If this story doesnt cause massive protests nothing will

[paul_b]

Coffeeholic:
Well speaking as a working driver and someone who doesn’t live in Spain do you really think, whether the RFL is abolished for trucks or not, that any new system will work out to the same or less than UK hauliers currently pay. If they go for a vignette style time based system then it may not be too much more, provided the RFL is abolished and I wouldn’t be holding my breath about that. But if they go for a distance based system, which from things I have read is the preferred option and they have been keeping a close eye on the German way of doing it, it is going to cost a hell of a lot more. No distance based road user charge is going to work out to as little as £25 a week, it’s not even likely to be £25 a day. I would not be at all surprised if Toll Collect who operate the German system end up running whatever is introduced here.

so whats the answer? theres been a massive increase in foreign wagons on our roads and because we now produce so little that number can only increase, so do we carry on as we are, leaving the uk hauliers at such a dissadvantage that many will just dissapear along with thousands of jobs or do we need a new system to give those haulage firms at least an outside chance of survival?
of coarse we could just abide to the eu rules that we like and ignore the rest like other member states have done but that dosn’t seem to the brittish way but is it really any great suprise that a tory government thats been in power less than three weeks is looking to increase taxes on the haulage industry?
i hate to say i told you so, but i did.

[vascoingles]

Wheel Nut:
Unfortunately the posters who doubt what has been said have also made several wrong accusations.

Carryfast thinks we pay “nearly 20% in VAT” in the UK. Almost 20% is like saying we actually paid just over 15%.

Here is a recent table of the EU members which I have marked in red the ones who are higher than our current rate of 17.5%

The European Union-

Members of the EU are obliged by European Law to be a part of the European Union Value Added Tax Area. A minimum of 15% VAT must be charged, with the maximum being 25%. Some countries have reduced VAT rates on certain types of goods and services. Unless otherwise stated the currency is the euro.

Austria has a standard VAT rate of 20%, and reduced rates of 12% & 10%. The tax is called USt. (Umsatzsteuer)

Belgium has a standard rate of 21% and reduced rates of 12% & 6%. There are three taxes which can be classified as VAT — BTW, TVA and MWSt. slight mistake here, there are not 3 taxes but just one tax with 3 different names due to Belguim being a 3 language state

Bulgaria has a standard VAT rate of 20%, with reduced rates of 0% & 7%. The currency of this country is the Bulgarian lev, which consists of 100 Stotinka to the Lev.

Cyprus has a standard VAT rare of 15% & a reduced rate of 5%.

Czech Republic has a standard VAT rate of 19% & a reduced rate of 9%. The tax is called DPH and the local currency is the Czech Koruna which 100 Haler to the Koruna.

Denmark has a single VAT rate of 25%. The tax is called moms and the local currency is the Danish krone which consists of 100 Ore to the krone.

Estonia charges a standard VAT rate of 18% & a reduced rate of 9%. The tax is called “km” and the local currency is the Estonian Kroon which consists of 100 sent to the kroon.

Finland has a standard VAT rate of 22% plus 2 reduced rates of 17% and 8%. The taxes are called ALV and Moms.

France has a standard VAT rate of 19.9% & reduced rates of 5.5% and 2.1%. The tax is called TVA.

Germany has a standard rate of VAT which stands at 19% & a reduced rate of 7%. The taxes are called MwSt. and US.

Greece has a standard rate of VAT of 19%, with reduced rates of 9% & 4.5% — throughout the Greek Islands this amount is reduced by 30% to 13%, 6% & 3%.

Hungary has a standard VAT rate of 20% & a reduced rate of 5%. The tax is called AFA and the local currency is the Hungarian Forint (Ft), which has 100 Filler to 1 Forint.

Ireland has a standard VAT rate of 21.5%, with reduced rates of 13.5%, 4.8% or 0%. The tax is known as CBL or VAT.

Italy has a standard rate of 20%, with reduced rates of 10%, 6% or 4%. The tax is called IVA.

Latvia has a standard rate of 21% and a reduced rate of 10%. The tax is called PVN and the local currency is the Latvian Lats (Ls) which has 100 Santims to the Lats.

Lithuania has a standard VAT rate of 19%, with reduced rates of 9% or 5%. The tax is called PVM and the local currency is the Lithuanian Litas (Lt) which has 100 Centas to the Litas.

Luxembourg has a standard VAT rate of 15%, with reduced rates of 12%, 9%, 6%, 3%. As in France, the tax is called TVA.

Malta, has a standard VAT rate of 18% & a reduced rate of 5%.

The Netherlands has a standard rate of 19%, with reduced rates of 6% & 0%. The tax is called BTW.

Poland has a standard rate of 22%, with reduced rates of 7%, 3% & 0%. The tax is called PTU and the local currency is the Polish Zloty (zl) which has 100 Grosz to the Zloty.

Portugal has a standard VAT rate 20%, and reduced rates of 12% and 5%. The tax is called IVA.

Romania has a standard VAT rate of 19% & a reduced rate of 9%. The tax is called TVA and the local currency is the Romanian leu (L), with 100 Ban to the Leu.

Slovakia has a standard VAT rate of 19% & a reduced rate of 10%. The tax is called DPH.

Slovenia has a standard rate of 20% & a reduced rate of 8.5%. The tax is called DDV.

Spain has a standard VAT rate of 16%, with reduced rates of 7% and 4%. The tax is called IVA. Will be going up next month by 2%

Sweden has standard VAT of 25%, with reduced rates of 12% and 6%. The tax is called Moms and the local currency is the Swedish krona with 100 Ore to the Krone.

The United Kingdom has a standard VAT rate of 17.5%, with reduced rates of 5% and 0%.

There you go I helped you again, the bits in blue are the lowest VAT rates in Europe

good patient bit of research which just goes to prove that the UK does not always get the highest taxes in Europe

[coffeeholic]

paul b:

Coffeeholic:
Well speaking as a working driver and someone who doesn’t live in Spain do you really think, whether the RFL is abolished for trucks or not, that any new system will work out to the same or less than UK hauliers currently pay. If they go for a vignette style time based system then it may not be too much more, provided the RFL is abolished and I wouldn’t be holding my breath about that. But if they go for a distance based system, which from things I have read is the preferred option and they have been keeping a close eye on the German way of doing it, it is going to cost a hell of a lot more. No distance based road user charge is going to work out to as little as £25 a week, it’s not even likely to be £25 a day. I would not be at all surprised if Toll Collect who operate the German system end up running whatever is introduced here.

so whats the answer?

Fuel duty rebates for essential users would have more effect on levelling the playing field for UK hauliers than introducing a road user charge

paul b:
theres been a massive increase in foreign wagons on our roads and because we now produce so little that number can only increase, so do we carry on as we are, leaving the uk hauliers at such a dissadvantage that many will just dissapear along with thousands of jobs or do we need a new system to give those haulage firms at least an outside chance of survival?

We need a new system but a road user charge will just increase the speed at which UK hauliers disappear while wages are frozen or lowered. This thread is about a road user charge and that will do nothing to help UK hauliers, in fact it will do the opposite.

paul b:
is it really any great suprise that a tory government thats been in power less than three weeks is looking to increase taxes on the haulage industry?

Not to me and it’s why I have long been pointing out the pitfalls of voting and campaigning for a tax on foreign trucks. Sounds great when it is discussed in truck stops and RDC waiting rooms, well it does if you can hear the discussion above the sound of gunshots to the foot area.

paul b:
i hate to say i told you so, but i did.

I don’t recall you telling me or warning me about anything but if you say so?

[wheel_nut]

Vascoingles:

Wheel Nut:
Unfortunately the posters who doubt what has been said have also made several wrong accusations.

Carryfast thinks we pay “nearly 20% in VAT” in the UK. Almost 20% is like saying we actually paid just over 15%.

Here is a recent table of the EU members which I have marked in red the ones who are higher than our current rate of 17.5%

The European Union-

Members of the EU are obliged by European Law to be a part of the European Union Value Added Tax Area. A minimum of 15% VAT must be charged, with the maximum being 25%. Some countries have reduced VAT rates on certain types of goods and services. Unless otherwise stated the currency is the euro.

Belgium has a standard rate of 21% and reduced rates of 12% & 6%. There are three taxes which can be classified as VAT — BTW, TVA and MWSt. slight mistake here, there are not 3 taxes but just one tax with 3 different names due to Belguim being a 3 language state

There you go I helped you again, the bits in blue are the lowest VAT rates in Europe

good patient bit of research which just goes to prove that the UK does not always get the highest taxes in Europe

slight mistake here, there are not 3 taxes but just one tax with 3 different names due to Belguim being a 3 language state Oops. Sorry. I shall make sure that I am severely beaten with a soggy Witloof

[carryfast]

Wheel Nut:
Unfortunately the posters who doubt what has been said have also made several wrong accusations.

Carryfast thinks we pay “nearly 20% in VAT” in the UK. Almost 20% is like saying we actually paid just over 15%.

Here is a recent table of the EU members which I have marked in red the ones who are higher than our current rate of 17.5%

The European Union-

Members of the EU are obliged by European Law to be a part of the European Union Value Added Tax Area. A minimum of 15% VAT must be charged, with the maximum being 25%. Some countries have reduced VAT rates on certain types of goods and services. Unless otherwise stated the currency is the euro.

Austria has a standard VAT rate of 20%, and reduced rates of 12% & 10%. The tax is called USt. (Umsatzsteuer)

Belgium has a standard rate of 21% and reduced rates of 12% & 6%. There are three taxes which can be classified as VAT — BTW, TVA and MWSt.

Bulgaria has a standard VAT rate of 20%, with reduced rates of 0% & 7%. The currency of this country is the Bulgarian lev, which consists of 100 Stotinka to the Lev.

Cyprus has a standard VAT rare of 15% & a reduced rate of 5%.

Czech Republic has a standard VAT rate of 19% & a reduced rate of 9%. The tax is called DPH and the local currency is the Czech Koruna which 100 Haler to the Koruna.

Denmark has a single VAT rate of 25%. The tax is called moms and the local currency is the Danish krone which consists of 100 Ore to the krone.

Estonia charges a standard VAT rate of 18% & a reduced rate of 9%. The tax is called “km” and the local currency is the Estonian Kroon which consists of 100 sent to the kroon.

Finland has a standard VAT rate of 22% plus 2 reduced rates of 17% and 8%. The taxes are called ALV and Moms.

France has a standard VAT rate of 19.9% & reduced rates of 5.5% and 2.1%. The tax is called TVA.

Germany has a standard rate of VAT which stands at 19% & a reduced rate of 7%. The taxes are called MwSt. and US.

Greece has a standard rate of VAT of 19%, with reduced rates of 9% & 4.5% — throughout the Greek Islands this amount is reduced by 30% to 13%, 6% & 3%.

Hungary has a standard VAT rate of 20% & a reduced rate of 5%. The tax is called AFA and the local currency is the Hungarian Forint (Ft), which has 100 Filler to 1 Forint.

Ireland has a standard VAT rate of 21.5%, with reduced rates of 13.5%, 4.8% or 0%. The tax is known as CBL or VAT.

Italy has a standard rate of 20%, with reduced rates of 10%, 6% or 4%. The tax is called IVA.

Latvia has a standard rate of 21% and a reduced rate of 10%. The tax is called PVN and the local currency is the Latvian Lats (Ls) which has 100 Santims to the Lats.

Lithuania has a standard VAT rate of 19%, with reduced rates of 9% or 5%. The tax is called PVM and the local currency is the Lithuanian Litas (Lt) which has 100 Centas to the Litas.

Luxembourg has a standard VAT rate of 15%, with reduced rates of 12%, 9%, 6%, 3%. As in France, the tax is called TVA.

Malta, has a standard VAT rate of 18% & a reduced rate of 5%.

The Netherlands has a standard rate of 19%, with reduced rates of 6% & 0%. The tax is called BTW.

Poland has a standard rate of 22%, with reduced rates of 7%, 3% & 0%. The tax is called PTU and the local currency is the Polish Zloty (zl) which has 100 Grosz to the Zloty.

Portugal has a standard VAT rate 20%, and reduced rates of 12% and 5%. The tax is called IVA.

Romania has a standard VAT rate of 19% & a reduced rate of 9%. The tax is called TVA and the local currency is the Romanian leu (L), with 100 Ban to the Leu.

Slovakia has a standard VAT rate of 19% & a reduced rate of 10%. The tax is called DPH.

Slovenia has a standard rate of 20% & a reduced rate of 8.5%. The tax is called DDV.

Spain has a standard VAT rate of 16%, with reduced rates of 7% and 4%. The tax is called IVA.

Sweden has standard VAT of 25%, with reduced rates of 12% and 6%. The tax is called Moms and the local currency is the Swedish krona with 100 Ore to the Krone.

The United Kingdom has a standard VAT rate of 17.5%, with reduced rates of 5% and 0%.

There you go I helped you again, the bits in blue are the lowest VAT rates in Europe

But we’d be a lot better off if we had the type of ‘reduced’ VAT rates that Luxembourg has .It does’nt take a genius to realise that the ‘reduced’ VAT rate get out does’nt benefit us in the way that it benefits many other member states probably because our government has always been happy to tax the British economy into oblivion while other states have a laugh at our expense.So why has it always been much cheaper to fill up in Luxembourg if it is’nt a tax difference allowed under EU law ? and 17.5% on British prices is much more than the 22% on the Polish cost of living that’s even before all the ‘reduced’ rates are taken into account.Before we went into the common market we were paying a standard rate of 8% purchase tax and there were more British trucks running into Europe on TIR work,as it was then,than there are now because we were a more competitive less taxed economy. So that’s one all between Heath and Scargill when it comes to the greatest British zb ups.

[vascoingles]

Carryfast:
Before we went into the common market we were paying a standard rate of 8% purchase tax and there were more British trucks running into Europe on TIR work

One of the big reasons that there are now less UK reg trucks on the continent is not so much due to taxes but more to the fact that the UK haulage industry as a whole missed the boat when borders came down and French, German, Dutch companies etc etc rushed to set up depots in other countries and take foreign companies over, British companies were of the opinion that this was not necessary thus they got left behind and at a great disadvantage, slowly but surely at least Wincanton appears to have woken up and got a foothold in Germany but this should have happened years ago when British transport was still strong.

[carryfast]

Vascoingles:

Carryfast:
Before we went into the common market we were paying a standard rate of 8% purchase tax and there were more British trucks running into Europe on TIR work

One of the big reasons that there are now less UK reg trucks on the continent is not so much due to taxes but more to the fact that the UK haulage industry as a whole missed the boat when borders came down and French, German, Dutch companies etc etc rushed to set up depots in other countries and take foreign companies over, British companies were of the opinion that this was not necessary thus they got left behind and at a great disadvantage, slowly but surely at least Wincanton appears to have woken up and got a foothold in Germany but this should have happened years ago when British transport was still strong.

But when the Brits set up depots in other states it does’nt/would’nt translate into more jobs here.Whichever way you look at it they’ll usually deliver continental loads from their end and collect their return loads rather than British drivers and trucks delivering our exports and collecting our imports.I’d still say that there were far more opportunities for British based drivers using British trucks before,and only for a relatively short time after,we entered the Common Market/EEC/EU.

[carryfast]

Vascoingles:

Carryfast:
Before we went into the common market we were paying a standard rate of 8% purchase tax and there were more British trucks running into Europe on TIR work

One of the big reasons that there are now less UK reg trucks on the continent is not so much due to taxes but more to the fact that the UK haulage industry as a whole missed the boat when borders came down and French, German, Dutch companies etc etc rushed to set up depots in other countries and take foreign companies over, British companies were of the opinion that this was not necessary thus they got left behind and at a great disadvantage, slowly but surely at least Wincanton appears to have woken up and got a foothold in Germany but this should have happened years ago when British transport was still strong.

But when the Brits set up depots in other states it does’nt/would’nt translate into more jobs here.Whichever way you look at it they’ll usually deliver continental loads from their end and collect their return loads rather than British drivers and trucks delivering our exports and collecting our imports.I’d still say that there were far more opportunities for British based drivers using British trucks before,and only for a relatively short time after,we entered the Common Market/EEC/EU.

[vascoingles]

Now just look at Norbetrts growth throughout Europe which has translated itself in to a hell of a lot of French jobs as well, it does work for some and there were during the 70’s and 80’s several UKcompanies who were strong enough and big enough to have given it a go if only their management had had the necessary equipment between the legs, between the Dutch and the UK they ruled Europe in the period and there was no reason why it could not have gone on.

[homofaber]

I think I now understand why Coffeeholic has the avatar he has…

My two pennies:
Whether you like it or not, whatever you think of it, whoever rules and governs the UK or any other EU country and whatever they say and others write, whoever claims he/she invented it, the EU-wide pay-as-you-go road charging system WILL be introduced - in 2014-15-16, maybe later.
It’ll be GPS based (as in Germany and Slovakia), it’ll be for all (trucks as well as coaches as well as cars), the rates may be different in different countries but will be set by the EU.
Whatever happens to road tax in individual countries is purely up to respective governments. What happens to non-compatible systems only God knows at the moment.

In fact the eurovignette was first serious attempt to introduce a EU-wide motorway tax but was scrapped as it turned out it would be very complicated to re-distribute the collected money fairly. Some countries then clubbed together and went on to use it to simplify the lives of some.

In Germany the maut was introduced in addition to existing road tax, in Slovakia the road tax was renamed to “vehicle use duty”. Dutch govt claimed that when they introduce distance-based tolling it will replace current tax scheme and won’t be added. Well, will see. The Dutch were the first ones to openly say the system will be for cars too, from 2012 on.
When Slovakia introduced the system early this year the rates had been “recommended” by the EU - and are higher than in Germany; some 50% rebate was later introduced for buses.

If you think the UK govt (in fact any govt) will introduce a road charge for foreign vehicles only then you are just plain naive. If you think that UK won’t adopt the EU-wide GPS toll then… you are trying to convince yourself that you live on different planet.

[wheel_nut]

Vascoingles:

Carryfast:
Before we went into the common market we were paying a standard rate of 8% purchase tax and there were more British trucks running into Europe on TIR work

One of the big reasons that there are now less UK reg trucks on the continent is not so much due to taxes but more to the fact that the UK haulage industry as a whole missed the boat when borders came down and French, German, Dutch companies etc etc rushed to set up depots in other countries and take foreign companies over, British companies were of the opinion that this was not necessary thus they got left behind and at a great disadvantage, slowly but surely at least Wincanton appears to have woken up and got a foothold in Germany but this should have happened years ago when British transport was still strong.

I so wish the search facility of these forums would go back 5 or 6 years as I wrote a long post about this very subject, about the fact that the Dutch and Belgians were buying up companies or at least going into a strong financial partnership with them. I mentioned companies like H&S transport who were building facilities up in Poland. I was quite savagely attacked by a few posters who suggested I was talking out of my arse, many of them had never been out of this country alone.

[carryfast]

HomoFaber:
I think I now understand why Coffeeholic has the avatar he has…

My two pennies:
Whether you like it or not, whatever you think of it, whoever rules and governs the UK or any other EU country and whatever they say and others write, whoever claims he/she invented it, the EU-wide pay-as-you-go road charging system WILL be introduced - in 2014-15-16, maybe later.
It’ll be GPS based (as in Germany and Slovakia), it’ll be for all (trucks as well as coaches as well as cars), the rates may be different in different countries but will be set by the EU.
Whatever happens to road tax in individual countries is purely up to respective governments. What happens to non-compatible systems only God knows at the moment.

In fact the eurovignette was first serious attempt to introduce a EU-wide motorway tax but was scrapped as it turned out it would be very complicated to re-distribute the collected money fairly. Some countries then clubbed together and went on to use it to simplify the lives of some.

In Germany the maut was introduced in addition to existing road tax, in Slovakia the road tax was renamed to “vehicle use duty”. Dutch govt claimed that when they introduce distance-based tolling it will replace current tax scheme and won’t be added. Well, will see. The Dutch were the first ones to openly say the system will be for cars too, from 2012 on.
When Slovakia introduced the system early this year the rates had been “recommended” by the EU - and are higher than in Germany; some 50% rebate was later introduced for buses.

If you think the UK govt (in fact any govt) will introduce a road charge for foreign vehicles only then you are just plain naive. If you think that UK won’t adopt the EU-wide GPS toll then… you are trying to convince yourself that you live on different planet.

So now we know why they spent millions on those zb great big space shuttles.

[carryfast]

Vascoingles:
Now just look at Norbetrts growth throughout Europe which has translated itself in to a hell of a lot of French jobs as well, it does work for some and there were during the 70’s and 80’s several UKcompanies who were strong enough and big enough to have given it a go if only their management had had the necessary equipment between the legs, between the Dutch and the UK they ruled Europe in the period and there was no reason why it could not have gone on.

1970’s and very early 1980’s maybe but mid 1980’s on the writing was on the wall for the British international fleet.No one with any sense would have used British based/registered trucks if they’d bought depots in European states with far less taxation on road transport.It seems obvious that they now intend on making it less cost effective in all member states to move freight over long distances by road by using the British idea of taxing trucks off the road.

[wheel_nut]

Before this thread veers too far off course, I want to pick the brains of several of you, in particular, Vascoingles, Caledonian Dream, Brit Pete or Inselaffe, Homo Faber and any random French Person, Robbies Dad if he is still around and the Austrian bloke.

How much does it cost to “tax” to license or operate a registered artic trailer on the roads of Spain, Holland, Germany, Czech, Hungary, France, Belgium or Austria?

Let me explain my thinking, According to most, we get the sticky end of a muddy stick. So in this free for all of Europe that we all know costs less to license an artic unit.

BUT, here is the crux, each trailer from the countries listed have to be registered and presumably taxed, for a reasonable ratio of units to trailers let us say we have 3 trailers to every unit.

I can only think of one country in the EU who doesn’t have unique registration numbers or road tax on articulated trailers, large caravans, & commercial horseboxes etc. Yes, the United Kingdom.

I Move!

[carryfast]

Wheel Nut:
Before this thread veers too far off course, I want to pick the brains of several of you, in particular, Vascoingles, Caledonian Dream, Brit Pete or Inselaffe, Homo Faber and any random French Person, Robbies Dad if he is still around and the Austrian bloke.

How much does it cost to “tax” to license or operate a registered artic trailer on the roads of Spain, Holland, Germany, Czech, Hungary, France, Belgium or Austria?

Let me explain my thinking, According to most, we get the sticky end of a muddy stick. So in this free for all of Europe that we all know costs less to license an artic unit.

BUT, here is the crux, each trailer from the countries listed have to be registered and presumably taxed, for a reasonable ratio of units to trailers let us say we have 3 trailers to every unit.

I can only think of one country in the EU who doesn’t have unique registration numbers or road tax on articulated trailers, large caravans, & commercial horseboxes etc. Yes, the United Kingdom.

I Move!

Where’s the EU rules which say that you can’t pull British trailers with a unit registered in another member state and it’s obvious that under those regs you would’nt register and tax more trailers than units unless you could pull two or three at once as a roadtrain and what is the combined taxation for a unit and trailer in those member states which tax both seperately ?.In addition to duty and VAT on fuel rates differences and resulting VAT rates charged to the end customer which all combine with lower wage rates in states with a lower cost of living to obviously make it more economic to base trucks in most other states but Britain or the papers here would be full of continental driving vacancies which plainly is’nt the case.

[paul_b]

we seem to be going off track a bit here, this thread is about a possible road user charge in the uk not how much does it cost to tax a trailer in holland, now the polititions will look at it in a logical way i.e theres x amount of haulage carried out in the uk that requires x amount of wagons of various types, that situation isn’t going to change in the near future, it’ll fluctuate through the good and bad times but basically the work has to be done by someone so in theory it dosn’t matter how much it costs to run a wagon if it costs everyone the same, some one made a very valid point that it is a very easy way of raising taxes without upsetting the general public, you increase the tax on haulage which ultimately increases the price of goods in the shops but joe public is oblivios to it, people expect things to get dearer because prices have gone up for as long as they can remember, thats so much easier than directly raising taxes on goods in the shops which would see joe public kicking and screaming and calling for a new government.
so they bring in a road user charge thats more expensive to the haulier than the current system but they know full well they can get away with it because it’s across the board so it’s pay it or pack up! they’ve done exactly that with fuel prices, everybody has complained and said it will be the end of the industry if somethings not done but everybody has still gone out and bought the same amount of diesel because they’ve got no choice, based on that this government or any government is not going to reduce the cost of fuel, never in a million years, it’s easy money that they know people have to pay.
can anyone honestly say that any of the firms that have gone in recent years have done so because of the price of diesel? i don’t think they can, firms have been swallowed up by bigger players or packed in because they can’t compete with those bigger setups, thats just the way it’s going, in not hard to see a point where all haulage in the uk is carried out by or through 10 or 20 major companies, it’s already happened with steel, tdg now run all the haulage for corus, it’s still the same firms doing the work but they are pulling the strings, you can see that happening in all sectors.
so will a road user charge be the end of the industry? no because the works will still be there and someone will do it, we might all find are selves working for a german or dutch owned company but a lot are doing that already.

[homofaber]

Carryfast: not quite “space shuttles”, rather Galileo satellite navigation system.

If you/anyone is interested in official documents and not just hearsay have a look here:
europa.eu/legislation_summaries/ … 214_en.htm
which will take you here:
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … FIN:EN:PDF

Bear in mind the directive was published some time ago and the target dates slipped since then.

Another interesting document here, aei.pitt.edu/1136/01/transport_i … 98_466.pdf, this covers not only roads and motorways but also railways and waterways.

So if a think tank recommends a govt to introduce an electronic toll then they just copied and pasted the idea from EU documents. When a political party or government says it’s thinking about / going to introduce the system then they are just doing what they are bound to do, very carefully and quietly for if the response of public is not the right one then they’ll just blame the office rats in Brussels. In fact, the directive were approved by EU council and parliament with delegates from all countries and each country ratified the agreement…

Wheelnut:
I was also thinking about this, if we could compile a table of costs in various countries, it would be interesting but hardly sufficient to convince some.
My contribution: Slovakia: road tax renamed to vehicle duty when final decision on electronic toll collection was made, vehicles for commercial use are subject to it, company cars for managers are also included, rates vary a bit in different regions (counties), for a 2-axle Euro4/5 tractor you are looking at €700-900, three-axle trailer coupled to it will cost you another €1000-1200 (so that’s about £1450-1790 acc to today’s rate).
Electronic toll collection for vehicles >3.5t, on all motorways, all motor roads and most (single-carriageway) “A-roads”, GPS based system (as in Germany). Vignette for cars on all motorways and motor roads.

In the Czech rep. the hauliers pay road tax of ~24000 koruna for tractors and ~27000 for trailers, that’s ~£1700 per year. There are (were?) some interesting rebates for new vehicles (I am not familiar with details).
Electronic toll collection for vehicles >3.5t on motorways, motor roads and some single-carriageway trunk roads, microwave system (as in Austria). Vignette for cars on motorways and motor roads.

[carryfast]

paul b:
we seem to be going off track a bit here, this thread is about a possible road user charge in the uk not how much does it cost to tax a trailer in holland, now the polititions will look at it in a logical way i.e theres x amount of haulage carried out in the uk that requires x amount of wagons of various types, that situation isn’t going to change in the near future, it’ll fluctuate through the good and bad times but basically the work has to be done by someone so in theory it dosn’t matter how much it costs to run a wagon if it costs everyone the same, some one made a very valid point that it is a very easy way of raising taxes without upsetting the general public, you increase the tax on haulage which ultimately increases the price of goods in the shops but joe public is oblivios to it, people expect things to get dearer because prices have gone up for as long as they can remember, thats so much easier than directly raising taxes on goods in the shops which would see joe public kicking and screaming and calling for a new government.
so they bring in a road user charge thats more expensive to the haulier than the current system but they know full well they can get away with it because it’s across the board so it’s pay it or pack up! they’ve done exactly that with fuel prices, everybody has complained and said it will be the end of the industry if somethings not done but everybody has still gone out and bought the same amount of diesel because they’ve got no choice.

Firstly all the issues of taxation on the road transport industry are relevant to the topic and the idea that the costs incurred by the industry by such taxation can always be passed on to the customer is a flawed one.In the real world what actually happens is that the countries with the lowest taxation are the countries which end up with most of the transport industries based there as any firm would be stupid not to and the rest of us just try to do the job at the lowest price by not passing on the taxation costs which just means that in the end the firm inevitably runs into financial deficit on the balance sheet because taxation exceeds the true running costs.At which point what usually happens is that another small operator then tries to make a go of it by jumping into the shoes of the one who’s just gone under and we get the typical revolving door scenario of one new operator starts up as another one goes under and they obviously now seem intent on increasing the tax burden even higher on a wider basis across europe based on the British idea of taxing trucks off the road so that the big rail freight interests can grab more of the work.

[wheel_nut]

Carryfast:
Where’s the EU rules which say that you can’t pull British trailers with a unit registered in another member state and it’s obvious that under those regs you would’nt register and tax more trailers than units unless you could pull two or three at once as a roadtrain and what is the combined taxation for a unit and trailer in those member states which tax both seperately ?.In addition to duty and VAT on fuel rates differences and resulting VAT rates charged to the end customer which all combine with lower wage rates in states with a lower cost of living to obviously make it more economic to base trucks in most other states but Britain or the papers here would be full of continental driving vacancies which plainly is’nt the case.

Of course you can pull a British trailer with a foreign unit, exactly the same as you can pull a foreign trailer with a British unit, it doesn’t have to be an EU vehicle as was demonstrated by the amount of people doing the Passau trunk with Bulgarian trailers before they joined the EU. A Dutch or Belgium haulier pulling a British trailer will put his own unit number on the trailer. A Dutch or Belgium haulier pulling a French or German trailer doesn’t need to do that.

Forget you childhood dreams of driving a big truck with 2 or 3 trailers in the UK, as I mentioned the ratio of units and semi trailers, a typical owner driver will have 2 trailers, possibly 3, a large company like DHL, Wincanton or TDG have probably got a similar amount utilised as stand trailers, being maintained or ready loaded in a customers premises to be called off. I hope I get the answer to your question too about the combined cost, not only of the kfz steuer, tax or whatever it is called in Spain. This may give you some clues for Germany.

kfz-steuer.de/

Like the merchant navy used flags of convenience to take advantage of lower costs, then the transport industry will follow suit, as we all want a bargain from the supermarkets, unfortunately that means we may have to buy our baked beans from Polgary or Hungland.

The jobs are being advertised, foreign companies like Nedexco, Wolter Koops, Norbert Dentressangle, H&S, Van Den Bosch, Harry Vos, DFDS and others often have vacancies advertised either through the agency or on the jobsites

Anyway back on track now,

Road pricing–world experience

The first city in the world to implement road pricing was Singapore in 1975. Motorists entering the central business district had to buy and display a supplementary paper license; enforcement was by manual inspection. Traffic dropped by 44% and only grew slowly again as the city developed. In 1997, this system was replaced by an electronic one, with tolls varying according to the level of congestion and motorists charged every time they entered the central area. A further 10-15% reduction in traffic resulted.

Within Europe, Bergen implemented a cordon charge for entering the central area in 1986, and Oslo and a number of smaller Norwegian cities followed suit. But the charges were low and mainly intended to raise money for investment in transport infrastructure.

The subsequent London and Stockholm schemes were designed primarily to cut congestion. The London congestion charge was introduced in 2003. Traffic was reduced by 18% and congestion by 30%. Traffic levels in London are still reduced but congestion has returned to pre-charge levels. Stockholm implemented a system in 2006 designed to relieve congestion as well as raising money and achieved a 20% reduction in traffic. Implemented as a trial, it was made permanent following a narrow victory in a referendum amongst Stockholm residents.

A number of other countries have implemented schemes which might be regarded as a form of road pricing, including pricing for express lanes in the US, and goods vehicle charging systems in Switzerland, Austria and Germany. The Netherlands looks set to be the first country to implement comprehensive road pricing nationwide.

Source: Professor Chris Nash

ROAD PRICING IN THE NETHERLANDS

The Dutch Government is committed to introducing a national distance-based charge for all vehicles on all roads–generally referred to as the “price per kilometre” scheme. Assuming that it goes ahead, it will be the most comprehensive road pricing scheme in the world. Implementation will start with goods vehicles in 2011; and for passenger cars in 2012, to be completed by 2016. The charge will be offset by reductions in the existing purchase tax on new vehicles (which can be up to 45% of the list price, depending on the vehicle type). There is an overall commitment to revenue neutrality. Fuel duty–roughly at the same level as in the UK (see Table 2)–will not be affected. The scheme will use satellite GPS technology and each vehicle will be fitted with an on-board unit.

[carryfast]

HomoFaber:
Carryfast: not quite “space shuttles”, rather Galileo satellite navigation system.

They probably had to use ESA instead of NASA to get them up there because if the yanks had found out what they really want all those so called ‘navigation’ sattelites for there would have been another Boston Tea Party in Florida .But somehow I can’t see the yanks taxing their road transport industry into oblivion like the Europeans seem to intend with ours.