Bloody hell more meaning less rubbish Carryfast you can make statistics mean anything and our previous member is quite correct when saying it s up to the driver you re right Lawrence. On a motorway there is no substitute for horsepower but when you have nowadays speed limiters and most motors knocking out the same BHP. it does nt explain why driver A is trying to pass driver B at a fraction of an MPH quicker taking 10 miles or so to achieve his object simply bad driving and bad manners. Incidentally no DAF 2800 or 3300 Ati or otherwise ever ever passed my F89 the only ones that did were V8 SCANIAS. Goodnight Crow.
Lawrence Dunbar:
Well you do surprise me when you say that you have driven wagons, you certainley have something about the great Gardner Engine that bugs you, ive never come accross anyone that would call the Gardner the names that you do, so I suppose you are a unique person in your own field whatever that is .Regards Larry
On the “tether” grazing with the other Goats Larry,I think !! Dennis.
geoffthecrowtaylor:
Bloody hell more meaning less rubbish Carryfast you can make statistics mean anything and our previous member is quite correct when saying it s up to the driver you re right Lawrence. On a motorway there is no substitute for horsepower Incidentally no DAF 2800 or 3300 Ati or otherwise ever ever passed my F89 the only ones that did were V8 SCANIAS. Goodnight Crow.
The fact that on a motorway there is no substitute for horsepower is the point which I’ve been making.So if you set up a test route which only has a certain percentage of it’s route being motorway then it’s obvious that the horespower advantage won’t apply so much on the other types of road where object of trying to get the fastest average speed possible for the least possible outlay in fuel won’t apply to the same degree as a route which is around 80-90% motorway work. 
The fact is history shows that as being one of the main issues which applied in the case of the Gardner.It was an engine designed for the pre motorway era and ridiculously low speed limits that was out of it’s depth on the motorway routes of the 1970’s on.
I’ve actually driven a 2800 on numerous occasions that was built (by mistake) to 3300 spec.The average speeds which it was capable of,at least at up to 30 t gross type weights,aren’t printable here.There also seems to be someone on here who’s got experience of using the 3300 on the BRS Coca Cola contract 
.I’d doubt that an F89 would have even been able to keep it’s tail lights in view after about Slough running from London to Bristol and they were running (a lot) heavier than we were.
Cf, I read and contribute to this forum because I hope to share my interest with the other members, learn something from them and maybe pass some of my own meagre learning on. You seem to enjoy the exact opposite- is there anyone on here with whom you actually agree?
This is my attempt at creating a common ground: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=19445&start=240
Bewick:
Lawrence Dunbar:
Well you do surprise me when you say that you have driven wagons, you certainley have something about the great Gardner Engine that bugs you, ive never come accross anyone that would call the Gardner the names that you do, so I suppose you are a unique person in your own field whatever that is .Regards LarryOn the “tether” grazing with the other Goats Larry,I think !! Dennis.
Just think what that old Octo which you posted elsewhere would have gone like with a turbocharger on it. 
[zb]
anorak:
Cf, I read and contribute to this forum because I hope to share my interest with the other members, learn something from them and maybe pass some of my own meagre learning on. You seem to enjoy the exact opposite- is there anyone on here with whom you actually agree?This is my attempt at creating a common ground: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=19445&start=240
Fair enough zb.To sum up the issues which I’m trying to raise in a few easy points all I’m saying is that the British truck manufacturers were severely damaged by a customer base that was trying to cling on to an obsolete engine design.The praise that so many seem to think should be given to Gardner is actually more deserved in the case of Leyland’s 680 design.
Is that such a bad contention to be making on the Gardner topic.I don’t think so.
You do have a point there Carryfast, but that is only a small part of the Gardner story, yes they were soundly beaten by their rivals at the end, but what about the preceeding years
Gardner were at one point the premium engine builder in Britain, possibly the World, concentrating on the final few years is not being fair, nor does it give an accurate representation of the marque 
Yes mistakes were made by the boardroom, if they had to continued to innovate as they had at first, then Gardner engines would still be on most driver’s wish list
Take your beloved Detroit screamers as an example, they also were different to everything else on the market and they continued to stick to their guns, but their success was due to the fact that there was no foreign competition, rather than the engine design itself, Gardner never had the luxury of a closed market
Detroit only exists today because they were lucky enough to stumble upon the design of the 60 Series, if they had continued with the two strokes they would’ve been history. Added to the fact that they had investors who wanted them to succeed, rather than the ones Gardner had to endure and you can see that there are a lot of similarities between the two companies, unfortunately only one of them was saved from extinction, but even then it wasn’t saved by its designs, but by the decisions made in the boardroom
[zb]
anorak:
Cf, I read and contribute to this forum because I hope to share my interest with the other members, learn something from them and maybe pass some of my own meagre learning on. You seem to enjoy the exact opposite- is there anyone on here with whom you actually agree?This is my attempt at creating a common ground: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=19445&start=240
I particularily licked Sonia out of those pics anorak … just saying
newmercman:
You do have a point there Carryfast, but that is only a small part of the Gardner story, yes they were soundly beaten by their rivals at the end, but what about the preceeding yearsGardner were at one point the premium engine builder in Britain, possibly the World, concentrating on the final few years is not being fair, nor does it give an accurate representation of the marque
Yes mistakes were made by the boardroom, if they had to continued to innovate as they had at first, then Gardner engines would still be on most driver’s wish list
Take your beloved Detroit screamers as an example, they also were different to everything else on the market and they continued to stick to their guns, but their success was due to the fact that there was no foreign competition, rather than the engine design itself, Gardner never had the luxury of a closed market
Detroit only exists today because they were lucky enough to stumble upon the design of the 60 Series, if they had continued with the two strokes they would’ve been history.
As you can see I’ve been doing my best to avoid any reference or comparison with an unmentionable US engine manufacturer. 
Look at it objectively and with a harsh investor type view and Gardner’s products weren’t really much to write home about through the majority of it’s history.Either during peace time or wartime.I don’t think that they did a lot which AEC,Leyland,Rolls and others didn’t manage to arguably beat them or at least match them at.Go back to the post war years of the 1940’s/50’s and I think it was probably AEC ad Leyland which had them beat in most respects and it was AEC and Leyland powered wagons which would probably have been the preferred option of most drivers if not operators .
In most respects the Brit market has effectively been just as closed to US products as the US market has been to Brit ones and the euro and scandinavian competition wasn’t much,if any,of a factor during much of Gardner’s earlier history either.One thing is certain from at least the pre WW2 years to the 1970’s the US industry had more to offer uk and european customers than the Brits and europeans had to offer US ones so there was no threat to the American component manufacturers from us even if they’d have thrown open their market and we’d have done the same and as I’ve said during WW2 at least it was the US that had the better products most of the time,regarding trucks, and if our market been more open to those US products,from the point of view of customer demand,then you can bet that the uk market would probably have gone more along the line of the colonies than Europe and our truck manufacturing industry might have survived.
As for Detroit,just like CAT and ■■■■■■■■■■■ fact is they didn’t get where they are now by making products throughout their history that weren’t up to the job and at the forefront of development in terms of power outputs and reliability while being efficient enough to make them economically viable over massive distances,often difficult terrain,absolutely bonkers weather conditions,and long periods of running time both in hours and miles.But you already know that.
And as I’ve said it was arguably a Leyland design which proved itself a better bet in general mainstream commercial vehicle applications than any Gardner one during the later years.
Evening all, well here I am, sitting in my filthy overalls, completly knackered after yet another 15hour day, and Ive had to stop the combine because its so b… wet, just done a note for [ZB], on the Euro Mack thread, had a quick glance on here… poured a large chilled Bollinger, and cannot drink it for laughing!!!
I started this thread to see what people thought, recalled, liked, hated ,about Gardner engines. Boy, I never expected it to get here!! Great contributions from cav551, [ZB], nmm, lawrence d, Dennis, and more hysterical from dear old CF!!
I am too tired, (and probably old) to really enter the fray, but a couple of comments on previous posts. Regarding Road Tests, and specificately those conducted by my old friend Pat Kennet. I am not cogniscent of the ones that cav551, and [ZB] refer to, and have no point of reference, as (sadly), I have very few, very very few “old” Truck magazines, and no time to refer to them !
When the 36.280 was created for the UK market, it was a hybrid, of the lightweight 32.240, naturally aspirated Saviem, fitted with the Turbo 2156 MAN engine, no one at Blainville ever realised what a potentialy succesful vehicle this could have been. It was light, “driveable”, (ZF 6.680. 12 speed splitter, and a mid ratio 13332 Saviem reduction axle). Much more a performance machine than the French domestic 38.280. And a real delightful “drive”, with a real turbo whistle!! Sadly the UK lacked the “on the ground” Dealer network to maximise its potential.But she was economic, and very light as a sleeper cab tractor unit.
I stand to be corrected, but I think Saviem UK had a 36ft Peak Tandem with fixed 21tons of concrete ballast. I have no idea what trailer would have gone behind the, (lardy arsed), Berliet, but those early TR280, 266hp maxi couple Berliets could cover a surprising amount of ground , very quickly and quietly! (but they were not a featherlight old girl)!! The ERFs, what can we say, always good always consistent, well engineered, well braked, and very comfortable. One of my Swiss friends still goes “misty eyed” over his ■■■■■■■ powered B series! And no mistake, Sandbach`s Foden latter product was a “good un”"
Catergorically, let me assure you all, that of all the “roadtesters”, Pat was perhaps the most impartial. His standards were impeccable, and unlike many of his contemporaries, his driving skills were very high indeed! One day , perhaps I should write a little about "journalistic roadtesters that I have encountered ", believe me Gentlemen, some of Europes, well suffice to say, they would not have met Pats standards, let alone John D-S, Jon Barras, “the mad monk”, Graham Montgomery, or, (cruncher), Mike Cunningham! And I have not touched on M Pascal Stich, Delmare, Rossenberg, Muntouche et al.
And as for the ethics of road testing, and the procedures, may I refer you to our learned friend Newmercman, (whose comment on selling lorries is so pertinent), who I am sure would confirm my own knowledge that any attempt to “influence” road test results would be very, oh very counter productive, if not fatal for a manufacturers image!!! No [ZB], there never ever was any conspiracy, you have to look for another reason for any anomalies!!
My Bollingers getting warm, my teas in the AGA, and I need a shower, but CF, thank you for making me laugh so much!! Please Gentlemen let us remember just how good our Gardner products really were!! (even if tommorow I shall be sitting behind one of John Deeres finest), Bon nuit mes braves, Cheerio for now.
1974, and the TL12 powered Leyland Marathon smashed the Commercial Motor road test overall time record by a considerable margin, (Almost 2 hours if I remember correctly). Unfortunately I have disposed of all my records and material, but maybe one of the informed contributors on here could dig out the figures. Just thought I’d lob this particular hand grenade into the argument.
You re quite right Carryfast your DAF would nt have been able to have seen the taillights of the 89 Iknow you meant it the other way round but as you ve more than likely never even sat in an 89 much less driven one, the steering wheel on the wrong side and having to use your right hand to change gear instead of what you use it for would have totally confused you .I am aware Gents that this is a Gardner site but as a life long Volvo fan which your mate Pat Kennet was nt NMM i ve just had to shove this bit in . Incidentally for your info Carryfast the Italian spec 89s were 360 bhp, more horses because they used a Sigma injection pump as opposed to the Bosch. Good hunting, Crow.
I’ve never driven a 2800 daf only the later 85/95 cf/xf types and have always found them to be gutless compared to other makes with similar outputs.
My point wasnt how bad 2800 Dafs were i quite liked them but how good the 320 Gardner powered Foden was that i drove
Carryfast:
Firstly the 2800 could be specced with different levels of output.However,at equivalent weights which is the important bit (how much load was there actually on the trailers),there’s no way that a motor with less power and torque can ‘run away’ from one with more.I don’t think that any version of the 2800 had less power and torque than the 240 GardnerHowever if you’d have said that it ran away from a 2300 then just about anything could have managed that.
Carryfast,take the blinklers off and the earplugs out for a moment.
I was there,I watched the tail lights of the Gardner powered SA400 pulling away from the 2800.
They were both loaded and the driver not used to the motor was the one in the SED Atki as wed been DAF for a good few years. As for the remark about the 2300,more drivel from the master.The fastest motor in our fleet was a 2300 reg OWG 26M.Only thing wrong with the 2300s was lack of stopping power.
Time you stopped reading books and got out a bit more.
Good for you Gridders,my mate Jack Richardson drove a 2800 after his stint as an od and with only half the weight on that I had could nt keep up with Ragnar the 89,if you wanted to you could shove these flying machines up to 75 mph and never use Aberdeen overdrive. Crow.
geoffthecrowtaylor:
…the Italian spec 89s were 360 bhp, more horses because they used a Sigma injection pump as opposed to the Bosch. Good hunting, Crow.
I did not know this. I always wondered how non-Italian manufacturers got their lower-powered engines past the Italian 352bhp minimum. Thanks Crow.
One may only speculate as to the reasons why Gardner did not have an engine in its range, suitable to attack that lucrative market…
Isuppose Anorak that in the very odd case Carryfast is right Gardners did nt move with the times,a bit more research and application would no doubt have paid dividends. Don t forget we re not into intercoolers yet the first F12s had a TD 120c same power output as TD 120a just played about with a bit oil cooled pistons etc with the advent of intercoolers 380 bhp it really is amazing the difference intercoolers made regards Crow.
Its amazing really just how many british companies didnt move with the times ,not just Gardner and theyve all gone,whether it was lack of investment or stubborn ,youll get what your given attitude .But its not just the lorry manufacturers weve sold everything that wasnt nailed down ,the steel industry ,gas,water,electricity all sold off the foreigners must love us .Were just lucky that we compensate are crap winters with long hot summers so we can grow things here …
Saviem:
Catergorically, let me assure you all, that of all the “roadtesters”, Pat was perhaps the most impartial. His standards were impeccable, and unlike many of his contemporaries, his driving skills were very high indeed! One day , perhaps I should write a little about "journalistic roadtesters that I have encountered ", believe me Gentlemen, some of Europes, well suffice to say, they would not have met Pats standards, let alone John D-S, Jon Barras, “the mad monk”, Graham Montgomery, or, (cruncher), Mike Cunningham! And I have not touched on M Pascal Stich, Delmare, Rossenberg, Muntouche et al.And as for the ethics of road testing, and the procedures, may I refer you to our learned friend Newmercman, (whose comment on selling lorries is so pertinent), who I am sure would confirm my own knowledge that any attempt to “influence” road test results would be very, oh very counter productive, if not fatal for a manufacturers image!!! No [ZB], there never ever was any conspiracy, you have to look for another reason for any anomalies!!
My Bollingers getting warm, my teas in the AGA, and I need a shower, but CF, thank you for making me laugh so much!! Please Gentlemen let us remember just how good our Gardner products really were!! (even if tommorow I shall be sitting behind one of John Deeres finest), Bon nuit mes braves, Cheerio for now.
gingerfold:
1974, and the TL12 powered Leyland Marathon smashed the Commercial Motor road test overall time record by a considerable margin, (Almost 2 hours if I remember correctly). Unfortunately I have disposed of all my records and material, but maybe one of the informed contributors on here could dig out the figures. Just thought I’d lob this particular hand grenade into the argument.
Even if we accept that the journalists were trying to do an honest job, this does not disqualify them from having the wool pulled over their eyes by the manufacturers. Who knows what Mr. Stokes’ gang of villains had done to the engine of that Marathon? Might it have been something as simple as the Leyland salesman instructing the magazine man to drive the lorry hard, because they wanted it to be seen as fast rather than frugal?
I remember, when the E320 Roadtrain was launched, one of the comics reporting that its performance was comparable with a 141. Could the press vehicle, perchance, have been fitted with an E370? On the subject of 141s, when Truck Magazine put one through their Eurotest, they remarked upon uncharacteristic engine behaviour. If my memory serves me well, it came out close to the top of their productivity table.
If nothing else, the vehicles presented for test were usually meticulously prepared by their maker’s press garage, ostensibly to ensure that they were “within spec”. Those Fuel Duel ERFs all had their cab/trailer gaps reduced to the bare minimum, and were handed to operators with well-worn tyres, to reduce rolling resistance. Some drivers reported that they ran slow on the motorway- if their speed limiters were calibrated on fresh rubber, the worn tyres would give a 3% lower top speed, on the limiter. The limiter itself could have been set to the lower end of the tolerance band (+/-2%, was it?). This could be masked by calibrating the tachograph towards the top end of its own tolerance band. Of course they gave good fuel consumption.
I get the impression that Truck Magazine’s technical staff were no match for the armies of engineers in the manufacturers’ workshops. CM had a bit more lead in its pencil (at least, it used to), judging by the letters after the names of its technical writers. That German magazine uses a rolling road dyno.
Maybe if Gardner had exercised a bit more influence over the vehicles presented for press appraisals, the 8LXB Atki would have been equipped with a higher axle ratio?