Why do remain keep up the bs about individual trade agreements? Surely if all these countries are in the eu, it will be one agreement. They will say any old crap to frighten people. Last time I checked, there were more deep sea containers doing the rounds than short sea freight. We do more trade away from the eu than within. And more comes in than goes out with the eu, if the short sea trailers and boxes in purfleet and tilbury are anything to go by
Bluey Circles:
ROG:
This is the way I see it with three main issues1 laws/legislation control
2 immigration/border control
3 economics/financial stability ( at least for the foreseeable future )REMAIN = 3
LEAVE = 1 + 2Now its up to folk as to where their priority lies
Seems to me that the media are only commenting on number 3
1/ to continue trading within the EU they will still require us to adopt many of their silly rules and regulations, so there will be little change there.
Who says we have to continue trading on their terms at all? We’ll carve out our own new rules on a “take it or leave it” basis. We’re still a maritime nation, and can set up sea trade routes with nations further afield - a lot easier than the EU can, what with their bickering among themselves over every small detail on any new trade treaty…2/ Immigration will be worse, France will stop allowing us to place control on their side of the channel, it will be to their benifit for as many to make it accross to the UK, and we will have massive migrant camps around Dover and we will be stuck with them.
If any illegal immigrant were to hang around in a camp on THIS side of the channel - we’d be free to round them all up, and detail them. Leaving the EU gives us other “outs” such as leaving the Strasbourg HRC as well. Corbyn would insist upon an election for such a huge change - but even if he gets it, he’d lose it!3/Ecconomics always works best in a big market place, we would undoubtably be poorer by leaving.
It works best for the winners in a big market place. If you’re on the losing side of a trade - you lose even more when the market is that much bigger. “Free Trade” should be just that - “free” to buy and sell what you want, unhampered by daft rules, tariffs, and rubber-stamp requirements for everything and anything in between… Britain currently loses out of it’s aggregate trade with the EU. It profits from it’s trade routes with the rest of the world though. Rich people will tell you that “TO become rich, do what we do a lot more often, and do less of what poor people do all the time as well.”The only benifit I see in leaving is we can stick two fingers up to the EU for a few days until the reality kicks in.
If anything, this is something the floating voter (that are still left) is afraid to do… Oooh won’t they declare war/trade sanction/heavily fine/blockade/boot us out of NATO if we dare try to break away?
I agree with you Winseer. Our young people have grown up in a world of 2 car families, maybe a foreign holiday once a year, and a general feeling of middle class apathy.
Any mention of this illusion of success being threatened, makes them recoil into their shells.
Freedom is something that many lives have been sacrificed for, yet we as a society seem to forget that far too easily.
war1974:
I don’t get the argument about security and our borders and immigration - we are an island its so easy to control - it will also create jobs if we do what say Egypt do and charge an entry fee.
So what are we going to do when a lorry arrives in Dover with 50 migrants hiding in the back ? and with no control on the French side that scenario will become very common. We can’t deport them as that would flout United Nations law.
ChronosUK:
“The Economy™” is the only thing any of them seem to concentrate on. Let’s not forget, for those of us with mortgages, a strong economy means more gouging in interest and growth can quite literally be translated into inflation. Most of us aren’t bankers, property magnates or investors. Many of us don’t even have savings so less than a ■■■■■ emission could be given about the sodding economy as it is presented, especially since “growth” very rarely translates into pay rises for the average working person. More to the point, perpetual growth is, IMHO, impossible and the expectation is probably rather dangerous because eventually we’ll run out of resources and come crashing down in a spectacular heap.Where it does impact most of us is jobs. 3 million jobs may be directly or indirectly linked to European trade, sure enough. That does not mean they’re going to evaporate the second we vote out, nor is it a sure thing those products and services will not be so important that the recipients can’t simply “go elsewhere.” Oh, and challenging our road tariff for foreign vehicles, while we’re on the subject of UK jobs, is just a bit cheeky while it costs UK firms about €100 to cross France or Germany, don’t you think?
The one and only thing that worries me right now is Ms May. I suspect she, or more likely whichever Sir Humphrey was advising the last three or four HomeSecs regardless of rosette colour, read 1984 and thought “what a good idea!” Even contemplating repealing the Human Rights Act is very telling: A right is something that cannot be taken away. If it can be, it’s more correctly called a privilege but the Human Privileges Act doesn’t sound quite as noble, does it?
That said, it looks like she’s found a way whether we’re in or out in June - she’s pushing for remain but an opt-out of the ECtHR - so it’s a bit of a moot point. Right now I’m firmly in the “Goodbye, you undemocratic despots” camp. It’s going to take something a little more tangible than someone else’s bank balance to make me change my mind.
We need to repeal the HRC with a BCPC (Human Rights charter changed to a British Citizen’s Privilege Charter)
As we’re got all these people over here to stay already - rather than make any attempt to kick them out again (too late for that) - why not actually force them to integrate - or no rights get extended to them…? It’s not ‘ghettoization’ like the scaremongers would argue, but rather "You’re here, now get a job and pay some taxes - then you can have some benefits and free NHS… Want to drop out of society? Want to be in the black economy? Want to avoid integration no matter what? - You get nowt from your new host state then. Be a tramp if that’s what you want. Vagrancy is illegal in America, so there won’t be much condemnation of Britain should we take a hard line with immigrants who want to merely get here and bum out…
eagerbeaver:
I agree with you Winseer. Our young people have grown up in a world of 2 car families, maybe a foreign holiday once a year, and a general feeling of middle class apathy.Any mention of this illusion of success being threatened, makes them recoil into their shells.
Freedom is something that many lives have been sacrificed for, yet we as a society seem to forget that far too easily.
I’m thinking that it is this very group of people “Happy with the status quo” that the rest of us already having had 8 years of austerity - have to get past if we’re really gonna make this Brexit the biggest Comeback story since Lazarus… The media currently continues to lie to us about where we’re really at here: The betting suggests 63% “Remain” to 37% “Leave”. That’s nearly a 2:1 majority AGAINST us FFS.
They happily falsify the polling status as being “neck and neck” though - just like they did with Milliband vs Cameron… Milliband was never a danger to Cameron remaining leader of the biggest party… But Cameron wanted his majority rather than having his feet held to the fire by Farage posing as Churchill in Coalition. He got his Majority, and UKIP were roasted on Election night. - Cameron had pulled a masterstroke of politics by successfully motivating the “Hmm Ahhh DOhhh” people that don’t normally even vote - to get out there “Lest Milliband snapping at my heels goes into coalition with Sturgeon!”
Blimus… How these sassanach youngsters seem to hate the Scots! 
Cameron got it right though, and “fear” was the decisive winner in the 2015 general election.
My reference to “Farage as Churchill” comes from the hilarious Taiwan video shown in the run-up to our 2015 general election… Explaining how British politics works to the Oriental world! 
…Anyway. Enough of this ■■■■■■■■ for one day. I’m knackered, and I’m off to bed. More a case of needing MYkip rather than Ukip on this occasion. 
I do fear this referendum will be swung by the idiotic younger generation. They wander around pandering to the left with their air of self entitlement. Makes you sick to think such misinformed fools can ruin it for everyone else
Good post Jay.
Winseer:
We need to repeal the HRC with a BCPC (Human Rights charter changed to a British Citizen’s Privilege Charter)As we’re got all these people over here to stay already - rather than make any attempt to kick them out again (too late for that) - why not actually force them to integrate - or no rights get extended to them…? It’s not ‘ghettoization’ like the scaremongers would argue, but rather "You’re here, now get a job and pay some taxes - then you can have some benefits and free NHS… Want to drop out of society? Want to be in the black economy? Want to avoid integration no matter what? - You get nowt from your new host state then. Be a tramp if that’s what you want. Vagrancy is illegal in America, so there won’t be much condemnation of Britain should we take a hard line with immigrants who want to merely get here and bum out…
Given that they’re currently removing benefits from many of our more vulnerable native Britons (while creating contracts for the likes of ATOS and Crapita to make that happen, which is why I suspect they’re spending more on disabilities right now) how can you possibly think that immigrants without the right paperwork will have an easier time of it? They’ll end up in some ruddy awful immigration staging facility, yet again with their short, traumatised lives on hold, probably run by another jobs-for-the-boys outfit.
What I do take exception to is already affluent countries trying to keep Britain down, stifling disruptive technology, rewarding innovation with reams of red tape, adopting a “do as I say, not as I do” stance on everything and generally making sure that the little island off the north west coast of the continent which had the temerity to reject the disastrous Euro knows its place.
Not only am I sick of them lying to me all the time claiming such and such will or won’t happen, when it is plainly rubbish, but having poncy boy cameron TELLING me what I must do has really got up my nose. He can ■■■■ off for a start.
Bluey Circles:
war1974:
I don’t get the argument about security and our borders and immigration - we are an island its so easy to control - it will also create jobs if we do what say Egypt do and charge an entry fee.So what are we going to do when a lorry arrives in Dover with 50 migrants hiding in the back ? and with no control on the French side that scenario will become very common. We can’t deport them as that would flout United Nations law.
If we ceased being in the EU and changed some of the hideous clearly not fit for purpose human rights laws that can prevent them being deported back to France, personally i don’t think is unreasonable at all to deport them back to France or Belgium both are Safe countries , as are turkey and Greece , if we went back to checking on our side ,they would have to buy some land nearby as a holding area so EVERY Lorry could be checked, infact if the checks where done in the uk they would probably find more of the ■■■■■■■, as those tossers who check lorries @ calais don’t do a proper job anyway
The problem with the whole In/out debate and getting people to decide is exactly the same as in the Scottish independence vote.
The out party has to convince everyone it will be better and supply proof. They need to meticulously go through everything and try to make the strongest case to support them.
The IN party however, dont need to convince anyone it is better to stay. All they need to do is throw out scare stories about job losses etc to frighten people to vote with a “better the devil you know” mind set.
I detest Alex salmond but I always said he was on to a loser with the yes/no Scottish vote due to Cameron and his scare stories (which, despite BWD trying to tell us otherwise, is what happened) and its going to be the same story here im afraid.
Up till about August last year I was for voting to stay in the EU till I looked into things further and found out just how much the UK is being dictated to (I always knew it but not at the level it happened at) and some of the things forced on us through the back door so now im pretty sure im voting for leaving but there are too many people who will swallow the scaremongering about the Mad Max style future outwith the EU that the in crowd are pedalling and vote to stay.
ROG:
This is the way I see it with three main issues1 laws/legislation control
2 immigration/border control
3 economics/financial stability ( at least for the foreseeable future )REMAIN = 3
LEAVE = 1 + 2Now its up to folk as to where their priority lies
Seems to me that the media are only commenting on number 3
The fact that we went from trade surplus into trade deficit with the EEC/EU countries from the time we joined.Then followed by an open door to economic immigration from Eastern Europe and an ever increasing net contribution burden for the privilege busts the myth of 3. 
Bluey Circles:
ROG:
This is the way I see it with three main issues1 laws/legislation control
2 immigration/border control
3 economics/financial stability ( at least for the foreseeable future )REMAIN = 3
LEAVE = 1 + 2Now its up to folk as to where their priority lies
Seems to me that the media are only commenting on number 3
1/ to continue trading within the EU they will still require us to adopt many of their silly rules and regulations, so there will be little change there.
2/ Immigration will be worse, France will stop allowing us to place control on their side of the channel, it will be to their benifit for as many to make it accross to the UK, and we will have massive migrant camps around Dover and we will be stuck with them.
3/Ecconomics always works best in a big market place, we would undoubtably be poorer by leaving.The only benifit I see in leaving is we can stick two fingers up to the EU for a few days until the reality kicks in.
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The only way they’ll get us to ‘adopt’ their silly rules is if we’re too weak to retaliate in the face of the threat of trade sanctions.Bearing in mind that ‘sanctions’ in this case would mean ‘them’ hitting a net ‘importer’ of their products.
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Immigration won’t be worse because even if France lets them all across the channel we’re no longer lumbered with the EU human rights legislation which stops us deporting them back to their place of origin.( Don’t say we can’t do that because they won’t tell us where they come from ).
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If economics supposedly only works best in the EU how do you explain going from trade surplus to trade deficit with the EEC/EU effectively over night from the time we joined and since.In addition to massive net contributions for the privilege which need to be subtracted from the EU exports trade balance figure.
So there you have it the in campaign for people who don’t understand basic maths and pro immigration bleeding heart socialists.
What bugs me is that they claim that the NHS would be in a worse state than it’s in now if it wasn’t for flip flops Cheap EE workers , what a crock of ■■■■! Maybe if the NHS paid and offered better working conditions all those doctors and nurses who get their qualifications here would stay and work here then, we DO NOT need imported workers on the scale we have seen in recent years, that ■■■■ head owner of that haulage company featured in the tonight program, is wrong about the driver shortage, and wrong that we need migrant drivers, and if we do have less native drivers it’s in part down to the dictatorship EU with all their bs , DCPC, WTD, ect POA never used it and never will , the DCPC is nothing more than a tax on our job, there is nothing remotely beneficial gained from it, the only people to benefit are the “training” providers and this the thieving government ( i use the word training loosely) as IMO DCPC isn’t training ,
eagerbeaver:
I agree with you Winseer. Our young people have grown up in a world of 2 car families, maybe a foreign holiday once a year, and a general feeling of middle class apathy.Any mention of this illusion of success being threatened, makes them recoil into their shells.
Maybe in the case of Cameron’s constituency.But many others have grown up in a world of British jobs for German and also now East European workers with,as a result,unlike in 1972,no decent paying jobs in our wrecked industrial base to go to when they leave school.
Bluey Circles:
ROG:
This is the way I see it with three main issues1 laws/legislation control
2 immigration/border control
3 economics/financial stability ( at least for the foreseeable future )REMAIN = 3
LEAVE = 1 + 2Now its up to folk as to where their priority lies
Seems to me that the media are only commenting on number 3
1/ to continue trading within the EU they will still require us to adopt many of their silly rules and regulations, so there will be little change there.
2/ Immigration will be worse, France will stop allowing us to place control on their side of the channel, it will be to their benifit for as many to make it accross to the UK, and we will have massive migrant camps around Dover and we will be stuck with them.
3/Ecconomics always works best in a big market place, we would undoubtably be poorer by leaving.The only benifit I see in leaving is we can stick two fingers up to the EU for a few days until the reality kicks in.
Nail. On. Head.
Winseer:
The betting suggests 63% “Remain” to 37% “Leave”. That’s nearly a 2:1 majority AGAINST us FFS.
To be fair the odds for out at less than 3/1 when I last checked isn’t exactly the odds of a no hoper horse.While the odds for in might have more to do with discouraging the idea of putting loads of money on out and enough on in to get the stake money on out back if in wins.While doing it in a way which doesn’t upset the establishment.
DonutUK:
Nail. On. Head.
Feel free to explain as to how we’ll be supposedly ‘undoubtedly poorer’,by leaving a scam which forces us to give up sovereignty to federal rule and to pay a fortune in net contributions which could be better spent at home,all for the privilege of being a net importer of EU products.