CF what are we going to do with you, with the exception of NMM you don t seem to have afriend on the thread. My reference to weapons was ostensibly ajoke and as you and Lawrence disagree so vehemently offered a solution. Me a trouble maker if you think so I m not bothered. Jack Richardson who you don t know was a 3rd engineer on seagoing vessels, he knows more about engines than you ever will. After he finished atsea he became guess what a wagon driver for Edward Beck lowloader work using ERFs powered by Gardner .He moved from there to Laing National Trafford Park driving yes you ve guessed it ERFs powered by Gardner. He then came to work with us driving firstly his own F88 and later his own F89 .After finishing his OD days he worked for a Co. that used DAF2800s .He left not long after and went to work for Calderdale Council where because of his engineering skills he was soon head of department, it goes without saying that his comments about some of his staff are unprintable this is not his life story he s still with us retired now,but it is adig at you and only in exceptional circumstances were the driving rules relaxed for certain categories ie after the introduction of tachos . Crow.
kr79:
Carryfast:
newmercman:
Carryfast, you say that a 6spd box wouldn’t be any good behind an E290, wrongMulti speed transmissions are not there so you can use every gear, a good driver would skip shift and could easily make good progress with only 6 gears
I had a Sed Ak (UGC 844W) ex Watneys, it had an E290 and a 6spd Allison automatic gearbox, it was a flying machine, not the best on fuel, but not that bad, it certainly never struggled to get up a hill or to accelerate
The bit I’m getting at nmm is the issue of being able to short shift on the upshifts so it’s not taken much beyond the torque peak before each upshift whereas with less gears (and therefore wider ratios) the upshifts have to be delayed to allow the road speed to increase sufficiently before being able to change into the next gear which because of the wider ratios is higher than it needs to be.The idea is to use the extra torque using higher gears,in close steps,to turn the wheel instead of using more engine speed to do the same thing in the lower gear which you have no choice but to hold onto.
Whereas with somehing like the 180 or the 240 that torque just isn’t there anyway so the fewer gear ratios don’t make a lot of difference because the engine has to be run up to higher speed anyway to get enough out of it it,to turn the wheels fast enough,to get somewhere before it can be upshifted into the next one.
That’s why it’s more efficient to put a closer ratio 13 speed with the ■■■■■■■■■■■■ a 9 speed let alone just 6.
I’m betting that it was that issue which probably explains Bewick’s experience,of the fuel consumption issues of the more powerful ■■■■■■■ v Gardner 180 etc.Probably mostly caused by drivers driving something that needs to be driven using the torque by short shifting on the upshifts by trying to do as they did with the Gardner in running it up to close to peak power in every gear although with a wide ratio 6 speed box there wouldn’t be much choice anyway.
The fact is more gearshifts,in the form of short upshifts,instead of hanging on to the lower gears for longer by skipping out ratios,is more economical on fuel not less.But the wagon needs sufficient (preferably the more the better) torque to make that work.
As for the shotgun v the Garand.I thought he said the duel had to take place at rifle type range.
I think you will find for better fuel economy the less gear changes you make the better the economy. You want to be up to a decent speed ASAP but without reving the nuts out of it.
That’s exactly what I said and a lot of short shifted gearchanges with a close ratio box is the way to do it not hanging onto lower gears longer by skipping ratios or using a wide ratio box and the more gears it’s got the closer the ratios are.Contrary to cav’s idea that’s why multi speed transmissions were introduced. 
youtube.com/watch?v=j0n9_E0HBSY
0-0.25
Wrong again CF you must think i m a complete idiot the only time that i ve ever referred to gear boxes is when i mentioned that Volvos 16 speed box was copyied by both ZF and Eaton. I have driven 6 speed David Browns 5 speed Turners ZF multi range Eaton twin splitters et al the best of all Volvos 16 speed, You never set off in 1st but 2nd skip 3rd jump to 4th nor did you knock the ■■■■■■■■ off in any gear experience as well as a rev counter told you when to change gear that 16 speed had a ratio for every eventuallity.Why do i bother it s like casting pearls before swine.Crow.
geoffthecrowtaylor:
CF what are we going to do with you, with the exception of NMM you don t seem to have afriend on the thread. My reference to weapons was ostensibly ajoke and as you and Lawrence disagree so vehemently offered a solution. Me a trouble maker if you think so I m not bothered. Jack Richardson who you don t know was a 3rd engineer on seagoing vessels, he knows more about engines than you ever will. After he finished atsea he became guess what a wagon driver for Edward Beck lowloader work using ERFs powered by Gardner .He moved from there to Laing National Trafford Park driving yes you ve guessed it ERFs powered by Gardner. He then came to work with us driving firstly his own F88 and later his own F89 .After finishing his OD days he worked for a Co. that used DAF2800s .He left not long after and went to work for Calderdale Council where because of his engineering skills he was soon head of department, it goes without saying that his comments about some of his staff are unprintable this is not his life story he s still with us retired now,but it is adig at you and only in exceptional circumstances were the driving rules relaxed for certain categories ie after the introduction of tachos . Crow.
I know that was a joke just as my reply was. If I knew everything about engines I’d have been getting paid a lot more as a design engineer not just one of the drivers who made sure they did what they said on the tin.But it’s the latter of those which is probably more relevant when it comes to reporting back to the designers with the answers that they’re looking for concerning wether it’s going to be up to the job or not.
So you’re saying that you knew someone who drove Gardner powered ERF’s etc but when it came to buying something for himself a Gardner powered wagon obviously wasn’t in the running no surprise there then true to form.
As for the council no it was definitely a case of underpaid job but better than the dole I had to work harder for less money than I ever did in the private sector and no the choice of using log books or tachos was all part of domestic regs which council vehicles used for public works could and maybe still can can run on.I should know I spent around 5 years driving a truck which was fitted with one and told we don’t use it because we don’t need to and you have to use a log book although I can remeber the miserable git of a guvnor saying more than once that he wished we were on tachos because in his view we were all skiving layabouts to which that reply you pretend to pay us so we pretend to work usually shut him up.
geoffthecrowtaylor:
Wrong again CF you must think i m a complete idiot the only time that i ve ever referred to gear boxes is when i mentioned that Volvos 16 speed box was copyied by both ZF and Eaton. I have driven 6 speed David Browns 5 speed Turners ZF multi range Eaton twin splitters et al the best of all Volvos 16 speed, You never set off in 1st but 2nd skip 3rd jump to 4th nor did you knock the ■■■■■■■■ off in any gear experience as well as a rev counter told you when to change gear that 16 speed had a ratio for every eventuallity.Why do i bother it s like casting pearls before swine.Crow.
Apologies Crow that was cav not you I confused who posted it.
It’s a bit difficult to give a lot of credibility to the idea that the 16 speed synchro in a Volvo beats a 13 speed fuller.
Skipping a few gears here an there isn’t the same thing as jumping out of a Gardner 180 with a 6 speed box and then trying to drive a turbocharged ■■■■■■■ the same way assuming that it’s buyer has been sensible enough to order the thing with at least a 9 speed fuller preferably 13.But knowing the British guvnors of the time it would have been a case of I’ve got to take this thing with a 9 speed fuller but if only they’d fit it with a 6 speed DB but no problem the driver will probably leave out a few of them on the upshifts anyway just as I’ve told him.
OK CF lets have atruce goto page 160 on the ME thread read the cmments look at the pics this is what crap drivers do to your valuable machinery,regards Crow.Our Scania had a 9 speed Fuller as did the one and only Transcon with 335e ■■■■■■■ in both cases top gear was too high for the power available as soon as they saw a hill down 1 gear.
geoffthecrowtaylor:
OK CF lets have atruce goto page 160 on the ME thread read the cmments look at the pics this is what crap drivers do to your valuable machinery,regards Crow.Our Scania had a 9 speed Fuller as did the one and only Transcon with 335e ■■■■■■■ in both cases top gear was too high for the power available as soon as they saw a hill down 1 gear.
Sounds about what you’d expect to me if you want a 335 powered wagon to run efficiently on the flat in top at around 60-65 mph then it’s obvious that gear isn’t going to be any good on an incline at least without more torque than just what 335 would have while what’s needed is the ability to just drop half a gear not a full one.Which is why the colonial markets and the US buyers were always pushing the manufacturers to give them more gears hence the 13 speed and more output.Unlike their British counterparts.
I saw the example of what you’ve blamed on crap driving and no surprise to me,if it was,because that type of work always seemed to be a case of who you know to get on not often what you know.Which is why we had knackered old council wagons that lasted more than their expected lifetime and what seems to be decent machinery wrecked by what you’ve said was crap driving. 
A lot of the modern scanias do that top gear on the limiter is only doing about 1100rpm. So obviously as soon as it sees a hill you drop a cog which is direct top but lots of drivers don’t realise it and complain of scanias been gutless.
newmercman:
I never said FA about the 3300I would still take a big cab Roadtrain with an E320 and a twin splitter over a 3300, a space cab on air suspension may swing things in the Daf’s favour though
A 3300 is F12 territory, space cab or not, the Daf wouldn’t get a look in
But that’s exactly the point nmm.I was only referring to the 2800 as an example of the development of the old 680 up to the 3600.We’ve now reached the stage where you need to find something like an F12 or a 320 ■■■■■■■ to beat that old motor which had been around for a large part of the Gardner’s lifetime and at which point Gardner were effectively finished and had been since at least the end of the 1960’s by comparison.From then on we’ve probably exhausted what was possible to be developed by the British manufacturers and the best (easiest cheapest) way forward to remain competitive in the market was by involving the US truck manufacturing industry just as my old employers knew back in the early 1970’s and as was the case with that Leyland Roadtrain and those big power last of the line Fodens in the colonial export markets and ironically now even DAF amongst many other large truck manufacturers.As I’ve said elsewhere I think the Australian truck manufacturing industry since the 1970’s showed that idea taken to it’s logical conclusion.
But one thing is for sure no Gardner powered truck would ever have had the distinction of being said to be in F12 territory and the 680 did far more for the Dutch truck manufacturing industry than the Gardner did for ours.
geoffthecrowtaylor:
Why do i bother it s like casting pearls before swine.Crow.
This thread is a prime example of why the forum needs a “Like” button. Well said, Mr. Crow.
Just a thought on backward thinking hauliers, Foden had a policy eventually where you could spec whatever you wanted and they would build it , hence many high powered Fodens were on the road but not all hauliers needed and still dont need high powered space cab vehicles.Some offer low cab alternatives and some offer narrow cab versions because every hauliers requirements arent identical .Its horses for courses ,back in the early to mid 70s the choice was more limited and something that didnt give out many problems and was tried and tested, was a safe bet for many hauliers just like the Scanias,Volvos and Dafs are today If the Japs offered a new vehicle with a 850 bhp engine at discounted price how many hauliers would take them up on it and how many would think i`ll stick with what i know
Carryfast:
geoffthecrowtaylor:
OK CF lets have atruce goto page 160 on the ME thread read the cmments look at the pics this is what crap drivers do to your valuable machinery,regards Crow.Our Scania had a 9 speed Fuller as did the one and only Transcon with 335e ■■■■■■■ in both cases top gear was too high for the power available as soon as they saw a hill down 1 gear.Sounds about what you’d expect to me if you want a 335 powered wagon to run efficiently on the flat in top at around 60-65 mph then it’s obvious that gear isn’t going to be any good on an incline at least without more torque than just what 335 would have while what’s needed is the ability to just drop half a gear not a full one.Which is why the colonial markets and the US buyers were always pushing the manufacturers to give them more gears hence the 13 speed and more output.Unlike their British counterparts.
I saw the example of what you’ve blamed on crap driving and no surprise to me,if it was,because that type of work always seemed to be a case of who you know to get on not often what you know.Which is why we had knackered old council wagons that lasted more than their expected lifetime and what seems to be decent machinery wrecked by what you’ve said was crap driving.
That 335 ■■■■■■■ was only small cam developing 273 bhp if my memory serves me well, but linked to 13 speed fuller in our transcon did not embarass it self against F10’s and 2800’s
Saviem:
Evening all, ho, ho, ho, boy are you all at it now!!Remember being woken up in a laybye for sleeping in your cab■■? Even in the 70s!! Gentlemen, backward legislation in the UK rules!!
Speed, yes the old Gardner powered lorries were slow, 52mph was about average. We have not really got much past that today have we? Granted our speed up hills was, shall we say a trifle “majestic”! but we got there. I remember standing in my friend Trevor Morris`s yard in Oswestry, when his son Phillip, (always an above average, and very competent driver), swept into the yard in a cloud of dust, driving a very “avant garde” DAF2600 drawbar. Trevor drily commented, “the man who has earned me money is about 15minutes behind”. And 15 minutes later an Atkinson MK1, 9ft 6in, tractor, 150LX arrived, no drama, a “proper haulage waggon”. Why?? Reliable, cheap to run, “driver abuse resistant” unburstable,economic, easy and cheap to repair and operate, with very low depreciation, and of course handsome!!
Not the one that at that time in my life I would have chosen to drive, but now in, (very), mature years I can see the real wisdom of his words. A lorry was, is, only a tool to do a cost effective job in a very “mature”, (low margin), industry. Different lorries, different specifications, and different manufacturers excelled in different segments of the industry. And always will!
My new “chopper” has 900hp!!1 I can do 200acres a day, (believe me Gentlemen that is an ego trip no 600hp lorry could ever compete with)!!! Sensible, in my operation, …no, but it is an indulgance, (and I would never criticise a mans lower powered choice)!! ah well, away to the Bollinger , bon nuit mes braves, Cheerio for now.
Come on “Saviem” 'fess up,is your new chopper capable of 200 acres a day OR you are in the process of “Chopping” 200 acres a day on your corner of the Shropshire Prairie? Maybe you only have a 10 acre small holding but are the largest Agricultural contractor in the “Wrekin” ■■ Cheers Dennis.
you’d need 900bhp to shift all that bollinger saviem , do you import it by the container load ? cheers , dave
Hello Bewick,
So that this makes sense, What did fuel cost back in the early/ mid/ late 70s/ 80s and what was the rate per ton for say 200 miles out bound? What did you expect a return load if any to contribute?
cav551:
Hello Bewick,So that this makes sense, What did fuel cost back in the early/ mid/ late 70s/ 80s and what was the rate per ton for say 200 miles out bound? What did you expect a return load if any to contribute?
I’m sorry “cav551” but that is a difficult question after all these years,and your spanning probably 15 years as well !! IIRV (vaguely) in the early 70’s our artics were averaging circa 60p per mile which climbed to around 75 per mile with rampant inflation in the mid/late 70’s.During the years you are asking about derv used to represent around 22% to 25% of our costs,which was manageable,I believe that this is about 55% to60% of costs nowadays which is IMO ridiculous.I never liked the term “return” load as I always believed that each load should be viable in it’s own right.Probably 95% of all the traffic we hauled at Bewick Transport over the years was “direct” but we did carry some crappy loads but only on one short leg to enable us to put the motor into place to reload our prime traffic.The sort of loads I’m thinking of would be,say,we had motors tipping in Derby and Nottingham we would reload them from Hulland Ward for London where we had tons and tons of Woodpulp and Reels for the N/West so a ■■■■■■ load of concrete,quick on and quick off was a viable job but not the sort of regular traffic we would ever have considered.Another,low rated but quick job that comes to mind was when we tipped East Lancs paper in Birmingham then we’d load Thermalite blocks from Coventry and tip them the same day in Manchester.Add both jobs together and it was a good pay day for a day shift,then the motor would do a night trunk ! Happy days cheers Bewick.
Come on “Saviem” 'fess up,is your new chopper capable of 200 acres a day OR you are in the process of “Chopping” 200 acres a day on your corner of the Shropshire Prairie? Maybe you only have a 10 acre small holding but are the largest Agricultural contractor in the “Wrekin” ■■ Cheers Dennis.
[/quote]
Evening all, oh dear, I am embarresed to own up! Cannot spell, (as anyone who has followed my poor quality posts would confirm Sadly I always\ have had a lack of recognition of words construction, and using a keyboard is very hard indeed, there is a medical definition, but I prefer to forget it)!!
Ive “enjoyed” an “eclectric” career ,with lorries as, driver, (my real love), salesman, European “dogsbody”, disaster in all I did, “rosbouef” (scapegoat), enthusiastic collector of obscure data concerning European manufacturers, lover of the industry, Francofile, "friend of the press, (I knew all the finest Resteraunts, where with difficulty one could park an artic, in amongst the Ferraris, Lambo`s, and Rolls)!) Chef de Flotte, scourge of “salesmen”, for some reason I hate the genre), and anyone who was “up themselves”, lucky to work, know and enjoy the company of many, many fine men and women in our industry, in all capacities, here, in Europe, and the USA. run my own , modest, disaster areas, (businesses), developed a hatred of soft handshakes, weaseley words,backbiting jealousy, (the scourge of British culture), knowalls, loudmouths, unhonerable people, council employees, detail fanatics, and any one whose attitude is, “the answer is NO,… what was the question”!! Importer/Exporter, operator, financier ,and somehow ending up owning over 1200acres of Gods finest county Shropshire. (and a beautiful bit of the Isle of Man, truly the most wonderful, oh the most wondrfull island kingdom, piece of Europe,…but not, let us all rejoice, part of the dour European Union of drabness)!!!
So dear friends thats me,… Bollinger, the greatest gift my friend Andre Giraud gave to me,… to appreciate the bouquet, the surprise, the crispness,pure bliss, so removed from the" normal". And so often transported on my beloved Bernards with their exqusite detail engineering, and licence built Gardner engines!!! Saviems will, dictates that he shall be laid to rest, close by the burial ground of his horses, in a casket formed from the wood of the cases of Bollinger`s long ago so enjoyed. Old and eccentric, oui, but perhaps I was once young but always eccentric!
But Gentlemen, in later years I derive great pleasure from these threads, the contributions of all, the friendships, the knowledge and experience that I envy, and the glimpses of real past and current life in our industry!! Bon chance mes amis, vive les chauffer routiers, Cheerio for now!
Marmon I think you ll find it was 335 bhp which explains it s designation 335e and correct it was nt big cam the Scania I referred to was the ex Sammy Williams with Rolls Royce Eagle 280 bhp 13 speed fullers were nt an option for the years i m talking about but had they been i m sure the performance of both wagons would have been much more impressive, cheers Crow. CF jack after Laing National came to work with me and our Tony at Springfield Transport whose yard was right next to Laings, the reason he bought an F88 was because it was the very one that he drove for Springys.
Carryfast:
Saviem:
Evening all, ho, ho, ho, boy are you all at it now!!Remember being woken up in a laybye for sleeping in your cab■■? Even in the 70s!! Gentlemen, backward legislation in the UK rules!!
Speed, yes the old Gardner powered lorries were slow, 52mph was about average. We have not really got much past that today have we? Granted our speed up hills was, shall we say a trifle “majestic”! but we got there. I remember standing in my friend Trevor Morris`s yard in Oswestry, when his son Phillip, (always an above average, and very competent driver), swept into the yard in a cloud of dust, driving a very “avant garde” DAF2600 drawbar. Trevor drily commented, “the man who has earned me money is about 15minutes behind”. And 15 minutes later an Atkinson MK1, 9ft 6in, tractor, 150LX arrived, no drama, a “proper haulage waggon”. Why?? Reliable, cheap to run, “driver abuse resistant” unburstable,economic, easy and cheap to repair and operate, with very low depreciation, and of course handsome!!
Not the one that at that time in my life I would have chosen to drive, but now in, (very), mature years I can see the real wisdom of his words. A lorry was, is, only a tool to do a cost effective job in a very “mature”, (low margin), industry. Different lorries, different specifications, and different manufacturers excelled in different segments of the industry. And always will!
My new “chopper” has 900hp!!1 I can do 200acres a day, (believe me Gentlemen that is an ego trip no 600hp lorry could ever compete with)!!! Sensible, in my operation, …no, but it is an indulgance, (and I would never criticise a mans lower powered choice)!! ah well, away to the Bollinger , bon nuit mes braves, Cheerio for now.
It might upset a few people but I’m guessing the 2600 drawbar could probably shift more freight over more miles over the course of a year than the 150 could especially if there’s a few hills in the way.Although it was only the first step on the road to the 3600 by which time we all know what had become of Gardner and why.
Hi Carryfast,
It is easy to see why your words don’t come from a person who ran a business in the Road Haulage Industry in the sixties and seventies on the small profit margins available.
I would agree in a 100% efficient world, your words could be true but that was never the case. Availability of work, and customer requirements was a factor that immediately dismisses your statements. We were restricted by delivery times where goods had to be delivered during the working hours of shops, warehouses and factories, and the extra average mile or so achieved in every running hour would make no difference to the vehicle earnings, as the 24 hour working day was so much rarer in that time.
I can tell you by experience when I often followed my father, after he collected new Bedford Marsden vans from Marsden at Warrington and was deliberately keeping his speed to below 40 mph and giving the engines low revs as he believed the first 100 mile or so on a new engine settled the life performance of that vehicle, I often gave him a 10 minute start as he went up the M1 to Tebay.I was always travelling in fast expensive cars and never kept to the 70 limit and often I thought I had passed him without noticing him as it took me so long to catch up to him.
We had few factors that could reduce our operating costs and pass down to the bottom line. Drivers’ wages were a fixed cost, as few drivers in their right mind would have accepted £10 per week less for driving a more comfortable vehicle. (I can hear you arguing against that statement, but I am speaking as a person who knew lorry drivers and how they thought and worked). Our next big cost was our diesel bill, and believe it or not Gardner engine vehicles did reduce this. The next cost was running costs and as had been said before on this thread, a Gardner engined vehicle did nearly always get you home and was cheap to fix.
Carl
geoffthecrowtaylor:
Marmon I think you ll find it was 335 bhp which explains it s designation 335e and correct it was nt big cam the Scania I referred to was the ex Sammy Williams with Rolls Royce Eagle 280 bhp 13 speed fullers were nt an option for the years i m talking about but had they been i m sure the performance of both wagons would have been much more impressive, cheers Crow. CF jack after Laing National came to work with me and our Tony at Springfield Transport whose yard was right next to Laings, the reason he bought an F88 was because it was the very one that he drove for Springys.
Not sure what years that you’re referring to Crow but customers in the North American and colonial markets were speccing trucks with 13 speed fullers at least during the mid-late 1960’s.The fact that many British customers thought that the 6 speed DB was state of the art at that time and the 9 speed fuller was sufficient,even going into the 1980’s,says a lot about the backward nature of the domestic market.
But no surprise there aren’t many Gardner powered wagons on the Middle East topic although I’m guessing a lot of that topic relates to the late 1970’s when there were probably plenty available being flogged off cheap when their buyers suddenly realised that the 1930’s were over.In which case it’s no surprise that they usually ended up working on the fair grounds where the idea of cheap to buy and run,not hauling a lot of freight over a lot of miles,was the priority.