If I was you Sundial I’d make a few phone calls to insurance companies dealing with hgv drivers and seek their opinion as to which penalty is worse in their view. You can offer mitigation to the magistrates by saying that any action on their part which would cause hardship should cause them to consider other penalty options. Please make sure you appear personally as this goes better with the bench. Take all insurance certificates with you. At this stage of the proceedings making a good impression can sway things in your favour.
sundial:
I would appreciate any advice that anyone can give me. i have to go to court next month for allowing my son to drive my car without the correct insurance. After speaking with a solicitor i have been told that u will receive 6-8 points plus a fine. As the endorsement will be an in10 i know that most haulage companies will not employ me. The solicitor has said that the court might be prepared to swap the 6-8 points for a short ban. which would mean that the punishment is served and in the past than having 6-8 points on my licence for 3 years and removed after 4 years. In your opinions what would make me more employable the 6-8 points or a previous passed ban. i am not working for anyone at the moment. Please no smart sarcastic remarks. im returning to work after a back op and this has tyrned into a nightmare. many thanks Glyn.
You will still have the IN code on your license even if you take the ban. Both will make you very unattractive to an employer.
Personally I’d be more worried about your insurance renewal. IN codes, bans along with DD codes mean a ■■■■■■■ huge hike.
limeyphil:
send off for a duplicate licence. You’ve lost your clean one .
Take the points, but use your clean one for employment purposes.
The “short ban” will probably be 6 months. No points on return, but it’ll still say IN10, ban 6 months. so no benefit really.
That is outright fraud. You really are an arse aren’t you?
What happens if his employer or a prospective employer does a license check with DVLA? It’ll come back as having points on and then he’ll look a right dodgy character and it’ll be instant dismissal for gross misconduct. And if he has an accident the insurers could use the fact he lied to get out of paying or sue his employer for the cost of the payout to the third party.
Conor:
limeyphil:
send off for a duplicate licence. You’ve lost your clean one .
Take the points, but use your clean one for employment purposes.
The “short ban” will probably be 6 months. No points on return, but it’ll still say IN10, ban 6 months. so no benefit really.That is outright fraud. You really are an arse aren’t you?
What happens if his employer or a prospective employer does a license check with DVLA? It’ll come back as having points on and then he’ll look a right dodgy character and it’ll be instant dismissal for gross misconduct. And if he has an accident the insurers could use the fact he lied to get out of paying or sue his employer for the cost of the payout to the third party.
This ^^^
If you take the advice of Limeyphil and get caught, you’ll not be worrying about getting/keeping a job…
Chances are HM will be putting you up for a bit. A deliberate intention to commit fraud and to drive while disqualified and not in accordance with your licence, and without insurance (without the correct licence any insurance is invalid), and to intentionally try and conceal it is likely to be treated pretty seriously. If you were to have an accident as well and injure someone you’ll be ■■■■■■. Don’t do it.
Conor:
limeyphil:
send off for a duplicate licence. You’ve lost your clean one .
Take the points, but use your clean one for employment purposes.
The “short ban” will probably be 6 months. No points on return, but it’ll still say IN10, ban 6 months. so no benefit really.That is outright fraud. You really are an arse aren’t you?
What happens if his employer or a prospective employer does a license check with DVLA? It’ll come back as having points on and then he’ll look a right dodgy character and it’ll be instant dismissal for gross misconduct. And if he has an accident the insurers could use the fact he lied to get out of paying or sue his employer for the cost of the payout to the third party.
I’d prefer to play it a little dodgy and have cash on the hip, rather than some that live in a cardboard box with the satisfaction that they did everything above board to be where they are.
Well, i guess i am an arse. 
I get drawn towards money, like a moth towards light. and if there is a hurdle in the way, I go through it. I don’t turn round and walk away, I don’t turn the other cheek. I go for it head on and never worry about the consequences. If they want to call DVLA for a licence check, Then they would be looking for a new driver, They should trust me. I don’t know why. But they should. 
ps. all my licences are clean.
I am not interested in dodgy licences. i made a mistake by allowing my son who is 24 to drive my car thinking that as he has a fully comp pilicy on his own car he would be able to drive mine on a third party basis. only after the caution did we notice on his Tescos policy it stated over 25 only for third party ins. i dont want to make it worse by doing anything worse. no other vehicles were involved just a routine stop.
ha ha , all i see in haulage press is how great this site is and so , having joined and been on it tonight i see 2 guys asking for advice and they get told not only to connive to fraudulently obtain employment , but the “worse case senario” outcome is at least time in the jail , jesus wept in a bucket guys ! every company i have applied for work from does license checks and ! it may not be just a case of a fella simply walking out, once found out and that is the end of it ,the prospective employer may just take it apon himself to inform dvla/vosa . i reckon perhaps VOSA /dvla have alook at these sites every now and then, maybe Co. owners /employers do too, thing is , easy to advise someone to break the law when you aint the one answering for the ■■■■ when it hits the fan.once you dug the hole deep enough ,commence pulling the dirt in on top of yourself fellas, and some drivers wonder why bosses treat us like we would have trouble walking and chewing at the same time.
w.l.d.d.i. !:
ha ha , all i see in haulage press is how great this site is and so , having joined and been on it tonight i see 2 guys asking for advice and they get told not only to connive to fraudulently obtain employment , but the “worse case senario” outcome is at least time in the jail , jesus wept in a bucket guys ! every company i have applied for work from does license checks and ! it may not be just a case of a fella simply walking out, once found out and that is the end of it ,the prospective employer may just take it apon himself to inform dvla/vosa . i reckon perhaps VOSA /dvla have alook at these sites every now and then, maybe Co. owners /employers do too, thing is , easy to advise someone to break the law when you aint the one answering for the [zb] when it hits the fan.once you dug the hole deep enough ,commence pulling the dirt in on top of yourself fellas, and some drivers wonder why bosses treat us like we would have trouble walking and chewing at the same time.
You ain’t been here long. You don’t want to pay too much attention to Limeyphils’ raving! 
limeyphil:
Conor:
limeyphil:
send off for a duplicate licence. You’ve lost your clean one .
Take the points, but use your clean one for employment purposes.
The “short ban” will probably be 6 months. No points on return, but it’ll still say IN10, ban 6 months. so no benefit really.That is outright fraud. You really are an arse aren’t you?
What happens if his employer or a prospective employer does a license check with DVLA? It’ll come back as having points on and then he’ll look a right dodgy character and it’ll be instant dismissal for gross misconduct. And if he has an accident the insurers could use the fact he lied to get out of paying or sue his employer for the cost of the payout to the third party.
I’d prefer to play it a little dodgy and have cash on the hip, rather than some that live in a cardboard box with the satisfaction that they did everything above board to be where they are.
Well, i guess i am an arse.
I get drawn towards money, like a moth towards light. and if there is a hurdle in the way, I go through it. I don’t turn round and walk away, I don’t turn the other cheek. I go for it head on and never worry about the consequences. If they want to call DVLA for a licence check, Then they would be looking for a new driver, They should trust me. I don’t know why. But they should.
ps. all my licences are clean.
Why don’t you just buy a ski mask and shot gun and pop down your local Nat West if that’s your attitude?
sundial:
i made a mistake by allowing my son who is 24 to drive my car thinking that as he has a fully comp pilicy on his own car he would be able to drive mine on a third party basis. only after the caution did we notice on his Tescos policy it stated over 25 only for third party ins. i dont want to make it worse by doing anything worse. no other vehicles were involved just a routine stop.
I’d get a different solicitor.
You didn’t explain it like this in the first place.
You have very little to worry about. Magistrates are also parents. You’ll probably get a fine at most, and that’s if you’re daft enough to plead guilty.
You may be expected to make sure that you son is insured, You are not expected to read the small print of his policy, Only your own. Are you expected to check his licence with DVLA? No.
You are worrying over [zb] all. It was a genuine mistake.
When i go to court i’m usually trying to get off with something. It’s not right when the police can’t be bothered to use discretion in straightforward clear cases like yours.
Derf:
limeyphil:
Conor:
limeyphil:
send off for a duplicate licence. You’ve lost your clean one .
Take the points, but use your clean one for employment purposes.
The “short ban” will probably be 6 months. No points on return, but it’ll still say IN10, ban 6 months. so no benefit really.That is outright fraud. You really are an arse aren’t you?
What happens if his employer or a prospective employer does a license check with DVLA? It’ll come back as having points on and then he’ll look a right dodgy character and it’ll be instant dismissal for gross misconduct. And if he has an accident the insurers could use the fact he lied to get out of paying or sue his employer for the cost of the payout to the third party.
I’d prefer to play it a little dodgy and have cash on the hip, rather than some that live in a cardboard box with the satisfaction that they did everything above board to be where they are.
Well, i guess i am an arse.
I get drawn towards money, like a moth towards light. and if there is a hurdle in the way, I go through it. I don’t turn round and walk away, I don’t turn the other cheek. I go for it head on and never worry about the consequences. If they want to call DVLA for a licence check, Then they would be looking for a new driver, They should trust me. I don’t know why. But they should.
ps. all my licences are clean.Why don’t you just buy a ski mask and shot gun and pop down your local Nat West if that’s your attitude?
Probably 'cos he’s just a male cow excrement-er I would suggest…!!!
I don’t believe a firm employing anyone full time will get rid of them on the basis of any kind of endorsement below 12 points totted up.
It’s getting work that is difficult with an IN code - since they are seeing it as “Willful Insurance Fiddler” laid on in this case for not shopping the lad for ‘driving and taking away’. It’s a pointed stick that looks crappy with either option though to be sure. Bust yourself, or your son. Horrible choice. 
Around here, anyone with any IN endorsement code is treated with as much contempt as having any DD or CD codes. You can have 9 points for 3 x speeding offences and get a job no bother, but 6-8 IN?
You’ll be able to drive the car, but not sign up as a professional for 4 years.
Every time I’ve turned up at a new agency with my clean licence, they are straight onto the DVLA premium rate hotline to check it.
I suggest that you won’t get away with flashing a second clean bit of paper, hoping they won’t check the real status on the hotline. 
limeyphil:
sundial:
i made a mistake by allowing my son who is 24 to drive my car thinking that as he has a fully comp pilicy on his own car he would be able to drive mine on a third party basis. only after the caution did we notice on his Tescos policy it stated over 25 only for third party ins. i dont want to make it worse by doing anything worse. no other vehicles were involved just a routine stop.I’d get a different solicitor.
You didn’t explain it like this in the first place.
You have very little to worry about. Magistrates are also parents. You’ll probably get a fine at most, and that’s if you’re daft enough to plead guilty.
You may be expected to make sure that you son is insured, You are not expected to read the small print of his policy, Only your own. Are you expected to check his licence with DVLA? No.
You are worrying over [zb] all. It was a genuine mistake.
When i go to court i’m usually trying to get off with something. It’s not right when the police can’t be bothered to use discretion in straightforward clear cases like yours.
You’re digging yourself a bigger hole here…
I don"t know if this is going to be much help my friend , but from experience , and believe i have it , 2 things spring to mind …
Don"t bother with a Solicitor , they , imho , tend to make things worse in Court and there bloody expensive !
From personnal experience i have ALWAYS found it better to go on your own and plead your own defence . My personnal example being as follows :
1995 get i got caught exceeeding 100mph in my car on the M25 at 4am in the morning . No contest , bang to rights . Go to Court . At the time i already had 6 points ( all speeding ) , and was looking at a minimum 6 month ban . I pleaded my case of needing my licence for my job etc etc , time of day the offence was commited , hardship etc etc…yes i got a ban , but only for 10 days . My employer at the time booked me off on " holiday " for 2 weeks
My appointed Court Solicitor said i should just plead guilty and keep my mouth shut . If i had took his advice i would probably got 6 months !
Take all your paperwork to Court with you , show them that it was a genuine mistake and ask the Bench for leniency…oh , and with all due respect , don"t be afraid to kiss ■■■ to the Bench in Court , the more " Sir / ma"m " comments you throw in the mix the more it looks/sounds like you are genuinly worried for the consequences etc …
These are all my views mate…
Good Luck my friend 
limeyphil:
sundial:
i made a mistake by allowing my son who is 24 to drive my car thinking that as he has a fully comp pilicy on his own car he would be able to drive mine on a third party basis. only after the caution did we notice on his Tescos policy it stated over 25 only for third party ins. i dont want to make it worse by doing anything worse. no other vehicles were involved just a routine stop.I’d get a different solicitor.
You didn’t explain it like this in the first place.
You have very little to worry about. Magistrates are also parents. You’ll probably get a fine at most, and that’s if you’re daft enough to plead guilty.
Phil,
Which planet are you from?
I think it’s blindingly obvious that the police have enough evidence for a conviction, so why say “if you’re daft enough to plead guilty?” 
A not guilty plea would waste a lot of court/police/CPS time and would have to result in a penalty that reflects this. A not guilty plea would also require the production of proof of valid insurance, which everybody seems to accept isn’t going to happen.
The first line of sundial’s post that I’ve quoted above is exactly what to say in court after entering a guilty plea.
He checked that his son has insurance, which is a world apart from not checking and then allowing his son to drive the car. His only mistake was to have assumed that his son’s policy covered him, which as you said, was a genuine mistake.
I know it’s not been mentioned, but maybe the son told sundial that his insurance covered him, which would make a difference in that he was one step removed from the truth. That’s not the same as a concoted story about TWOC and should be discussed with a solicitor.
limeyphil:
It’s not right when the police can’t be bothered to use discretion in straightforward clear cases like yours.
Discretion can only be shown in some cases, and this isn’t one of them.
Anybody who isn’t insured (whether you call it a technicality or not) remains uninsured, it’s that simple.
IMHO, and on that basis, the only option is a guilty plea and an explanation of all mitigating circumstances, such as those put forward by MrSumo.
If an uninsured person drives and has a blameworthy accident, they are personally liable for all losses that anybody suffers in connection with the accident. Then they still get done for not having insurance.
Given that most people don’t have the financial resources to cover such potential losses, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that there’s no discretion available to the police. IMHO, the police are doing everybody, including an uninsured driver, a favour when they take an uninsured driver off the roads.
limeyphil:
I get drawn towards money, like a moth towards light. and if there is a hurdle in the way, I go through it. I don’t turn round and walk away, I don’t turn the other cheek. I go for it head on and never worry about the consequences.
So how would it play if you were hit and injured by an at fault uninsured driver?
Of course, you’d accept that it was all a misunderstanding because of a technicality, then you’d show discretion and not make a claim eh??
Your world is a very strange place Phil.
sundial:
I am not interested in dodgy licences. i made a mistake by allowing my son who is 24 to drive my car thinking that as he has a fully comp pilicy on his own car he would be able to drive mine on a third party basis. only after the caution did we notice on his Tescos policy it stated over 25 only for third party ins. i dont want to make it worse by doing anything worse. no other vehicles were involved just a routine stop.
Forget the solicitor, it’ll cost you an arm and a leg and the outcome will be the same regardless. What I would do is go on my own, smartly dressed and explain to the magistrate what you just have above and make a lot of apologetic noises along with mentioning that you’ll suffer exceptional hardship if you get 6 or more points or a ban and are likely to lose your job. Assuming that this is your first offence - or at least you’re not a habitual offender - from my own experiences of being in court most magistrates will show a degree of sympathy in circumstances such as yours. Imho you’ll come out with a telling off, a couple of hundred quid fine and 6 points (as that’s the minimum they can dish out for that offence code).
Personally I wouldn’t worry too much about the IN12 and 6 points on your licence. I’ve had a few of them in my time and they’ve made no noticeable difference to my insurance premium and I’ve not had any trouble finding driving work with them either (although it has to be said that companies are keener on such things now than they used to be). Opting to take a ban instead is perhaps the worst thing you can do. Your insurance premium will go very far north and many of the mainstream insurers won’t even entertain you, nor will a lot of hauliers.
Points stay on your licence for 3 years and stay on your record for 4 years (correcting earlier info). You can send off for a replacement licence after 3 years from the date of the offence and your licence will come back with the offence removed. Note that high tier offences such as DD and DR stay with you for 11 years.
I got an IN10 many many years ago. I was driving my mum’s car and straightlined a roundabout which resulted in a minor collision. They called the cops, blah blah. Anyway when insurance was being sorted it turned out I wasn’t PROPERLY insured. I think it was due to the fact I was under 25 at the time and there was a very small print clause about this on the insurance. Anyway, we wrote a very nice polite letter to the court and pointed all this out in my mitigating circumstances. I still got points but only a £10 fine and I had to explain to empoyers etc. which they accepted. I know this is slightly different, but I suppose the whole point is that it wasn’t an intentional attempt to dodge any insurance.
Rob K:
Points stay on your licence for 3 years and stay on your record for 4 years (correcting earlier info). You can send off for a replacement licence after 3 years from the date of the offence and your licence will come back with the offence removed. Note that high tier offences such as DD and DR stay with you for 11 years.
Incorrect, the points last for 3 years but stay on the licence for 4 years. They can only be removed from the licence once the 4 years is up.
GBPub:
Rob K:
Points stay on your licence for 3 years and stay on your record for 4 years (correcting earlier info). You can send off for a replacement licence after 3 years from the date of the offence and your licence will come back with the offence removed. Note that high tier offences such as DD and DR stay with you for 11 years.Incorrect, the points last for 3 years but stay on the licence for 4 years. They can only be removed from the licence once the 4 years is up.
Sorry but you are wrong and the above is perhaps one of the biggest urban myths on the internet. Points will be removed from your licence after 3 years if you send your licence in.