Of course it’s punishment - you’re taking someones liberty away from them for £84 a week. I’ve worked all my life and you want me to sit in a room all week? Are you serious? For a start it means you can’t apply for any jobs - so you’re unemployed longer than you would have been if they did nothing.
As the recent government report shows (They’re too frightened to release it) all the punishment of benefit claimants is counter productive - it never gets them back into work and just wastes time and money enforcing it because you have to pay for rooms and people to sit watching them all day. Ends up costing ten times as much as just paying them their pittance.
No we don’t “all know” someone like that. We’ve all heard urban myths about people like that - I personally have never met one. Living on £84 a week isn’t fun.
The idea is that it’s a safety net for people - that way they don’t simply smash you over the head and take everything you’ve got. So it protects everyone.
JeffA:
Of course it’s punishment - you’re taking someones liberty away from them for £84 a week. I’ve worked all my life and you want me to sit in a room all week? Are you serious? For a start it means you can’t apply for any jobs - so you’re unemployed longer than you would have been if they did nothing.
As the recent government report shows (They’re too frightened to release it) all the punishment of benefit claimants is counter productive - it never gets them back into work and just wastes time and money enforcing it because you have to pay for rooms and people to sit watching them all day. Ends up costing ten times as much as just paying them their pittance.
No we don’t “all know” someone like that. We’ve all heard urban myths about people like that - I personally have never met one. Living on £84 a week isn’t fun.
I never see any litter pickers on road sides, I DO see far too much litter.,.especially in lay bys and on slip roads the length and breadth of the country.
I’m sure many pensioners would appreciate a hand with their gardens.
I’m sure many charity led animal refuge centres for one example would like a hand.
The general tidying up of towns and villages that never get done otherwise .
‘Keep Britain Tidy’'.? Dont make me ■■■■ laugh.
There is a plethora of jobs these lazy ■■■■ s could be doing ti earn their benefits.
I ain’t on about genuine short term dole guys who have just lost their jobs,.I’m talking about long term system players who will never work as long as they have holes in their arses, and never intend to, who get everything provided for them,.and their brood of kids,.solely used as a tool for more benefits, if you can’t afford to bring up your kids,.wait until you can…
They are usually seen in town centres in work time coming out the pub, walking with a stick without the hint of a limp or any physical impediment.
Are you really that naive to think they just ‘get by’ and ‘manage’ on the 84 quid you mention??
You say you do not know of anybody or have never met anybody like this?
I find that hard to believe.
Just instantly off the top of my head I can think of at least half a dozen well known scroungers in my area…but I suppose you will put that in the same category as young guys being the vast majority of economic migrants posing as asylum seekers…in your own words,.an ‘Urban Myth’,.
Aye maybe in Sociaist Cloud Cuckoo World it maybe is, but in Stark Realworld from what I SEE,.(not what I hear from some political party agenda being voiced, ) it certainly is NOT.
I know but the worlds not that nice is it rob. You give employers the chance to have a dole guy do your job what do you think will happen to your job? That’s right - you’ll be sacked and be out working for your dole the week after saying “I didn’t expect this”
It doesn’t work. People take the p!ss in all walks of life - you can’t punish everyone for the sins of the one. It’s the same as prison labour in the USA - companies that have prison labour can undercut every other construction company around. It’s a disaster for construction workers in those areas. They either get paid the same as a prisoner or find another job.
So that’s half a dozen you’ve seen out of a population of what? How big is your town? 100,000? So we punish everyone cos 6 out of 100,000 won’t work? It sounds good for a headline in the daily mail but in reality we’d all be working 48 hours a week for £84 by 2030.
Best solution would be universal income - give everyone £100 a week and then let them decide whether they want to work.
JeffA
I dont know where you were brought up but I was brought up on a council estate.Ive had these types of people living all around me,even next door to me.They are experts at playing the system.I had a friend who was given a flat in a high rise and naivley,I asked him if he gets disturbed in the morning with people going to work.He just laughed at me.He told me theres not many people working here.
I dont want to see you struggle on £84.I hope you are able to always have a job and if you are not able to work,I hope you get the benefits you need.All my comments I made are about those that are taking the ■■■■,as robroy said
Sploom:
JeffA
I dont know where you were brought up but I was brought up on a council estate.Ive had these types of people living all around me,even next door to me.They are experts at playing the system.I had a friend who was given a flat in a high rise and naivley,I asked him if he gets disturbed in the morning with people going to work.He just laughed at me.He told me theres not many people working here.
I dont want to see you struggle on £84.I hope you are able to always have a job and if you are not able to work,I hope you get the benefits you need.All my comments I made are about those that are taking the ■■■■,as robroy said
I know Sploom - but it doesn’t work like that does it. They didn’t introduce that cruel “test” where they were classing cancer victims as “fit for work” (Then they died the week after) by saying “It’s ok - we’re just going to introduce this for the 2 bad ones from the council estate - the rest of you will be fine”. It gets introduced for everyone - so that means I’ll be working for my dole just as much as the guy on the council estate.
£84 is by far the lowest benefits in Europe - that’s punishment enough.
JeffA:
I know but the worlds not that nice is it rob. You give employers the chance to have a dole guy do your job what do you think will happen to your job? That’s right - you’ll be sacked and be out working for your dole the week after saying “I didn’t expect this”
It doesn’t work. People take the p!ss in all walks of life - you can’t punish everyone for the sins of the one. It’s the same as prison labour in the USA - companies that have prison labour can undercut every other construction company around. It’s a disaster for construction workers in those areas. They either get paid the same as a prisoner or find another job.
So that’s half a dozen you’ve seen out of a population of what? How big is your town? 100,000? So we punish everyone cos 6 out of 100,000 won’t work? It sounds good for a headline in the daily mail but in reality we’d all be working 48 hours a week for £84 by 2030.
Best solution would be universal income - give everyone £100 a week and then let them decide whether they want to work.
That half dozen is who I know of, if I asked a mate and he asked his mate and so on and so on, and they all knew another half dozen or so each, I’m sure there is a high percentage of scroungers and freeloaders out there.
Ok but I ain’t saying give thenlm our jobs. or even vacant jobs at first, I’m talking community work, putting something back, doing their bit, in type of work that nobody does or can be arsed to do.
As well.as the other examples I listed…we live on an island, obviously surrounded by beach…dirty untidy beach.
That should keep them going for a bit.
It would get them off their habitual lazy arses, teach them a work ethic,.and if the work was crap enough it would urge them to try and get a proper job as a better alternative.
Dole is supposed to be a level of support until some work turns up, not an alternative way of life.
Stop me if Im wrong, (wouldnt be the first time) but are some saying that if an unemployed driver chooses not to work for minimum wage, he will be picking up litter for £85 a week?
If you are “working for benefits” then you are working for £85 a week aren`t you?
Thatll really encourage bad employers to up the wages wont it? (sarcasm)
I don`t like seeing lazy sods getting away with it.
I would rather the ill and unemployed get decent benefits rather than have my own sense of morality satiated.
To teach a “work ethic” they should be correctly rewarded, or else it is nothing more than punishment. All work should have a competitive wage, not a pittance. Ethics are taught by example, not by a dictatorial state forcing others to do hard work for less than basic wages.
Oh, and I am against benefit fraud of course. I think they should be pursued in a balanced way.
Balanced that is by having the whole department chasing them, by employing a few people to chase the remaining 99% of 1.1 billion furlough fraud. dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … vered.html
I think some people are being deliberately obtuse here. Nobody has suggested that people work as lorry drivers/factory workers/ farm hands etc for benefit money.
What has been proposed is that those on “the dole” do community work for 40 odd hours a week in order to receive their benefits. Working 40 hours to receive £90 or whatever might just focus the minds to actually get a “proper” job paying a proper wage, thus becoming tax payers and actually putting back some of what they have taken from the system for years.
Nobody is suggesting (before you pipe up) that the disabled and infirm should work for their benefits.
the maoster:
I think some people are being deliberately obtuse here. Nobody has suggested that people work as lorry drivers/factory workers/ farm hands etc for benefit money.
So which part of the state decides who are “the deserving poor” and the “undeserving poor”?
Why only pay £90 for 40hrs?
This isnt North Korea with forced labour is it? Let em starve if they don`t conform to your norms?
the maoster:
I think some people are being deliberately obtuse here. Nobody has suggested that people work as lorry drivers/factory workers/ farm hands etc for benefit money.
What has been proposed is that those on “the dole” do community work for 40 odd hours a week in order to receive their benefits. Working 40 hours to receive £90 or whatever might just focus the minds to actually get a “proper” job paying a proper wage, thus becoming tax payers and actually putting back some of what they have taken from the system for years.
Nobody is suggesting (before you pipe up) that the disabled and infirm should work for their benefits.
What??
Frangers being ‘‘deliberately obtuse’’?..noooo surely not.
Looks like I explained my pov and opinion with clarity after all then, after reading your correct interpretation.
In the meantime…‘‘We’ll keep the Red Flag flying’.’
JeffA:
I know but the worlds not that nice is it rob. You give employers the chance to have a dole guy do your job what do you think will happen to your job? That’s right - you’ll be sacked and be out working for your dole the week after saying “I didn’t expect this”
It doesn’t work. People take the p!ss in all walks of life - you can’t punish everyone for the sins of the one. It’s the same as prison labour in the USA - companies that have prison labour can undercut every other construction company around. It’s a disaster for construction workers in those areas. They either get paid the same as a prisoner or find another job.
So that’s half a dozen you’ve seen out of a population of what? How big is your town? 100,000? So we punish everyone cos 6 out of 100,000 won’t work? It sounds good for a headline in the daily mail but in reality we’d all be working 48 hours a week for £84 by 2030.
Best solution would be universal income - give everyone £100 a week and then let them decide whether they want to work.
That half dozen is who I know of, if I asked a mate and he asked his mate and so on and so on, and they all knew another half dozen or so each, I’m sure there is a high percentage of scroungers and freeloaders out there.
Ok but I ain’t saying give thenlm our jobs. or even vacant jobs at first, I’m talking community work, putting something back, doing their bit, in type of work that nobody does or can be arsed to do.
As well.as the other examples I listed…we live on an island, obviously surrounded by beach…dirty untidy beach.
That should keep them going for a bit.
It would get them off their habitual lazy arses, teach them a work ethic,.and if the work was crap enough it would urge them to try and get a proper job as a better alternative.
Dole is supposed to be a level of support until some work turns up, not an alternative way of life.
Not according to the research - benefit fraud is very small 2 or 3%.
Yeah but if it can be classed as work should be paid at the going rate. Making them tidy a beach up means the council sacks their litter picking people.
the maoster:
I think some people are being deliberately obtuse here. Nobody has suggested that people work as lorry drivers/factory workers/ farm hands etc for benefit money.
What has been proposed is that those on “the dole” do community work for 40 odd hours a week in order to receive their benefits. Working 40 hours to receive £90 or whatever might just focus the minds to actually get a “proper” job paying a proper wage, thus becoming tax payers and actually putting back some of what they have taken from the system for years.
Nobody is suggesting (before you pipe up) that the disabled and infirm should work for their benefits.
Doing community work still puts people out of their jobs tho.
Trust me - £83 a week is all you need to focus your mind.
@Jeff.
No not ‘everybody’… I thought I made that clear …read my post referencing the ■■■■ orifce analogy.
NEVER seen or known of any official workers cleaning up the beach,.and I’ve lived on the coast for most of my life.
Most beaches are filthy litter laden ■■■■ holes in this country.
As for official stats,.and research,?..
You obviously have not read my thoughts and opinions on them,.when Franglais continuosly bombards me with them to back up his arguments.
robroy: @Jeff.
No not ‘everybody’… I thought I made that clear …read my post referencing the ■■■■ orifce analogy.
NEVER seen or known of any official workers cleaning up the beach,.and I’ve lived on the coast for most of my life.
Most beaches are filthy litter laden [zb] holes in this country.
As for official stats,.and research,?..
You obviously have not read my thoughts and opinions on them,.when Franglais continuosly bombards me with them to back up his arguments.
So if its not everybody why are you so keen on making me pick up dog mess 40 hours a week for £83? Ive worked for 30 years but have spent time on the dole. Why should I be punished?
Are you paying their travel expenses? Or are they going to end up working for £50 a week after traveling to the seaside every day?
Work is beneificial for us anyway.It keeps you fit,gives you a purpose.Anytime I havent been working,its alright for the first few days,then I start eating too much,drinking too much.Even if its cleaning up mess,somebody has to do this,so long as its hygenic and you have appopriate protection.
As for the prisoners,hard labour would be beneficial to them too.It would act as a deterrent and when they are released,it wouldnt be a shock to the system when you go to work than if you spent all day on playstations like the prisoners do now
But it drives wages through the floor. Thats why prison labour has put so many construction workers out of a job in the usa.
How would you feel if they gave your job to someone on the dole? Or if they said they can get a prisoner to do it for £50 a week so you will have to work for £50 a week too?
I dont need work to make me fit or give me a purpose at all - I can do that myself
Sploom:
Work is beneificial for us anyway.It keeps you fit,gives you a purpose.Anytime I havent been working,its alright for the first few days,then I start eating too much,drinking too much.Even if its cleaning up mess,somebody has to do this,so long as its hygenic and you have appopriate protection.
As for the prisoners,hard labour would be beneficial to them too.It would act as a deterrent and when they are released,it wouldnt be a shock to the system when you go to work than if you spent all day on playstations like the prisoners do now
Food deliveries are also necessary, and a benefit to society.
We should get the unemployed to drive trucks and vans on food deliveries. Save the OAPs money on deliveries, and reduce the cost of food for ALL citizens.
robroy: @Jeff.
No not ‘everybody’… I thought I made that clear …read my post referencing the ■■■■ orifce analogy.
NEVER seen or known of any official workers cleaning up the beach,.and I’ve lived on the coast for most of my life.
Most beaches are filthy litter laden [zb] holes in this country.
As for official stats,.and research,?..
You obviously have not read my thoughts and opinions on them,.when Franglais continuosly bombards me with them to back up his arguments.
So if its not everybody why are you so keen on making me pick up dog mess 40 hours a week for £83? Ive worked for 30 years but have spent time on the dole. Why should I be punished?
Are you paying their travel expenses? Or are they going to end up working for £50 a week after traveling to the seaside every day?
Nah you’re winding me up right?
I obviously need to reiterate my point.
I was referring to long term, habitual, virtually full time occupational dole ies…not guys temporarily out of a job (as I have repeatedly said from the start.)
Remember??..the 6 I know,.the six my mate knows,the six his mate knows, the six…you know the rest.
Oh Aye and Sploomys mate in his local boozer.
Oh yeh,.the beach was just one example, and another thing, the p… …tell ya what gan back to my posts and have a re. read.
I know but the tories arnt going to say “you will only pick up dog mess with your bare hands after 25 years of laying on the couch flicking yourself off” are they? They will make everyone do it - like how they had cancer victims bending over and jumping up and down showing they were “fit for work” the day before they dropped dead.
