Gardner ENGINES

What was it that finished off Gardner in the eyes of its customers?

Primarily it must have been the attitude of the company’s management. To have taken the stance: “customers must have what is on offer rather than what they want” - is suicide or rather ought to be, but regrettably even today, so few companies seem to take this into account. To have compounded this with what unfortunately became an expensive inferior product sealed their fate.

For a while some of the customers will put up with having to take a product which does not fulfill all their requirements. Some will put up with something they see as cheap and nasty, simply because it is cheap. But what very few will put up with is a product that not only does not meet their requirements, but has now become expensive and nasty. This is what Gardner’s management succeeded so well in doing.

What the strike was all about I can’t remember, but it and the consequences can’t all have been the union’s fault. The company had a highly skilled workforce; somehow the value of this must have been underestimated, consequent in the company’s long term demise.

What other factors led to the closure?

A much larger worldwide engine supplier, ■■■■■■■■ with an enormous potential home market behind it; who curiously had also experienced their own difficulties in supplying what the customer really wanted; not only got it right in terms of specification, but launched a very successful marketing campaign based on their ability to challenge and now beat Gardner in their own backyard, on the two bulwarks of Gardner’s renowned reputation: fuel economy and longevity. ■■■■■■■ were now offering an engine that continued in its tradition of producing more power, but furthermore could, for all intents and purposes, match it for economy, while at the same time exceeding Gardner’s 400,000 mile overhaul life by some 50%. All that remained to do was to ensure that the lorry manufacturers offered it for sale at a price which would attract orders. As things turned out they didn’t need to sell it cheap — Gardner did the job for them and demanded a premium for their engine. And just to make life easier for ■■■■■■■■ their own product didn’t last as long as it formerly had.

At the same time ■■■■■■■ launched a totally new engine aimed directly at Gardner’s one remaining strength — weight. The 10 litre LT10 was not only considerably smaller than Gardner’s big engine, but it was also the same weight and slightly smaller than Gardner’s product for its one remaining ■■■■■■■■■■ in the automotive market; the bus engine. With a bit more development ■■■■■■■ was able to challenge Gardner’s last gasp behemoth LYT for the maximum weight HGV with the same compact engine.

During all of this parliament finally listened to the haulage industry and increased dual carriageway speed limits to 50 mph. At a stroke, gone was Gardner’s one remaining trump card, its light load fuel economy; the one factor that the other manufacturers found so hard to factor into their equations.

The British manufacturers were very much of the same mindset as Gardner and refused to acknowledge the quality of their European based competitors’ products — a fact which eventually also saw ■■■■■■■ withdraw from Europe owing to lack of demand for their flagship product.

When about the same time, the maximum overall weight limit was increased to 38 tonnes, Gardner was left without a product ready for sale and so, almost, were the British commercial vehicle builders.

So why did Gardner lose its reputation?

With a product that could now be matched for economy, longevity was its one remaining strength. Now, on top of a woeful deterioration of quality control, to a certain extent fate turned against it. Fleets were now operating a variety of competing machines. Hauliers understood that the two stroke engines required different oil, but in many instances failed to ensure that the unblown Gardner also had its favourite monograde oil. It did not like anything else. At the same time the availability of mechanic’s training courses for Gardner engines was not on a par with that of ■■■■■■■ or anyone else, so the importance of some of Gardner’s idiosyncratic and time consuming requirements became more frequently overlooked.

At the same time the oil companies stopped providing diesel with a cetane value of 50 and then introduced low sulphur fuel; neither measure to the improvement of fuel economy or the life of fuel injection equipment. All the engine manufacturers suffered, but it was not such a pillar of reputation to all.

Just to help with the final nails, along came the environment lobby. The Gardner engine and its now essential Fuller gearbox were too noisy and the intended emission standards could not be met by a naturally aspirated engine. Even the bus market was now threatened.

The market for the engine and vehicle manufacturers was not the only one undergoing a transformation. Previous medium size family run haulage companies were being bought out by large conglomerates which were then becoming the dominant force along with their buying power. Haulage companies needed to operate maximum capacity vehicles, which required new larger yards. Those hauliers that remained needed to be nearer to the motorway network and away from their previous village locations. The volume users of transport were now able to flex their muscles to a greater extent than had previously been the case. Just-in-time and 24 hour deliveries became the norm. Encouraged by the planners and listening to public complaints about “juggernauts destroying villages”, ribbon development was encouraged alongside motorways.

The purchasing market was now in the hands of fewer, but larger companies who now employed fleet engineers to spec their vehicles. Proper qualifications in ‘logistics’ had now become recognised along with a requirement for “qualified” transport managers. Now it was no longer ‘the guv’nor who ran the show, but the accountant who said: “lease the vehicles”. What was now required was basically a “motorway charger” that was expected to operate 24/7 for three years rather than the 7 to 10 year life expected before. Vehicles were no longer overhauled for a second lease of life; they were thrown away in favour of the latest product.

Six cylinder vacuum cleaners were now the requirement. Only one engine remained for a short while true to its roots until it was replaced by Paccar — the DAF developed 680 which at least sounded like a diesel engine; but it didn’t scream like it used to any more!

Turn up the volume.

youtube.com/watch?v=FVE8s5aX … re=related

Hello again cav551, I will add something to your analysis above. Gardner’s production volume in the 1960s and '70s was about 5,000 engines per annum, which was about the same as that of the Scania DS14 V8 in the 1970s and '80s. I don’t know how many 8 and 11 litre engines Scania used to build, but I’ll bet Saviem’s farm that their sales far exceeded those of the 14 litre. Scania could, off the back of this business, afford an R&D budget many times greater than Gardner’s. It is, therefore, no surprise that they were able to overtake Gardner in terms of the performance and durability of their products.

Scania Vabis’ (and others) good sense was to invest in increasing their sales in markets outside their home market, during the 1950s and '60s. This commitment to their future was in contrast to Gardner’s contentment to concentrate (mainly) on the UK market. Like all of their British counterparts, Gardner put short-term profit ahead of long-term expansion.

cav551, very good post :wink:

The roadtest has been mentioned and there are some things I can add to that. At the time I was involved, I can honestly say that no instruction was given by the manufacturer’s represenatative, we discussed things before setting off so that we knew how to get the best from each lorry, so for example we would find out whether it was best to let it lug or drop half a gear and get the rpms up a little on a long pull, nothing underhand, as testers we were supposed to be among the better drivers out there, so getting the lorry to run at its optimum was our job. In all the tests I did, I can honestly say the only thing that we did that I wouldn’t do as a regular driver was to run with the A/C off on a hot day.

During a test match, we would swap drivers for each different section, this removed any driver variables, although the three of us at TRUCK at that time were very similar in our driving styles, in fact one of the manufacturers represenatatives remarked that the only way to tell which one of us had been doing the test would be to check the position of the driver’s seat.

There have been, over the years, some shenanigans from the manufacturers. Things like handbuilt, blueprinted engines and the like, but even then, you could just as easily buy two identical models, one, often referred to as a Friday Afternoon Build would be an absolute dog, the second could have every manufacturing tolerance in its favour and be a dream lorry, so in itself, that isn’t a crime.

There were instances where false panels were welded into fuel tanks and opened up once the test started, so the amount of diesel added at the end to check mpg would be less than it had actually used, but we had calibrated flow meters to combat that. We also checked the calibration of speedometers with a stopwatch and a measured mile, any inaccuracies were eliminated by a complicated formula (which I couldn’t tell you for the life of me)

Manufacturers did supply us with well run in engines, that had been fettled to ensure that everything was running at its very best, all the lubricants would be low viscosity, the tyres would be low rolling resistance which were inflated properly and worn down to further help the free rolling, they made sure that the aerodynamic equipment was adjusted to its optimum levels, nothing wrong with that as far as I’m concerned, the same things should be done by anyone operating a lorry, if they want the maximum return on their considerable investment.

I once did a road test with Fernfahrer Trucker Magazine, as has been said, the Germans are very meticulous, they use their own fuel tanks on the lorries, the temperature and weight of the fuel is checked, there really are no variables at all, the fuel figures we achieved from a specific lorry on the flat out (limited) motorway sections on that test were almost the same as the fuel figures I got from the same model lorry on the TRUCK roadtest, the slightly lower figure I got in the UK was due to an extra axle and a bit more weight, but it goes to show that a lorry will achieve a certain mpg figure if it’s driven correctly, no matter how particular you are.

Gridley51:

Carryfast:
Firstly the 2800 could be specced with different levels of output.However,at equivalent weights which is the important bit (how much load was there actually on the trailers),there’s no way that a motor with less power and torque can ‘run away’ from one with more.I don’t think that any version of the 2800 had less power and torque than the 240 Gardner :question: .

However if you’d have said that it ran away from a 2300 then just about anything could have managed that. :open_mouth: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Carryfast,take the blinklers off and the earplugs out for a moment.
I was there,I watched the tail lights of the Gardner powered SA400 pulling away from the 2800.
They were both loaded and the driver not used to the motor was the one in the SED Atki as wed been DAF for a good few years. As for the remark about the 2300,more drivel from the master.The fastest motor in our fleet was a 2300 reg OWG 26M.Only thing wrong with the 2300s was lack of stopping power.
Time you stopped reading books and got out a bit more.

You’ve obviously never driven a 2300 up a decent hill even at less than 32 t gross :open_mouth: and/or that comment,about it being the fastest on your fleet,maybe says everything about what you were comparing it with and as I’ve said ironically the 2800 was made in lower power specs and no surprise that given the choice of a lower powered or more powerful wagon you can bet that most of the Brit guvnors of the time would go for a lower powered option.But the 2300 wasn’t available in 1973 the 2100 and 2300 were introduced in 1982 and I should know because I wasted enough time climbing hills that the 2800 flew up with an X reg one on our fleet VJX 531X if I remember the number right but unlike the memorable FNH 958T the 2300 was a forgettable heap. :smiling_imp: :unamused:

Oh Dear, more ■■■■■■■■ from C/F, I think he must run on Duracells, that goon never gives up, but he is good for a laugh at least, that is if one is stuck for something to laugh at, Regards Larry.

geoffthecrowtaylor:
You re quite right Carryfast your DAF would nt have been able to have seen the taillights of the 89 Iknow you meant it the other way round but as you ve more than likely never even sat in an 89 much less driven one, the steering wheel on the wrong side and having to use your right hand to change gear instead of what you use it for would have totally confused you .I am aware Gents that this is a Gardner site but as a life long Volvo fan which your mate Pat Kennet was nt NMM i ve just had to shove this bit in . Incidentally for your info Carryfast the Italian spec 89s were 360 bhp, more horses because they used a Sigma injection pump as opposed to the Bosch. Good hunting, Crow.

I drove left hookers as road sweepers let alone the centre drive fire trucks which I drove before then which had a ‘bit’ more power than any Volvo commercial during the 1970’s and probably most even now and if the F89 was that good the Italians wouldn’t ever have bothered with the V8 Fiat or the other unmentionable 400 hp beast that I only knew as a four wheeler drawbar prime mover spec fire engine and that would have been just as fast wether it’s wheel was on the left or the right. :open_mouth: :smiling_imp: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

But if you think that Gardners were so good why weren’t you driving an SA powered by one instead of an overstressed Volvo heap with a small cab on it. :open_mouth: :smiling_imp: :laughing:

A 2300 Daf is about as close to recreating the Gardner driving experience as any other lorry I’ve driven, the non intercooled ones wouldn’t pull a greasy stick out of a dog’s arse, they were light drinkers if they weren’t running too heavy, but they were definitely a boy in a man’s world :open_mouth:

Pound for pound I would take a motor with a Gardner over a 2300 Daf, at least then I could have some brakes and half the air leaks :laughing:

cav551:
What was it that finished off Gardner in the eyes of its customers?

Primarily it must have been the attitude of the company’s management. To have taken the stance: “customers must have what is on offer rather than what they want” - is suicide or rather ought to be, but regrettably even today, so few companies seem to take this into account. Only one engine remained for a short while true to its roots until it was replaced by Paccar — the DAF developed 680 which at least sounded like a diesel engine; but it didn’t scream like it used to any more!

Turn up the volume.

youtube.com/watch?v=FVE8s5aX … re=related

It was the fact that the manufacturers were actually producing exactly what the customer wanted that was the problem.

Surprisingly the DAF development of the 680 sounded very similar to it’s origins sometimes but it certainly can’t be described as a screaming sound.It’s actually one of the best sounding 4 stroke motors ever.It’s just that in the Routeman it’s in a fibreglas cab without any decent sound insulation and lumbered with natural aspiration and a wide ratio box.So it’s short of torque and therefore needs to be taken too high up the rev range in each gear before upshifting it.

Carryfast what a total load of cognones as the Italians would say to compare an ■■■■■■ road sweeper with a truck of the line beggars belief . Ipersonally never drove a SED AK, Gardner ■■■■■■■ or elastic band powered, you stick with your screaming heebie jeebies or blown Leyland engines and when you wake up in the morning in the back seat of your Trabant or Bond minicar look in the mirror and try to discover where it all went wrong.Crow.

newmercman:
A 2300 Daf is about as close to recreating the Gardner driving experience as any other lorry I’ve driven, the non intercooled ones wouldn’t pull a greasy stick out of a dog’s arse, they were light drinkers if they weren’t running too heavy, but they were definitely a boy in a man’s world :open_mouth:

Pound for pound I would take a motor with a Gardner over a 2300 Daf, at least then I could have some brakes and half the air leaks :laughing:

^+1/2 (Almost that’s a bit like saying would you prefer the firing squad or beheading)
:open_mouth:

Ours were intercooled. :open_mouth: :laughing:

There really has got to be something special about that DAF compressor for so many air valves to fail.

geoffthecrowtaylor:
Carryfast what a total load of cognones as the Italians would say to compare an ■■■■■■ road sweeper with a truck of the line beggars belief . Ipersonally never drove a SED AK, Gardner ■■■■■■■ or elastic band powered, you stick with your screaming heebie jeebies or blown Leyland engines and when yoy wake up in the morning in the back seat of your Trabant or Bond minicar look in the mirror and try to discover where it all went wrong.Crow.

A bit like comparing a V8 Fiat or it’s American/British rival with an F89 then.No surprise I never once saw or drove an F89 fire truck because they wouldn’t have been up to the job just like the F12 when we tried the chassis and sent it back and that was empty without even a body let alone built with a full tank of water. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

Christ almighty you really are on a different planet are nt you pal we re still not talking about ■■■■■■ fire engines grow up go and get out Trumpton and start again we re not even talking about massive 17 litre v8 marine engines converted to road use where they were about as much good as a chocolate fire guard get in your cot ■■■■ your thumb if you can reach it read yourself a bed time story and try and chill out. I hear there is free space in your local mortuary. Night night Crow.

Carryfast:
But the 2300 wasn’t available in 1973 the 2100 and 2300 were introduced in 1982 and I should know

As you have proved so many times,you dont know anything.I was working on M reg 2300s in the early seventies.
If you have more in your wallet than what`s in your head,you can have a small bet on it.

I owned two of those Italian V8s, very good engines, reliable, plenty of power and reasonable thirsts considering what they were capable of, which was mostly embarrasing 143 Scania drivers in the mountains :sunglasses:

Mt old man had a 170-35 once, that would leave the Paddys in their 141s in its wake going up the M6, and Daf 2800s, they were long gone before it got into high range :sunglasses:

An M reg Daf would be a 2200 surely Gridley :question: The 2300 never came out until 75/76 as I remember :question:

You’ve got to hand it to “Carryfast”,he gets more stick than an American Army Mule,but he still comes back for more,"go on my Son,gee up there!!"Bewick.

geoffthecrowtaylor:
we re not even talking about massive 17 litre v8 marine engines converted to road use

:confused: :unamused:

I thought we were just arguing about wether driving an overstressed left ■■■■■■ with a zb cab (which is why they had to redesign the whole zb wagon and start again :smiling_imp: :laughing: ) is the definition of what makes a driver.It’s not my fault if driving a 10 ft wide almost 40 ft long 38 tonner rigid with a 18 litre V16 (not V8 so you’ve got that bit wrong)and although it was centre drive not left or right which made things a bit interesting going through Feltham town centre,it was actually semi auto and it’s gear shift was actually on the right.Which is why that road sweeper wasn’t really much of a problem after that. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

Carryfast:

geoffthecrowtaylor:
we re not even talking about massive 17 litre v8 marine engines converted to road use

:confused: :unamused:

I thought we were just arguing about wether driving an overstressed left ■■■■■■ with a zb cab (which is why they had to redesign the whole zb wagon and start again :smiling_imp: :laughing: ) is the definition of what makes a driver.It’s not my fault if driving a 10 ft wide almost 40 ft long 38 tonner rigid with a 18 litre V16 (not V8 so you’ve got that bit wrong)and although it was centre drive not left or right which made things a bit interesting going through Feltham town centre,it was actually semi auto and it’s gear shift was actually on the right.Which is why that road sweeper wasn’t really much of a problem after that. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

And with you sat behind the wheel of that monstrosity “CF”,I would say you could term it “Full House”,pity there are no photos to record the event!! How many cars did you crush,and did that Bus queue manage to get out of the way before you flattened the shelter ? Cheers Bewick.

If that had happened would it have been called ‘dropping a boat anchor’ ?

newmercman:
An M reg Daf would be a 2200 surely Gridley :question: The 2300 never came out until 75/76 as I remember :question:

I think it was the 2200 that came later.We had 2300s and 2800s and I think one 2600 which went soon after I had started there.
They would be 73 reg as I think the index letter went the whole year in those days.I cant remember the 2800 regs as we new them by the first three letters but definitely Ns.