I have a question about average working hours over the reference period…
During CPC training it was never mentioned that I could work a 15 hour day so it’s raised lots of questions.
If I have two jobs, one agency role driving on a tacho, and the other is a job in care with lots of down time, e.g. 2 hours break a day and a 2 hour POA at the end of the shift.
…and let’s say over xmas, I have lots of driver hours available…
I can’t exceed 60 hours in one week.
18 of these hours would be driving on tacho with no other driving at all
I can’t exceed 48 hours average in the ref period
Work won’t be available in January.
Can I have one month of working 60 hours each week providing my rest periods are adhered to and in Jan and Feb my driving hours drop to zero.
I know there may be “best practice” issues here, but in terms of law, what’s the score?
Confusing post, it seems to ask if it’s legit to not drive for a couple,of months? Of course it is, just remember that by then, you’ll need to carry 56 days of records.
What lots of care companies forget (assuming your working as a carer in the community) is that traveling between clients homes is working time. The only traveling that doesnt count in that scenario is from your home to the first client and going home from the last client.
The second thing is dont forget that any “other work” you do like your daily checks, getting paper work unloading or loading etc etc is counted towards the working time,
thirdly you seem to be wanting to do 18 hours driving work over the xmas period and 60 hours a week that leads me to assume that your carer job is 48 hours per week in which case you wont bring your average down obviously.
If you do decide to do this remember that 48 hours a week for 17 weeks is 816 hours any hours you do in the xmas period can be subtracted from that and divided by the remaining reference period. For example lets say you do 6 weeks of 60 hours thats 360 hours 816-360 = 456 divided by the remaining weeks of the reference period is 456/11 = 41.45 hours per week average
For clarity…
I do two shifts a week.
9am start
2pm 1hr break
3pm to 6pm activity with 10mins driving of a passenger car, max
6pm 1hr break
9pm bedtime for client and 2hrs POA for me until shift ends at 11pm
It’s a 14 hour day with 2hrs break and 2hrs with nothing to do but still at work.
I usually surf the web or do online gaming and I’m never interrupted.
My hours are recorded and described like on a tacho.
As it goes, my days ARE 14 hours and it IS tricky trying to balance 24 and 48 hour rests, but I’m managing.
Driving shifts avail are typically up to 12 hours with possibility of up to 15.
It’s very tricky to balance.
Okay, that’s good to know.
In addition to all this, I don’t currently do them, but there are also sleep-in shifts available.
Essentially, 11am to 7am.
I did them initially and I rest just fine without interruption, sleeping all night long.
I’m AT work, but from 9pm the guy I look after is in bed with a movie and doesn’t disturb me, and from 11pm I could be sleeping at work.
How’s this viewed in terms of wtd and tacho rules?
It IS at work, but it’s uninterrupted rest, apart from getting up to pee, once in a while.
Thanks for that.
It’s a POA for sure, although I’m resting.
OR IS IT A POA? I wouldn’t be asking if I was sure.
IF I’m interrupted, then I have to tell the truth and report the hours.
So, while I don’t count it as REST, it’s a period where I’m not working because I’m asleep, right?
If you’re working as a driver under EU Rules (we are assuming not UK Domestic) at any time in a week, then you must obey EU rules all of that week.
If you start at 11hr00, sleep at work and end shift at 07hr00 the next day?
Then where is your daily rest?
That looks to me like a 20hr shift, with no daily rest period.
I can fully accept that you probably will be fully rested and fit and well the next day…but the rules do not “see” that.
We are talking rules not “common sense”. The rules are meant to keep transport workers protected from long shifts etc, and don’t seem to recognise the situation you are in.
If you were working full time driving every day, and needing to be available at night in case a family member needed assistance, then no problem, but here you are are on pay for it, so no go.
I hope someone else will correct me, or agree that what I am saying is right.
Remember that in EU you must have 11hrs (or 9hrs if reduced) by the end of 24hrs from shift start (11hr00 in your case)
POA is not work under WTD rules.
POA is not rest under EU rules.
…If you are doing an EU driving shift in any week, then you need to obey break and rest rules in all of that week.
…If you start at 11hr00 you must have 11hrs rest(or 9) before 11hr00 the next day.
…If you are required to stay on the premises, then that is not a valid daily rest.
I can see this is not what you want to hear, and that you are probably not going to be a danger, but as I see it anyway, you cannot do any shifts like that under EU rules.
You are failing to get legal daily rests, and it is planned, not an emergency situation.
I do understand.
For further clarity…
The driving I do is on nightshift.
SO! (…and I don’t do 24h shifts at the moment)
If I DID do a 24h shift from 9am to 9am, where I had a POA from 9pm in that shift, to 9am in that shift, and THEN rested ALL day, I could start a 12hr nightshift at 10pm the same night?
This providing I still adhere to the 24/48 weekly rest periods.
If you are working a driving shift in a week, then you are subject to EU driving rules and break/rest rules for all of that week.
If your records are examined and you have a day with insufficient rest then that is breaking the rules.
By taking a daily rest afterwards you are “drawing a line under it” in the sense that it is not a continuing offence, but it does not wipe it from the record.
In a week that you are under EU rules, you have broken those rules on one day.
The only way you can do a “long shift” is if you record “daily rest” for 11 (9) hrs within 24.
That would look like a 24 hr shift followed by a daily rest period.
The next work period would start at the end of the daily rest period. It would be a separate working day, and not a continuation of the previous day, but it would not make make the previous day legal at all.
It seems you keep try to do a long shift at work and refer to ‘POA’, but the bit you seem to be missing is all that time is ‘other work’ under EU regs whether you call it working or POA. POA doesn’t really apply when your long your cared work to EU regs.