible apart from of course the cabs. Hope this helps to clarify I know some of Road Transports history can be confusing and difficult to understand without any commercial vehicle know how. There is a site called Truck Modelling Worldwide where you can get answers not only on real life size vehicles but especially in model form, check it out if you are unaware of it. Franky
Thanks for the information Franky - very useful background detail! I spent a few years driving in the 1970s then have had involvement with the manufacturing sector throughout my career, but never actually progressed to the need to understand the more technical elements of trucks. Hence my knowledge has developed from a general interest through my work. This, combined by my taking up modelling after enforced early retirement as a means of keeping the old brain active, has resulted in the truck modelling, although only taking centre stage earlier this year, being quite a large part of my life at the moment.
I have recently joined the Truck Modelling Worldwide group (thanks for the suggestion) and that is a superb source of information.
The image below is of the only two photos I have been able to obtain (both from the Walsh family) which show the rear axle arrangement in any sort of clarity, and it’s from these that I’ve made my assumption that the `rears are 'driven - the hub arrangements being the ‘give-away’? As for the particular model, it is the vehicle in the third pic which I’m looking to build - Mk1 radiator, twin heads and chrome grill (the current limit of my identification skills!!) which reflect the resin cab kit on which the model will be based. Unfortunately, it does not give a clear view of the rear axles to even confirm to my old eyesight if the thing had two of them! So I am assuming here that this unit has the three axle arrangement of the others! Modeller’s licence? Maybe, but if necessary, I’ll work to modify the model to suit the single headlamp unit. I have ‘borrowed’ this photo from elsewhere on the forum purely to illustrate this post which I hope is ok to do.
Paul the top two pics of the Walsh units are 6x4 double drive as you suspected and no doubt used in their heavy haulage operations, Atkinson did make changes to the original MkI single headlight cabs to double headlight sometime around 1962/3 so if you intend building the 6x4 version the Modellers Resource MkI double headlight cab will suffice providing of course Walsh ran that model if your wanting an exact replica but presumably they would have. It does mean you will need a double drive rear axle set up which would have been on steel multi leaf suspension. Italeri kits of this suspension are getting rare as most now use air suspension in the kits but maybe you have that sorted. Just out of interest the MkI cab still kept the original external radiator, the filler being on the top but the MkII cabs used a false external radiator the real one being positioned behind and there were differences to cab height, width etc from the earlier MkI cabs. Franky.
Thanks for this latest reply Franky. I have the Modellers Resource Mk1 cab kit which, like most of these now out of production things, proved quite pricey, but when you see the ones really wanted becoming available, you have to take the opportunity! I also jumped the gun somewhat and obtained the dual drive rear steel leaf suspension kit, again from Modellers Resource. So it’s something of a relief to hear that my assumption regarding the drive was a decent one! Whilst I always like to get the models as accurate as my skills allow, I must admit that ‘looking the part’ is more important to me than spot-on accuracy - so I think that unless I can find more photos of the truck which contradict, I’ll be doing the one I described earlier. At least I now know it will be right ‘in spirit’!!!
I aim to build the Mk2 version in Bowkers of Blackburn livery alongside this and have the MR cab kit for this. This one is a much more standard build with plenty of photos of the preserved one, so doesn’t have the amount of guesswork as the Walsh Mk1.
My key memories of my time directly in the industry are around the Fords, Bedfords and Commers which I drove and of the several Atkinsons and ERF units I worked on, but I can see now that I only scratched the surface of understanding how they worked at the time! I had to move away from truck driving altogether following a health issue, which is something I regretted, but the modelling has rekindled the interest and even at this stage in my life, I find this new learning to be very worthwhile. That you’ve taken the trouble to help is very much appreciated!
This picture shows the type of spring hanger bracket used by Atkinson for their double drive bogies of the period, IIRC the rear end was similar. There are many Atkinson and other make pictures on this site.
Thanks for the photos Cav - I’ve been so focused on trying to find very specific detail for this particular unit that I haven’t really been looking too generally for possible similar arrangements on other types… These are certainly a big help.
No problem Paul glad to help it can be difficult sometimes to get the specs for a certain vehicle especially if they are older and not much info around for them. I did find these pics on the net that will maybe help more with the MkI 6x4 and it seems it did use a four spring steel rear suspension, the wheel base may be worked out by measuring the width of a model wheel and looking at the pics see how many widths distance between front axle and center of rear bogie, not dead on but may give you a rough measurement, when I scratched any chassis I always rounded off to the nearest whole number anyway for ease which won’t be noticed in 1/24 scale. Hope these help a bit more, the inner cab pic is handy. Franky.
That’s yet more superb detail thanks Franky. From what I’m seeing, the double suspension from the kit will need its axle centres reducing a little to bring the wheels closer together, but that shouldn’t be too much of a problem - I’ve done an more difficult jobs, usually by eye, but usually finish up ok. And your tip re dimensions is something I’ve grown used to using. As I say, final appearance is more important to me than anything else - if it looks the part with a good quality finish, it will do for what I want. But getting it to look the part still needs a lot of background work, especially for the oddball ancients I am developing a habit of building! Making the input from here absolutely invaluable.
six and eight wheel double drive Atkinson would have had Kirkstall BDDR axles which for the lead drive axle at least are a very distinctive shape, heavy haulage may have had these or Kirkstall Worm drive axles. The pictures from the tread below in an Australian Forum give some idea of the shape of the BDDR axle.
The Modellers Resource double drive rear leaf kit is the Kirkstall unit and doesn’t look much different from the photos in your link Cav, I’ve attached a photo with Steve’s (Modelling Resource) permission to illustrate the unit. I think for the purpose based on the information I’m receiving through the forum, it does the job very well? There are differences between the kit and the photos, and I do think that once I get the chassis drawn up to suit the photos, I will need to shorten it a little, otherwise I’m happy to use it.
Frankydobo:
Paul I’ll try and explain briefly the use of three axle tractor units from that period. Atkinson did build some 6x2 tractor units in the 60’s as did other makers to capitalise on the 1964 Construction and Use Regulations that allowed 32 Tons Gross Combination Weight, however this could be tricky to achieve with a two axle tractor and tandem axle trailer as the length limits meant the tractor could easily be overloaded on the drive axle. 33ft trailers were mainly the lengths used back then before later changes to the regs allowed 40 Footers to come into use. To enable the max gross of 32Ton on a 33ft trailer an extra axle could be added to make a tri-axle or even better an axle added to the tractor to avoid tractor axle overloading. The Twin Steer tractor known in the industry as a Chinese Six was one answer, two steer axles at the front and a single drive axle, in some cases an Eight Wheel Rigid was converted by shortening the chassis and removing a rear axle. The AEC Mammoth Minor was typical of this layout. The other was the Twin Rear Steer (as in the model pic I put up of the MkII Aki in your other thread) where the second steer axle was moved back and placed in front of the drive axle, the fuel tanks would normally be positioned between the front steer axle and the second steer axle in the space provided. As mentioned Atkinson built both types of layouts depending on customer choice. I believe from what you describe, although difficult to say without you putting a photo up of the Walsh vehicle, that it was the Twin Rear Steer type. The term Push Axle wasn’t used back then this term became more prevalent in the 80’s with the change to 38 tonne Gross Weights. The MkI Twin Rear Steer or RTS3266C namely Rear Twin Steer 32Ton 6 Wheel 6 Cylinder Engine ■■■■■■■ was pretty much the same as the MKII version Silver Knight or later Leader chassis layout and in model form the difference would be negligible apart from of course the cabs. Hope this helps to clarify I know some of Road Transports history can be confusing and difficult to understand without any commercial vehicle know how. There is a site called Truck Modelling Worldwide where you can get answers not only on real life size vehicles but especially in model form, check it out if you are unaware of it. Franky
All jolly comprehensive! Atkinson did start out by offering the Chinese 6 tractor, but the more common layout with the second steer set back, was first developed by an operator, Gordon Stamper of Culgaith, with a Primrose conversion on DAO643C:
This led to the development of the factory-built TRS model (Tractor Rear Steer), which Atkinson branded as the ‘Rear Steer’. The TRS replaced the old TS model and gave better protection against the drive axle overloads that you mention. I own a TRS - actually the GVW for the tractor is only 18T, but the individual axle weights are 5.5, 5.5 & 10T
P.S. whose motor is this in your photo of the rear three quarter view?
240 Gardner wrote; P.S. whose motor is this in your photo of the rear three quarter view?
The pic just came from looking around the internet so it had no info with it, it does look to be in preservation mode but a shame there is no Reg no on it to give it an ID or even how old the photo is, there can’t be many of these about. Interesting what you wrote on the Twin Steer cheers Franky.
Thanks for all the replies to my post - I may not have any more Jos Walsh images to work with, but the amount of detail that’s been provided is a great help to building the overall picture of what I need to be doing.
One particularly interesting piece was an off-forum message from ex Walsh driver Harry Gill - thanks again Harry! - which opens up a whole new picture of the use of ‘home made’ solutions of the era including Walsh’s use of “drive-under, bolt-on” third axle units for use as needed. That really does open up a whole new opportunity for a nicely bespoke solution to the model with a bit of freedom of expression allowed (aka modeller’s licence)!!
Perhaps that’s something else for a topic? I’m already running a model project in the background of a Bowker ERF A Series tractor which was extended in-house and converted to a beavertail recovery truck. (Photos of that beast anyone■■?) This industry just gets more and more interesting!!!
paulsavage:
I’m already running a model project in the background of a Bowker ERF A Series tractor which was extended in-house and converted to a beavertail recovery truck. (Photos of that beast anyone■■?) This industry just gets more and more interesting!!!
This forum is incredible! The information being made available so willingly is making a big difference to the success of the model projects.
The ERF photos are something which, like the Jos Walsh ones, have proved to be very elusive, and these latest contributions are once again filling very big gaps in the detail for me. Brilliant!! And greatly appreciated thanks.
The big missing link now for this one is the winch and a good rear shot of the ramps. I live in hope!
Thankyou so much for taking the trouble to reply.
On a general note, i may not be much of a trucker, but if anyone thinks i can help with details from my own developments / research, no problem. Please ask
The last I heard, it was still in this yard - I suspect it’s not a million miles from you. It might be worth contacting Frank Hilton through Flickr to see if it’s still there, or if he took any more photos.
