Thanks for yet more quality information! The photos and details provided are a massive help in getting the models to a much more accurate state than I ever thought possible and as always, the contribution is very much appreciated. I have just sent Frank Hilton a message re the ERF as you suggest, so fingers crossed, he does have the missing link!
As for the build, things will slow down a little in the coming weeks thanks to something of a health shock last week which will take up a considerable amount of time in the next couple of months, but I still hope to start on the chassis for both the Walsh’s Mk1 and the Borderer later this week with the builds taking place alongside each other. The ERF is an ongoing background project, but is already sitting there with chassis and deck built and cab painted! I’ll get something posted to show that in the next couple of days - your comments would definitely be welcome in helping make best use of this new detail information!
paulsavage:
Thanks for yet more quality information! The photos and details provided are a massive help in getting the models to a much more accurate state than I ever thought possible and as always, the contribution is very much appreciated. I have just sent Frank Hilton a message re the ERF as you suggest, so fingers crossed, he does have the missing link!
As for the build, things will slow down a little in the coming weeks thanks to something of a health shock last week which will take up a considerable amount of time in the next couple of months, but I still hope to start on the chassis for both the Walsh’s Mk1 and the Borderer later this week with the builds taking place alongside each other. The ERF is an ongoing background project, but is already sitting there with chassis and deck built and cab painted! I’ll get something posted to show that in the next couple of days - your comments would definitely be welcome in helping make best use of this new detail information!
You’re welcome, Paul, and best wishes on the health front
As ‘promised’, a couple of photos of the Bowker beavertail under construction. An awful lot of work still to do with levelling up, fitting etc for the cab and deck then it’s on to the detail - ramps and winch in particular. I’ve built this so far relying on two key photos, neither of which have been brilliant, but have enabled me to get the basic arrangement in place. These latest shots are really the icing on the cake - the “ERF and Ethel” photo in particular confirming the overall dimensions / proportions are pretty accurate, and will help get somewhere close to the level of accuracy I am aiming to achieve.
paulsavage:
As ‘promised’, a couple of photos of the Bowker beavertail under construction. An awful lot of work still to do with levelling up, fitting etc for the cab and deck then it’s on to the detail - ramps and winch in particular. I’ve built this so far relying on two key photos, neither of which have been brilliant, but have enabled me to get the basic arrangement in place. These latest shots are really the icing on the cake - the “ERF and Ethel” photo in particular confirming the overall dimensions / proportions are pretty accurate, and will help get somewhere close to the level of accuracy I am aiming to achieve.
That’s looking great, Paul! Thanks for the photos
So, after giving you all a break from my questions on this thread, I’m back with the one thing that is really intriguing me - the demountable third axle used on the Walsh Atkinsons as mentioned by Harry. I’ve found some details online of such a system in the US where the tractor unit is simply backed onto the extra axle, connected, plumbed and away, but anything remotely related to such things in 1960’s Lancashire is proving impossible to find, even in my search on this forum. Perhaps I’m using the wrong search terms?
Before I give up and do the Jos Walsh model as a straightforward double drive axle unit, does anyone have any knowledge / thoughts / images or anything else which may help visualise what could have been used in this instance? It would be a nice touch to be able to create something to more accurately reflect the actual beast. I think I may be asking the impossible, but this does seem to be the best place to find out if such detail exists! I really do wish I’d taken more notice of things in my limited driving days!! 
There was a system called the Monitor-Ancrum add on axle but this was for the later 38tonne limit that would soon be introduced in 1983 as opposed to your MkI’s 1964 weight regs, however it was likely a similar idea. Did your source for the Walsh add on axle say whether it was done in house in the Walsh workshops or by a specialist company? There is also a couple of pics of the Dyson Dolly that converted a 4x2 into a 6x2, I’ll add the pic with the Monitor-Ancrum which is very similar. Making up a simple construction as in the photo wouldn’t be too difficult or be too far from the real thing, in fact Walsh may well have used these Dyson Dolly attachments. Franky.
Thanks once again for your information Franky. The comment Harry made in his message read “home made overlays that could convert a 4 wheeled unit into a 6 or 8 wheeler by just backing under it and connecting a suzie or two most of the equipment being built in-house”, but as he ended, his memory from the 60s isn’t what it used to be, so that is the extent of the detail. But it does indicate the likelihood of an in-house manufacture.
Bear in mind that I’m really looking to achieve a result here which ‘looks the part’ rather than provides a rivet-by-rivet record of the actual unit, I think that I can use your information and the photo to get just the result I need. It will certainly add a bit extra character to a model of a truck which, in my eye at least, already displays a tremendous amount of the stuff! But then again, there may be just a little 1960s bias coming out there!
I’ll get to work on drafting out a simple plan now to adapt my drawing and judge feasibility. Really appreciate you taking the time to help!
No problems Paul, I’II just point out that the Dolly would have its own fifth wheel and a kingpin under the frame front to connect into the Tractors own fifth wheel with some way of locking the frame in place so it was rigid for travel but you’ve likely sussed that. Good luck with the build it will be interesting to see the result. Franky.
Frankydobo:
There was a system called the Monitor-Ancrum add on axle but this was for the later 38tonne limit that would soon be introduced in 1983 as opposed to your MkI’s 1964 weight regs, however it was likely a similar idea. Did your source for the Walsh add on axle say whether it was done in house in the Walsh workshops or by a specialist company? There is also a couple of pics of the Dyson Dolly that converted a 4x2 into a 6x2, I’ll add the pic with the Monitor-Ancrum which is very similar. Making up a simple construction as in the photo wouldn’t be too difficult or be too far from the real thing, in fact Walsh may well have used these Dyson Dolly attachments. Franky.
I can assist you with this one, since I took that pic and I was driving it that day - the only time I ever took it out with the dolly attached.
I believe that this is a genuine Dyson dolly, and it came to Bowker from MAT when Bowker where the Northern agents for MAT in the 1960s. It had originally operated behind an older Mk.1 Atkinson belonging to MAT. It was used in service behind Bowker 47, and which itself operated under contract to MAT at Barking for the first four years of its life, initially on a B Licence. This dolly was used for jobs using a 4-in-line low-loader, and it was later modified to go on the back of Borderer no.58, before being abandoned to lie for many years at the back of the yard in Blackburn.
It was made functional so that it could be moved when the business transferred from Blackburn to Preston, and I took it to a BCVM event at Farington in between. It wasn’t used again and was later transferred out to a gentleman with a Mk.1 Atkinson tractor, and who I think is refurbishing it fully. I never used it to pull a trailer, but I remember it used to hop across the road on anything other than a gentle turn. Johnny Hemelryk, who drove 47 in service throughout its life, used to tell me that uphill starts with the dolly and a heavy load were difficult because the weight transferred to the dolly and reduced traction considerably. Since the Atkinson’s multi-pull ratchet hand brake operated only on the drive axle, he had to be careful parking it facing up hill too.
All is becoming clear! Comparing this with photos of GBV 759E in its normal state, the dolly unit coupling system is actually arranged like that of a trailer with the tractor driving under and using the fifth wheel to make the connection? The dolly fifth wheel then provides the coupling for the trailer, which will sit higher on the chassis than on a conventional arrangement? That explains Harry’s comment that they would drive underneath the dolly to connect. I can certainly understand the arrangement not being ideal from the driver point of view! I think my confusion was not helped by the American system I found online (the only reference found) which uses a completely different arrangement and didn’t really make sense in this case.
What about the suspension? would this have been a conventional steel leaf arrangement?
Really appreciate the information and photos - thanks Gents! It takes a while for the penny to drop these days, but without these replies, I think I would have simply not bothered!
Extremely rough initial interpretation from the photos, but is this the sort of thing I should be looking at developing for the dolly axle style? Any thoughts on suspension for the axle or some sort of leg structure for when the dolly is off the tractor unit?
If steel leaf springs were used for the suspension they would have to be short to avoid hitting against the tractors rear spring brackets. An air bag would be better between axle and chassis with a mono leaf half spring from axle to rear of Dolly chassis to keep the axle aligned. There were air suspensions back then mainly used on trailers, Dunlop was one maker. Air bags then tended to look a bit like the Michelin man arms with about three cushions, if you get my meaning. You will need extra Susie cables, Electric for lights, Red/Yellow airlines too from unit to Dolly connections, no Blue line as the axle would just need single brake chambers for Service (yellow) brakes and the Emergency (Red) constant supply to release the Dolly brakes, I would presume the Dolly worked similar to a trailer (although very much shorter!) with an air tank too. The drawing you have looks fine. Franky.
Thanks Franky. Your suspension comment is the only logical solution as I started to realise as my sketch became more developed. Whilst the photo of the Bowker unit is not exactly of highest resolution for picking out detail, it does give a decent enough overall view of the construction.
I now think it’s worth me going ahead with this - it will give something of a ‘different’ feel to things, and if it does prove beyond my abilities, at least the rest of the model will not be affected.
paulsavage:
All is becoming clear! Comparing this with photos of GBV 759E in its normal state, the dolly unit coupling system is actually arranged like that of a trailer with the tractor driving under and using the fifth wheel to make the connection? The dolly fifth wheel then provides the coupling for the trailer, which will sit higher on the chassis than on a conventional arrangement? That explains Harry’s comment that they would drive underneath the dolly to connect. I can certainly understand the arrangement not being ideal from the driver point of view! I think my confusion was not helped by the American system I found online (the only reference found) which uses a completely different arrangement and didn’t really make sense in this case.
What about the suspension? would this have been a conventional steel leaf arrangement?
Really appreciate the information and photos - thanks Gents! It takes a while for the penny to drop these days, but without these replies, I think I would have simply not bothered!
That’s exactly right. The dolly has steel springs, hence the gap between it and the drive axle I suppose. I think I did have some other photos of it from those days, but not sure if I still have them. All the time I knew it, it sat propped up on a 45 gallon drum, and I’m not sure it ever had any formal means of supporting itself when not in use. I can’t even remember now what we did to couple it up - maybe it was even done in my absence, but it’s over 30 years ago now!
As you say, the resulting turntable position is rather high on the dolly, particularly where you’re working with a low-loader, where the object is to minimise height - the clue is in the name!
I think you’ve just given me the ideal solution re the ‘legs’ - I intend having the dolly as a loose part of the model as I would do with a trailer, so setting it up on an oil drum in the display case would add the final touch to what I suspect could well be a unique model!
Can I just say from a general point of view that I have come across many postings both here and on Flickr from ‘240 Gardner’ (sorry - I have yet to pick up on your first name!!) and the level of descriptive content in these has been a big part in helping my understanding of the detail for a lot more than just the particular issues I have asked about on the forum. A true source of information, and a great help in getting things some-bit right in my modelling attempts. Thanks!
paulsavage:
I think you’ve just given me the ideal solution re the ‘legs’ - I intend having the dolly as a loose part of the model as I would do with a trailer, so setting it up on an oil drum in the display case would add the final touch to what I suspect could well be a unique model!
Can I just say from a general point of view that I have come across many postings both here and on Flickr from ‘240 Gardner’ (sorry - I have yet to pick up on your first name!!) and the level of descriptive content in these has been a big part in helping my understanding of the detail for a lot more than just the particular issues I have asked about on the forum. A true source of information, and a great help in getting things some-bit right in my modelling attempts. Thanks!
Ah yes, that Flickr stream belongs to some bloke called Chris Gardner, who worked for Bowker for almost 20 years. He does waffle on a bit…
It’s been a while since I first asked for information on the dolly axle arrangement for the Atkinson model build, and in spite of a great response here with details and a couple of “in use” photos, detailed images of the unit proved very difficult to find - until I was handed a CD with several good photos of a Dyson Dolly unit in various stages of dismantling. By bringing everything together, I was able to produce a passable 1/24 scale model of the beast. So, with thanks to all who helped, here is the finished article - not perfect, but looks the part and suits my purpose rather well.
used to use a couple of these
Thanks Chris - my original thoughts on this thing weren’t too far out, but getting the photos made it worth putting blade to plastic.
And thanks for posting the photo “Dispatcher”. Every bit of reference is still very much welcome!
