Gardner ENGINES

[carryfast]

Carl Williams:

Carryfast:

Saviem:
Evening all, ho, ho, ho, boy are you all at it now!!

Remember being woken up in a laybye for sleeping in your cab■■? Even in the 70s!! Gentlemen, backward legislation in the UK rules!!

Speed, yes the old Gardner powered lorries were slow, 52mph was about average. We have not really got much past that today have we? Granted our speed up hills was, shall we say a trifle “majestic”! but we got there. I remember standing in my friend Trevor Morris`s yard in Oswestry, when his son Phillip, (always an above average, and very competent driver), swept into the yard in a cloud of dust, driving a very “avant garde” DAF2600 drawbar. Trevor drily commented, “the man who has earned me money is about 15minutes behind”. And 15 minutes later an Atkinson MK1, 9ft 6in, tractor, 150LX arrived, no drama, a “proper haulage waggon”. Why?? Reliable, cheap to run, “driver abuse resistant” unburstable,economic, easy and cheap to repair and operate, with very low depreciation, and of course handsome!!

Not the one that at that time in my life I would have chosen to drive, but now in, (very), mature years I can see the real wisdom of his words. A lorry was, is, only a tool to do a cost effective job in a very “mature”, (low margin), industry. Different lorries, different specifications, and different manufacturers excelled in different segments of the industry. And always will!

My new “chopper” has 900hp!!1 I can do 200acres a day, (believe me Gentlemen that is an ego trip no 600hp lorry could ever compete with)!!! Sensible, in my operation, …no, but it is an indulgance, (and I would never criticise a mans lower powered choice)!! ah well, away to the Bollinger , bon nuit mes braves, Cheerio for now.

It might upset a few people but I’m guessing the 2600 drawbar could probably shift more freight over more miles over the course of a year than the 150 could especially if there’s a few hills in the way.Although it was only the first step on the road to the 3600 by which time we all know what had become of Gardner and why.

Hi Carryfast,
It is easy to see why your words don’t come from a person who ran a business in the Road Haulage Industry in the sixties and seventies on the small profit margins available.
I would agree in a 100% efficient world, your words could be true but that was never the case. Availability of work, and customer requirements was a factor that immediately dismisses your statements. We were restricted by delivery times where goods had to be delivered during the working hours of shops, warehouses and factories, and the extra average mile or so achieved in every running hour would make no difference to the vehicle earnings, as the 24 hour working day was so much rarer in that time.
I can tell you by experience when I often followed my father, after he collected new Bedford Marsden vans from Marsden at Warrington and was deliberately keeping his speed to below 40 mph and giving the engines low revs as he believed the first 100 mile or so on a new engine settled the life performance of that vehicle, I often gave him a 10 minute start as he went up the M1 to Tebay.I was always travelling in fast expensive cars and never kept to the 70 limit and often I thought I had passed him without noticing him as it took me so long to catch up to him.
We had few factors that could reduce our operating costs and pass down to the bottom line. Drivers’ wages were a fixed cost, as few drivers in their right mind would have accepted £10 per week less for driving a more comfortable vehicle. (I can hear you arguing against that statement, but I am speaking as a person who knew lorry drivers and how they thought and worked). Our next big cost was our diesel bill, and believe it or not Gardner engine vehicles did reduce this. The next cost was running costs and as had been said before on this thread, a Gardner engined vehicle did nearly always get you home and was cheap to fix.
Carl

But the fact is nothing really changed in a big way in the road transport environment in general,including trunking operations,between 1975 and 1985.Except the type of trucks that the customers were ordering and unfortunately for Gardner even customers like Bewick jumped ship.

Ironically if you’re right then my old employers would obviously have been ordering the 2800 for it’s trunking operations and Gardner powered trucks for it’s tramping/haulage operations in 1977 not vice versa.

[lawrence_dunbar]

C/F, I drove wagons in the 50s One inparticular WTN 58, A four wheeler Atki with a 5 Potter Gardner, 32 MPH, the speed limit was 20 MPH, for this type of motor, I used to run from Newcastle to Manchester tip reload then up to Rutherglen tip & reload back to Newcastle twice a week, I earned £20.00 a week which was top money in those days , & my gaffer was asa happy as a butchers dog with 2 dicks, & I never had any mechanical problems, Regards Larry.

[bewick]

This shot is just for you to savour C/F,two 8LXB ERF “B” series units standing in an almost empty depot in the late afternoon,having done a day shift they are awaiting their night men who will trunk them to Daventry and back.These motors never missed a beat my old son,they were a definite improvement on the two Sed/Atk units they replaced though which were badly let down by the Seddon Group axles ( the 8LXB engines were ok though) I ordered the ERF’s with the Eaton single speed axle,end of axle probs !! Cheers Bewick.

[carryfast]

Bewick:
This shot is just for you to savour C/F,two ERF “B” series units standing in an almost empty depot in the late afternoon,having done a day shift they are awaiting their night men who will trunk them to Daventry and back.These motors never missed a beat my old son,they were a definite improvement on the two Sed/Atk units they replaced though which were badly let down by the Seddon Group axles ( the 8LXB engines were ok though) I ordered the ERF’s with the Eaton single speed axle,end of axle probs !! Cheers Bewick.

If I’d have known about this discussion at the time I’d have got you a very similar photo to that one of our yard shunter at around 5.30 in the morning just as I walked out the gate on my way home having left Feltham at around 9 the previous evening on a run to Leeds and back including an hour off for a break.

[carryfast]

Lawrence Dunbar:
C/F, I drove wagons in the 50s One inparticular WTN 58, A four wheeler Atki with a 5 Potter Gardner, 32 MPH, the speed limit was 20 MPH, for this type of motor, I used to run from Newcastle to Manchester tip reload then up to Rutherglen tip & reload back to Newcastle twice a week, I earned £20.00 a week which was top money in those days , & my gaffer was asa happy as a butchers dog with 2 dicks, & I never had any mechanical problems, Regards Larry.

But the problem for Gardner was that none of their loyal customers wanted to listen to that argument when they finally realised that things were no longer as they were during the 1930’s.

[ramone]

Bewick:
This shot is just for you to savour C/F,two 8LXB ERF “B” series units standing in an almost empty depot in the late afternoon,having done a day shift they are awaiting their night men who will trunk them to Daventry and back.These motors never missed a beat my old son,they were a definite improvement on the two Sed/Atk units they replaced though which were badly let down by the Seddon Group axles ( the 8LXB engines were ok though) I ordered the ERF’s with the Eaton single speed axle,end of axle probs !! Cheers Bewick.

Whats the unit in the field Dennis it looks like an old Laird (not one of your old ones is it?) or could it be a D series ?

[bewick]

ramone:

Bewick:
This shot is just for you to savour C/F,two 8LXB ERF “B” series units standing in an almost empty depot in the late afternoon,having done a day shift they are awaiting their night men who will trunk them to Daventry and back.These motors never missed a beat my old son,they were a definite improvement on the two Sed/Atk units they replaced though which were badly let down by the Seddon Group axles ( the 8LXB engines were ok though) I ordered the ERF’s with the Eaton single speed axle,end of axle probs !! Cheers Bewick.

Whats the unit in the field Dennis it looks like an old Laird (not one of your old ones is it?) or could it be a D series ?

Actually “ramone” that scrap you refer to is at the other side of the main West Coast line to Scotland.It was the other part of the old sidings but was a long narrow strip as opposed to the goods yard on our side which fanned out and joined the origional K.Fell yard which together gave us a 3 acre site.Cheers Dennis.

[bewick]

This is an ariel shot that Libby’s had taken in around late '76 and not long after we’d bought K.Fell’s.The Fell depot is in the top left corner and the rest of what was to become our depot is between the origional yard and the Main Line.The MOT station is top centre and had been built on the northern end of the old Goods yard in '67/68.Cheers Dennis.

[valkyrie]

Carryfast:

Lawrence Dunbar:
C/F, I drove wagons in the 50s One inparticular WTN 58, A four wheeler Atki with a 5 Potter Gardner, 32 MPH, the speed limit was 20 MPH, for this type of motor, I used to run from Newcastle to Manchester tip reload then up to Rutherglen tip & reload back to Newcastle twice a week, I earned £20.00 a week which was top money in those days , & my gaffer was asa happy as a butchers dog with 2 dicks, & I never had any mechanical problems, Regards Larry.

But the problem for Gardner was that none of their loyal customers wanted to listen to that argument when they finally realised that things were no longer as they were during the 1930’s.

Well said Carryfast
Atkinson L745,Bowfront-cabbed,whatever body,4x2 Lorry,WTN 58,Newcastle-on-Tyne June 1955-registered,powered by a Gardner 5LW K-Type 94 BHP,300 lbs.ft torque engine…although it could have been even worse: This was the uprated version of the original 5LW,which was introduced in 1931 (along with the 4LW and 6LW) and produced a miserly 85 BHP and 285 lbs.ft of torque Underpowered in both cases.
And,in just a few short years from this Atkinson being built,the Motorway Age in the United Kingdom began,motorways were primarly built for fast transportation of the nation’s freight which,of course,called for faster and more powerful lorries. Hence AEC,Leyland and Foden had come out with 192 to 225 BHP diesel engines by 1962,while the backward Gardner company plodded on with the 6LX,which produced a mere 150 BHP and ■■■■■■■ and Rolls-Royce were offering engines in the 180-200 BHP plus range.
I fully explained Gardner’s post war history in my previous post on Wednesday, August 29, 2012 7:25 pm,page 18.

Yes.many lorry operators made a good living operating Gardner-engined lorries,BUT,as I pointed out in my above previous post,very many other lorry operators made a lucrative living by operating non-Gardner-powered Fodens,Leylands,ERFs,Atkinsons,AECs,Seddon Atkinsons,Scammells,Guys,Volvos,Mercedes-Benzs,Scanias,etc,thank you very much…and they didn’t really care for the peculier,slow and underpowered world of Gardner. Some operators,of course,operated a mixture of both non-Gardner-powered vehicles and Gardner-engined vehicles,but,say the AEC lorries were bought on merit and to overcome Gardner waiting lists.

The Gardner Engine was known as The Showmans Friend in the travelling fun fair business,because many showmen operated Gardner-engined lorries (and buses and motorcoaches at one time!) and operated Gardner-engined generator sets. But,many other showmen operated AECs,Leylands,Volvos,Scanias,■■■■■■■ and Rolls-Royce-engined Fodens,etc,etc.There aren’t that many Gardner-engined fairground vehicles these days - it’s usually ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ and Perkins-Rolls-Royce-engined Fodens,ERFs and Seddon Atkinsons with an ever growing number of Scanias,Volvos,Mercedes-Benzs,etc,which reflect the fall of the British Commercial Vehicle Industry …and many Gardner generator sets have been replaced with sound proof,purpose-built generator sets by Volvo,■■■■■■■■■■■■■ have also come across many generator sets powered by AEC,Bedford,Leyland, Isuzu,Lister (aircooled),Deutz(watercooled),Scania,Ford,Caterpillar,etc,diesel engines.

And in the motorcoach and bus world it was/is just the same scene:Gardner-engined motorcoaches and buses,but there were also a great many non-Gardner motorcoaches and buses,such as AEC,Bristol,Crossely,Daimler,Dennis,Foden,Leyland,Guy,etc,and in more modern times ,Van Hool,Scania,Bova,Volvo,Neoplan,Alexander Dennis,MAN,Mercedes-Benz,etc.

Thus,to a great many of the above operators of lorries,buses,motorcoaches and fairground vehicles,Gardner Engines WERE NOT A BIG DEAL.FULL STOP.They got more satisfaction in operating non Gardner motor vehicles,such as the superior AECs,Leylands,Foden two strokes,■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ were NOT IMPRESSED by Gardner Engines - at least within the context of operating them professionally. As I said in my other post,I admire the precision and beauty of Gardner Diesel Engines,and would preserve some Gardner-engined historic motor vehicles,but underpowered Gardner-engined lorries and/or buses and/or motorcoaches would be BANNED from my fleet!

Now I might be wrong about this (I don’t think I am,actually):But from the late 1970s onwards,had it not been for Caterpillar,■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ and Rolls-Royce Diesel Engines being bought and installed in Fodens,ERFs,Seddon Atkinsons,etc,the Götterdämmerung of what remained of the British Commercial Vehicle Industry would have been brought forward by around ten years more or less. Because,1 Gardner were not producing powerful enough engines,2 Gardner under produced engines,and could never fulfill production numbers without the help of two or three year long waiting lists,3 Every new Gardner engine fitted to a new motor vehicle had a big surcharge,4 The maximum weight for standard tractive unit-artics was increased to 38 tonnes,which left Gardner even more behind in the power requirements context for lorry operators! and 5 In 1984 The new Gardner 5LXCT,6LXDT and 6LYT Diesel Engine Range was introduced,and although these engines were comparitively powerful for their time,they were not properly developed which lead to quality control problems and engine breakdowns. Therefore,Gardner sales and credibility,which had been on the way down for years and years anyway,plunged lower than ever before
In 1983 Gardner had a 15% share of the engine market for rigid eight-wheeler lorries.
By 1987 this share had fallen to 3.4%.

In 1983 Gardner had a 5% share of the engine market for 29 tonnes plus GTW tractive units.
By 1987 this share had fallen to 1.5%.

The majority of lorry,motorcoach and bus operators were and are happy without Gardner Diesel Engines

Sam Anderson,Harold Wood,Bowaters,Peter Slater,London Brick Company,etc,all had big AEC lorry fleets,and some of these were 100% AEC - with no slowcoach-underpowered Gardner-engined vehicles allowed in those fleets! :-
AEC Mammoth Major Eight Mk V G8RA Tanker-bodied 8x2 or 8x4 Lorry,5075 WU,registered in the West Riding of Yorkshire in 1960,operated by Harold Wood:-
flickr.com/photos/62532775@N03/7006963245/

AEC Mammoth Major Eight Tin Front Mk III Flat-bodied 8x2 or 8x4 Lorry,operated by Sam Anderson,Newhouse,Scotland:-
flickr.com/photos/saltleyman/4419872684/

And two white harbingers of the future:Two super and magnificent Scania R143M V8 400 6x2 Reefer Boxvan Articulated Lorries represent a future with no lorry fleets operating Gardner-engined lorries and no British lorry marques :-
flickr.com/photos/dscn8785/4607760797/

And who can we objectively blame for the above present state of affairs?:Lord Donald Stokes of Leyland,Ron Ellis and the rest of the mis-mangement of British Leyland,British Governments and politicians,Sir George Harriman and several other so-called managers,PACCAR,IVECO,MAN,DAF,General Motors,Ford,Chrysler and so on,including the terriablly mis-managed L.Gardner & Sons Ltd,which was a stagnant and backward thinking company and,apparently,so were many Gardner operators (some of whom must have been penny-pinching misers! - so obsessed were they with fuel economy ).Carryfast is objectively right:Hugh Gardner,his company and at least some of it’s customers were fuddy-duddys who collectively wrecked the company for the long term because of the underpowered Gardner engines nonsense.
Yes.The above lot are the ones who are responsible for the Götterdämmerung of the British Commercial Vehicle Industry.

And the departed Lord Stokes,Ron Ellis,Hugh Gardner and co.will be now be learning the severe
errors of their criminal ways in Valhalla-The Elysian Fields - The Other World (I believe in the Afterlife),while they look down on scenes such as the one that is depicted in the Eddie Stobart
lorries photograph below,and longingly say “Eddie Stobart,and other road haulage companies,
really ought to be operating modern leading-edge technology AEC,Leyland,Gardner-engined Foden
and Scammell lorries and other British marques.”

And a superb The Future Is Now photograph of two magnificent Eddie Stobart lorries on the M1 Motorway together:Scania R440 Topline 6x2 Artic Lorry,PX12 NYF,AMY MICHELLE,HO128,and Volvo
FH13 Globetrotter 6x2 Artic Lorry,PX10 DHC,CHARLOTTE JUNE,H4477. :-
flickr.com/photos/through_vi … 088609989/

VALKYRIE.

[carryfast]

VALKYRIE:

Carryfast:

Lawrence Dunbar:
C/F, I drove wagons in the 50s One inparticular WTN 58, A four wheeler Atki with a 5 Potter Gardner, 32 MPH, the speed limit was 20 MPH, for this type of motor, I used to run from Newcastle to Manchester tip reload then up to Rutherglen tip & reload back to Newcastle twice a week, I earned £20.00 a week which was top money in those days , & my gaffer was asa happy as a butchers dog with 2 dicks, & I never had any mechanical problems, Regards Larry.

But the problem for Gardner was that none of their loyal customers wanted to listen to that argument when they finally realised that things were no longer as they were during the 1930’s.

Well said Carryfast
Atkinson L745,Bowfront-cabbed,whatever body,4x2 Lorry,WTN 58,Newcastle-on-Tyne June 1955-registered,powered by a Gardner 5LW K-Type 94 BHP,300 lbs.ft torque engine…although it could have been even worse: This was the uprated version of the original 5LW,which was introduced in 1931 (along with the 4LW and 6LW) and produced a miserly 85 BHP and 285 lbs.ft of torque Underpowered in both cases.
And,in just a few short years from this Atkinson being built,the Motorway Age in the United Kingdom began,motorways were primarly built for fast transportation of the nation’s freight which,of course,called for faster and more powerful lorries. Hence AEC,Leyland and Foden had come out with 192 to 225 BHP diesel engines by 1962,while the backward Gardner company plodded on with the 6LX,which produced a mere 150 BHP and ■■■■■■■ and Rolls-Royce were offering engines in the 180-200 BHP plus range.
I fully explained Gardner’s post war history in my previous post on Wednesday, August 29, 2012 7:25 pm,page 18.

Yes.many lorry operators made a good living operating Gardner-engined lorries,BUT,as I pointed out in my above previous post,very many other lorry operators made a lucrative living by operating non-Gardner-powered Fodens,Leylands,ERFs,Atkinsons,AECs,Seddon Atkinsons,Scammells,Guys,Volvos,Mercedes-Benzs,Scanias,etc,thank you very much…and they didn’t really care for the peculier,slow and underpowered world of Gardner. Some operators,of course,operated a mixture of both non-Gardner-powered vehicles and Gardner-engined vehicles,but,say the AEC lorries were bought on merit and to overcome Gardner waiting lists.

The Gardner Engine was known as The Showmans Friend in the travelling fun fair business,because many showmen operated Gardner-engined lorries (and buses and motorcoaches at one time!) and operated Gardner-engined generator sets. But,many other showmen operated AECs,Leylands,Volvos,Scanias,■■■■■■■ and Rolls-Royce-engined Fodens,etc,etc.There aren’t that many Gardner-engined fairground vehicles these days - it’s usually ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ and Perkins-Rolls-Royce-engined Fodens,ERFs and Seddon Atkinsons with an ever growing number of Scanias,Volvos,Mercedes-Benzs,etc,which reflect the fall of the British Commercial Vehicle Industry …and many Gardner generator sets have been replaced with sound proof,purpose-built generator sets by Volvo,■■■■■■■■■■■■■ have also come across many generator sets powered by AEC,Bedford,Leyland, Isuzu,Lister (aircooled),Deutz(watercooled),Scania,Ford,Caterpillar,etc,diesel engines.

And in the motorcoach and bus world it was/is just the same scene:Gardner-engined motorcoaches and buses,but there were also a great many non-Gardner motorcoaches and buses,such as AEC,Bristol,Crossely,Daimler,Dennis,Foden,Leyland,Guy,etc,and in more modern times ,Van Hool,Scania,Bova,Volvo,Neoplan,Alexander Dennis,MAN,Mercedes-Benz,etc.

Thus,to a great many of the above operators of lorries,buses,motorcoaches and fairground vehicles,Gardner Engines WERE NOT A BIG DEAL.FULL STOP.They got more satisfaction in operating non Gardner motor vehicles,such as the superior AECs,Leylands,Foden two strokes,■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ were NOT IMPRESSED by Gardner Engines - at least within the context of operating them professionally. As I said in my other post,I admire the precision and beauty of Gardner Diesel Engines,and would preserve some Gardner-engined historic motor vehicles,but underpowered Gardner-engined lorries and/or buses and/or motorcoaches would be BANNED from my fleet!

Now I might be wrong about this (I don’t think I am,actually):But from the late 1970s onwards,had it not been for Caterpillar,■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ and Rolls-Royce Diesel Engines being bought and installed in Fodens,ERFs,Seddon Atkinsons,etc,the Götterdämmerung of what remained of the British Commercial Vehicle Industry would have been brought forward by around ten years more or less. Because,1 Gardner were not producing powerful enough engines,2 Gardner under produced engines,and could never fulfill production numbers without the help of two or three year long waiting lists,3 Every new Gardner engine fitted to a new motor vehicle had a big surcharge,4 The maximum weight for standard tractive unit-artics was increased to 38 tonnes,which left Gardner even more behind in the power requirements context for lorry operators! and 5 In 1984 The new Gardner 5LXCT,6LXDT and 6LYT Diesel Engine Range was introduced,and although these engines were comparitively powerful for their time,they were not properly developed which lead to quality control problems and engine breakdowns. Therefore,Gardner sales and credibility,which had been on the way down for years and years anyway,plunged lower than ever before
In 1983 Gardner had a 15% share of the engine market for rigid eight-wheeler lorries.
By 1987 this share had fallen to 3.4%.

In 1983 Gardner had a 5% share of the engine market for 29 tonnes plus GTW tractive units.
By 1987 this share had fallen to 1.5%.

The majority of lorry,motorcoach and bus operators were and are happy without Gardner Diesel Engines

Sam Anderson,Harold Wood,Bowaters,Peter Slater,London Brick Company,etc,all had big AEC lorry fleets,and some of these were 100% AEC - with no slowcoach-underpowered Gardner-engined vehicles allowed in those fleets! :-
AEC Mammoth Major Eight Mk V G8RA Tanker-bodied 8x2 or 8x4 Lorry,5075 WU,registered in the West Riding of Yorkshire in 1960,operated by Harold Wood:-
flickr.com/photos/62532775@N03/7006963245/

AEC Mammoth Major Eight Tin Front Mk III Flat-bodied 8x2 or 8x4 Lorry,operated by Sam Anderson,Newhouse,Scotland:-
flickr.com/photos/saltleyman/4419872684/

And two white harbingers of the future:Two super and magnificent Scania R143M V8 400 6x2 Reefer Boxvan Articulated Lorries represent a future with no lorry fleets operating Gardner-engined lorries and no British lorry marques :-
flickr.com/photos/dscn8785/4607760797/

And who can we objectively blame for the above present state of affairs?:Lord Donald Stokes of Leyland,Ron Ellis and the rest of the mis-mangement of British Leyland,British Governments and politicians,Sir George Harriman and several other so-called managers,PACCAR,IVECO,MAN,DAF,General Motors,Ford,Chrysler and so on,including the terriablly mis-managed L.Gardner & Sons Ltd,which was a stagnant and backward thinking company and,apparently,so were many Gardner operators (some of whom must have been penny-pinching misers! - so obsessed were they with fuel economy ).Carryfast is objectively right:Hugh Gardner,his company and at least some of it’s customers were fuddy-duddys who collectively wrecked the company for the long term because of the underpowered Gardner engines nonsense.
Yes.The above lot are the ones who are responsible for the Götterdämmerung of the British Commercial Vehicle Industry.

And the departed Lord Stokes,Ron Ellis,Hugh Gardner and co.will be now be learning the severe
errors of their criminal ways in Valhalla-The Elysian Fields - The Other World (I believe in the Afterlife),while they look down on scenes such as the one that is depicted in the Eddie Stobart
lorries photograph below,and longingly say “Eddie Stobart,and other road haulage companies,
really ought to be operating modern leading-edge technology AEC,Leyland,Gardner-engined Foden
and Scammell lorries and other British marques.”

And a superb The Future Is Now photograph of two magnificent Eddie Stobart lorries on the M1 Motorway together:Scania R440 Topline 6x2 Artic Lorry,PX12 NYF,AMY MICHELLE,HO128,and Volvo
FH13 Globetrotter 6x2 Artic Lorry,PX10 DHC,CHARLOTTE JUNE,H4477. :-
flickr.com/photos/through_vi … 088609989/

VALKYRIE.

I think the evasive nature of Bewick’s answers, (being one of the prime examples of one of those loyal customers who then jumped ship) ,concerning the questions related to his exact reasoning why,naturally aspirated Gardner 180 or 240 powered wagons were seen as more than adequate for the job and then suddenly,within a relatively few years,but not a few as they should have been,he changed his mind by dropping Gardner like a hot stone and went over to the turbocharged scandinavian competition,says everything.

As for your examples of the more open minded non Gardner operators this is an example of what might have been if only the British truck manufacturing industry had followed the example of the Australian one by just ditching everything and going for a totally all American approach and at the very least have based our continuing memebership of the EU,and therefore the continuance of an open market for European truck imports here,on the requirement that British built US designed trucks would have been entitled to full EU type approval status.

But with,of course,a domestic customer base,that thought like that operator and the Australian and New Zealand one,at the time when it mattered (1970’s),not one made up of too many customers who thought like Bewick and his followers at the time (and some obviously even today ).

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=41082&start=60#p474530

[frankydobo]

I’ve lost the will to live reading this lot!

[lawrence_dunbar]

C/F, It dosnt matter a ■■■■ to me & a lot of other hauliers & drivers that drove & owned Gardner Powered Motors what you think, Speaking for myself The Gardner Engined Vehicles that we were involved with made us some money, & thats what being in the haualge game was all about in the days of the 20MPH Speed limit for wagons over three ton ULW. & no doubt fuel ecconemy still plays a major part in the running of 44.tonners to-day, Why dont you go back to school & start to learn all over again, tell me please are you a Brit ? Regards Larry.

[harry_gill]

Frankydobo:
I’ve lost the will to live reading this lot!

hiya,
I wasn’t aware that anyone would read it, good for you.
thanks harry, long retired.

[newmercman]

VALKYRIE does make a good point though, yes it’s true that many hauliers made good money from Gardner powered wagons, but many also made money without having a Gardner in their fleet

You old codgers need to stop taking things so personally

Gardner Engines were not the be all and end all, some liked them, some didn’t, who was right and who was wrong Both of them and none of them

[lawrence_dunbar]

Yes, you are correct in what you say about us old codgers, speaking for myself & my involment with the old Gardners we had no problems at all, We also ran motors with The Perkins Eagles in & we had good service out of them to, but each & every haulier chooses their motors that suits their opperations & every one is different as Im sure you will agree, The old Gardners are a thing of the past I must admit, but there is no need for this C/F geaser to gloat in it , after all Lewis Gardner was a brilliant engineer in his day, Regards Larry

[carryfast]

Lawrence Dunbar:
C/F, Why dont you go back to school & start to learn all over again, tell me please are you a Brit ? Regards Larry.

As much a Brit as any operator of or employee of Kenworth Australia is an Australian supporting the Australian truck manufacturing industry.

The problem is the Brits never got the chance unlike the Ozzies because we were lumbered with a backward thinking customer base who’d never have bought the things if they’d have built them because too many of them preferred ERF’s with Gardner 180’s or 240’s and DB 6 speed boxes.The rest is history.

[windrush]

I agree with Larry, the internal parts of a Gardner are a work of engineering art compared with other engines and could be cleaned and polished fit enough to grace any showcase. We had plenty of problems with them but they were worked really hard on tipper and powder tank work, they were steady on hill’s but could motor well enough on the flat (60+) and folk like Allinsons of Stockport made them fly both uphill and down dale!!! When we later had R/R 220 and 265 Eagles we thought that nothing could touch them, now a four wheeler has that power and more, times and conditions change and probably in 20+ years folk will be talking on trucknet about how pathetic those old trucks of the noughties were with just a 600 BHP Detroit diesel under their cab?

Pete.

[lawrence_dunbar]

C/F why dont you put up for parliement ? am sure they could find a job for someone that thinks like you do, Regards Larry.

[ramone]

Lawrence Dunbar:
Yes, you are correct in what you say about us old codgers, speaking for myself & my involment with the old Gardners we had no problems at all, We also ran motors with The Perkins Eagles in & we had good service out of them to, but each & every haulier chooses their motors that suits their opperations & every one is different as Im sure you will agree, The old Gardners are a thing of the past I must admit, but there is no need for this C/F geaser to gloat in it , after all Lewis Gardner was a brilliant engineer in his day, Regards Larry

Well LD you are 100% right imho ,its horses for courses but theres no getting away with how popular they were , i would say more popular with the haulier as opposed to the driver but theres many driver on here who also have fond memories of them ,but Gardner werent alone in being slow to respond to the need for development ,theres virtually nothing left here , there were half hearted attempts with little money to back them up so the writing was on the wall . When we hear about the people from Daf working wonders with the 680 1 thing springs to mind ,if they were so gifted why didnt they build their own engine block from scratch in the first place

[newmercman]

Ramone, as Saviem so rightly said, Daf owe their success in the UK to their DafAid service, not because their product was better than anything else

Go back in time to the late 70s, lorries were nowhere near as reliable as they are now (not counting the electronics ) the British manufacturers were up to their neck in labour problems, build quality was awful, part’s suppliers were unreliable at best, non existent at worse. It was well reported that Leyland were building chassis and storing them in fields because Lucas CAV were on strike and they had no starter motors So if you had a starter motor issue on a lorry on your fleet, it wasn’t getting fixed anytime soon The chassis coming down the line were not tested properly as they couldn’t start them up When the supply of starter motors did arrive, a couple of blokes were dispatched to the field and fitted them, you can bet that they never did a full PDI on those chassis, they went out the gate to the dealer/distributors as quickly as possible, so there were bound to be problems with those chassis

ERF, Foden and seddon Atkinson had the same supplier problems, their own workforces were not as militant as the BL workers, but they had problems of their own, especially at the recently merged Seddon Atkinson, the result was that there was a lot of reliabilty issues in British Built chassis

The Daf didn’t suffer from this so much, so they were ahead of the game there, but the thing that did them so much good was the response time and the availability of new parts when things did go boss eyed on a Daf lorry

Even then, Daf took years to become the giant that they are now, it took a number of things, firstly they took over the Leyland Truck Division, this allowed them to build chassis for the UK market, their rigid chassis are basically evolutions of the Leyland Roadrunner or Red Line range (Albions) or Scammells in the case of their multi wheeler range, mostly made in Britain to this day too

Daf were a small time player before the Leyland hook up