ERF 'European' (1975)

Saviem:
In the early days Pat drove everything himself, but he drove EXACTLY as the factory personnel told him to! Not as he would perhaps have chosen to. He drove to extract the best combination of performance and economy from the vehicle, just as the men that built it told him! As an aside I was present and involved at goodness knows how many road tests with European Journals. Some of the driving standards left a lot to be desired, certainly for this ex Shropshire lorry driver, and on more than one occasion closed my eyes and thought of England!!!

Saviem, I was re-reading your fabulous eulogy of Pat Kennett, following my posting of his EuroTest to TRUCK back in January. I have only quoted a fraction of your whole piece, above. But it reminds me that my preference for lorries like the ERF NGC ‘European’ reflects my now very dated driving-style and my incurable forty-five year habit of double-declutching even in synchromesh vehicles (which never impresses company driver-assessors these days!). Back in the ‘sixties I actually learnt to double-declutch on a piano, using the pedals provided, with an ancient AA manual propped on the music stand, before finally putting my new-found skills to the test in a borrowed Morris Minor. Whoever said the young are not resourceful? In the late nineties, TRUCK magazine invited me to apply for the post of staff Truck Tester. The interview went reasonably well because the magazine was already routinely publishing my Long-Distance Diaries and all sorts of other articles I was churning out in those days. The test drive, conducted by no less than the editor-in-chief, George Bennett and the Senior DAF Driver Richard Kingston, proved to be my downfall. I must emphasise that it was all a very gentlemanly and civilised experience, of course, but they were quite right: I drove their DAF 85 demonstrator as it were a B-series ERF and my driving style proved simply too archaic. Of course I would never claim that this style is any better than the modern styles, just different; but I prefer it. It’s a matter of ‘horses for courses’ and one should really drive a synchromesh truck like a car, but I don’t. As it was, Jack Semple, who chaired the interview, recognised that I clearly had an awful lot of bursting energy to do some serious long-haul work before I settled down to anything as routine as truck testing. And he was right because I went on to do Middle-East and North Africa driving instead. I must say, my visits to see Dave Young, Dean Styles, Jack Semple, George Bennett and Andy Salter in ‘Slurry House’ (as the Farmers Weekly blokes used to call it) were very welcoming, enjoyable experiences and although my period of truck journalism tailed off and ceased, I have happy memories of the work. Robert :slight_smile:

I had Mssrs Salter and Weatherley along for the ride on my test drive interview. Luckily I was in a 6 wheeler Volvo FH12, the test trailer had been set up for a four wheeler and the weight was biased towards the rear, I remarked on that as we pulled out of the gate at Warwick and judging by the look they shared that got me the job.

My first ‘job’ was to impress Richard Kingston, who is a very tough nut to crack, again I did something right as he gave me the nod and I was a fully fledged road tester.

My first feature was on the new turbo compound Scania and again I had a daunting task as the factory driver on the lorry I chose was Scania’s top man, Christer. I got him as I was the new kid on the block and all the other testers were watching me, especially Steev Hayes of Trucking mag as I had kicked his arse at pool the night before, anyway my thought was to show this rabble what I could do, so I picked an A frame wagon and drag as my test lorry, I’d recently been driving a 143 wagon and drag for an Italian firm, so was very comfortable with the set up both forwards and backwards, I must have done something right there too as Christer was fast asleep when we got back to the RV point.

It’s a shame you never got to do it Robert as it is without doubt the highlight of my lorry career so far.

It has an ERF twist too, I had a row with their man Trevor Longcroft as he wanted to do a test match in a single day, rather than the usual two, it would’ve meant me getting up at 2am to do everything and I told him I wouldn’t get up at 2am to drive a gold plated Scania, so I definitely wouldn’t do it to drive a poxy ERF, he had a complete sense of humour failure and I was persona non grata at Sandbach from that point on.

As a footnote Craig Sheer did the test and that ‘poxy’ ERF broke the record around the test route for economy and productivity, me and my big mouth :laughing:

I enjoyed your post there, NMM. If you got that job in spring '97 it’s likely that you got the job instead of me! :laughing: And good luck to you, mate: glad you enjoyed it. I’m certainly glad I followed my ‘itchy feet’! Robert :smiley:

I did both Robert, my itchy feet just got put on hold for a while.

En-Tour-Age:
I have been told the ‘new’
grille (perhaps an idea of P.C. de Jong when visiting CDB and noticing the Scania LB-front) was a must to
have the NTC335 installed…

Hello Alexander. I’m intrigued by your comments here (from an earlier post). Like you, I wonder why ERF didn’t adapt the 5MW cab for tilting and upgrading. I have already suggested that this was probably a ‘fashion’ decision. It would be nice to go back and ask Jack Cook what was behind his thinking. But you have suggested that Peter de Jong might have influenced Jack’s thinking when he emulated the Scania LB front end. I would love to hear more about this. Peter de Jong was clearly a very powerful and influential force in the Dutch transport sector and was largely responsible for ERF’s initial success on the Continent. Do you know anything more about his possible insistence on the Scania look-alike frontal appearance of the 7MW? It would help us to understand more clearly why the NGC ended up looking like it did!

And who knows? He may have been right: because both 5MW and 7MW were sold side by side and the 7MW seems to have been more popular… Robert

7992268580_9a7feb127a_z.jpg

robert1952:

En-Tour-Age:
I have been told the ‘new’
grille (perhaps an idea of P.C. de Jong when visiting CDB and noticing the Scania LB-front) was a must to
have the NTC335 installed…

Hello Alexander. I’m intrigued by your comments here (from an earlier post). Like you, I wonder why ERF didn’t adapt the 5MW cab for tilting and upgrading. I have already suggested that this was probably a ‘fashion’ decision. It would be nice to go back and ask Jack Cook what was behind his thinking. But you have suggested that Peter de Jong might have influenced Jack’s thinking when he emulated the Scania LB front end. I would love to hear more about this. Peter de Jong was clearly a very powerful and influential force in the Dutch transport sector and was largely responsible for ERF’s initial success on the Continent. Do you know anything more about his possible insistence on the Scania look-alike frontal appearance of the 7MW? It would help us to understand more clearly why the NGC ended up looking like it did!

And who knows? He may have been right: because both 5MW and 7MW were sold side by side and the 7MW seems to have been more popular… Robert

0

Hey Robert, A bit of thread, but we said the same here as DAF came with the 2800. They mimic the F89 to atract customes.
But did they■■? I think that a development takes longer as 3 years as the 89 was only three years before the 2800.
My opinion only.

Cheers Eric,

robert1952:

En-Tour-Age:
I have been told the ‘new’
grille (perhaps an idea of P.C. de Jong when visiting CDB and noticing the Scania LB-front) was a must to
have the NTC335 installed…

Hello Alexander. I’m intrigued by your comments here (from an earlier post). Like you, I wonder why ERF didn’t adapt the 5MW cab for tilting and upgrading. I have already suggested that this was probably a ‘fashion’ decision. It would be nice to go back and ask Jack Cook what was behind his thinking. But you have suggested that Peter de Jong might have influenced Jack’s thinking when he emulated the Scania LB front end. I would love to hear more about this. Peter de Jong was clearly a very powerful and influential force in the Dutch transport sector and was largely responsible for ERF’s initial success on the Continent. Do you know anything more about his possible insistence on the Scania look-alike frontal appearance of the 7MW? It would help us to understand more clearly why the NGC ended up looking like it did!

And who knows? He may have been right: because both 5MW and 7MW were sold side by side and the 7MW seems to have been more popular… Robert

0

The NTC335 was fitted in 4 and 5MV/W chassis, was it not? The LB front panel was not a necessary modification to accommodate that engine. If the 7MW outsold the 5MW, it would have been due to its superior functional design- it had a lower engine hump for the driver and it tilted for the fitter. The Scania-copy styling was just that- styling.

It is only my opinion, but I think the glass fibre moulding process gave amateur stylists too much freedom, IE the physical limitations of presswork actually forced the designers to produce more agreeable shapes. Either that or the cost of the press tools made the wages of a decent stylist less significant, as a proportion of the total cost.

[zb]
anorak:
The NTC335 was fitted in 4 and 5MV/W chassis, was it not? The LB front panel was not a necessary modification to accommodate that engine. If the 7MW outsold the 5MW, it would have been due to its superior functional design- it had a lower engine hump for the driver and it tilted for the fitter. The Scania-copy styling was just that- styling.

It is only my opinion, but I think the glass fibre moulding process gave amateur stylists too much freedom, IE the physical limitations of presswork actually forced the designers to produce more agreeable shapes. Either that or the cost of the press tools made the wages of a decent stylist less significant, as a proportion of the total cost.

I agree. I’m glad you reminded us that the big 335 ■■■■■■■ fitted both - I did earlier mention that the boxy front end could not really be counted as an excuse for accommodating the 335. And I agree that the Scania copy was just styling: ie a fashion issue, nothing more. Robert :slight_smile:

Ah-ha! I’ve been ferreting round, looking for where this silly idea about the boxy front end being there to accommodate the 335. I found the culprit: me! In my appraisal of the 7MW cab I wrote: ‘ERF’s 7MW cab stood much higher than the older 5MW at 2972 mm and had a protruding front grille, the better to accommodate that big ■■■■■■■ NTC 335.’

This is misleading. I said ‘the better’ to accommodate, not ‘to accommodate’ - in other words, the bigger cab gave EVEN more room for the engine. But I should should have been much clearer, or just left the whole unnecessary comment out altogether!

Cheers Anorak! Robert :laughing:

robert1952:
Ah-ha! I’ve been ferreting round, looking for where this silly idea about the boxy front end being there to accommodate the 335. I found the culprit: me! In my appraisal of the 7MW cab I wrote: ‘ERF’s 7MW cab stood much higher than the older 5MW at 2972 mm and had a protruding front grille, the better to accommodate that big ■■■■■■■ NTC 335.’

This is misleading. I said ‘the better’ to accommodate, not ‘to accommodate’ - in other words, the bigger cab gave EVEN more room for the engine. But I should should have been much clearer, or just left the whole unnecessary comment out altogether!

Cheers Anorak! Robert :laughing:

God only knows why the front panel was made to protrude so much. Maybe ERF’s engineers considered cooling to be marginal with the 335 under the fixed Motor Panels cabs, so gave themselves the facility to put a thicker radiator in. Given that many of the early 1970s cabs fell foul of UK overall length rules, how did the 7MW fare on this front?

tiptop495:
Hey Robert, A bit of thread, but we said the same here as DAF came with the 2800. They mimic the F89 to atract customes.
But did they■■? I think that a development takes longer as 3 years as the 89 was only three years before the 2800.
My opinion only.

Cheers Eric,

Hello Eric! I’m sure you’re right. In any case, it was daft of me to suggest that the 7MW was more popular than the 5MW because there were more differences than just the frontal appearance: the 5MW version would certainly have been cheaper for a start, especially if you bought the straight-framed lighter duty version with a smaller engine; and the cabin was more expensively appointed in the 7MW - too many variables!

By the way, I was sipping Saqqara yesterday evening by the Nile, and that song ‘Geef mij maar Amsterdam’ came into my head - good tune, you must know it. After several more sips, I jotted down a new ERF version of it, as follows:

Geef mij maar E.R.F., dat was mooie voor het prijs
Geef mij maar E.R.F., een trekker paradijs!
Geef mij maar E.R.F. meet zijn ‘Eu-ro-pean’ cabine;
Want in Sandbach ben ik rijk, en gelukkig tegelijk:
Geef mij maar E.R.F!

With sincere apologies for my Nederlandse / Vlaamse tal, welke ik was even vergeten achter veel jaren zonder gebruiken! Wat gek, hoor!

And please feel free to correct!! :laughing: Good evening, en wel terusten, jongen! Robert

Goed gedaan jochie! Dutch and Flemish is not easy, to many exceptions…not speaking of slang,
just as Limburg (both Dutch and Belgian) and West-Flandres…

By the way…long before J.A. (Dai) Davies (then servicemanager in Middlewich) was responsible for
export, E.P. (Peter) Foden (1930-2014) was the responsible export-director. According to “Chassis”-
magazine from april 1963 E.P. Foden came back from joining army in 1955 and was in charge for
building the sales and reputation of the company abroad.

Hiya the

3300John:
Hiya the reason the front panel sticks out is theres a U channel shaped strengthener across from door pillar across the front
its standard on all MP cabs to stop the front splaying out(you cant have just two door frames without some kind of brace)
with the front been fiber glass and not steel like a guy there will be more metal materiel bonded into the fiber glass
this making the front stick out a little . where steel panels would be 1/16 inch thick the glass fiber will be half an inch
plus half an inch at the windscreen end so thats one inch more than a big J for a start. under that glass fiber front is a
brace that sweeps out from the door pillar across the front and sweeps back to the other door pillar. two vertical sections
each side of the rad then two more sections that sweep back to the door pillars just above the headlights.
if you look inside of KCH you’ll see where the foot pedels are the bulkhead is rounded the brace fits behind that panel.
if you Google MP steel cabs there,s a Blue big J with the front hanging off, you can see the construction on that photo.
the front sticking out isn’t to do with a big engine its the glass fiber that is thicker and more bulky.
John
hiya just been to find the photo .thanks to the owner for letting us have a look. you can see the brace sweeping round under the windscreen. the thickness of the glass fiber would make the panel stick out more than a thin sheet of steel.

My goodness, you have come up trumps twice in a single day with excellent explanations for why ERF NGCs are like they are. Thank you for this compelling evidence. I notice that the Foden MP cab of that era had an even more pronounced protrusion than the ERF! Robert :slight_smile:

En-Tour-Age:
Goed gedaan jochie! Dutch and Flemish is not easy, to many exceptions…not speaking of slang,
just as Limburg (both Dutch and Belgian) and West-Flandres…

By the way…long before J.A. (Dai) Davies (then servicemanager in Middlewich) was responsible for
export, E.P. (Peter) Foden (1930-2014) was the responsible export-director. According to “Chassis”-
magazine from april 1963 E.P. Foden came back from joining army in 1955 and was in charge for
building the sales and reputation of the company abroad.

Bedankt! Slaap lekker! Robert

No night-cap? Before J.A. Davies (related to Peter Davies?) in 1972 a certain Jones was in charge for service
and Dai was his assistant and R.W. (Bob) Chadwick was heading from sales.

Without offence…I truly believe/understand that UK-figures did count as a sort of protecting towards the
Swedes and Germans but now I more understand that the restricted production-capacity (3300John gave a
map on the space) forced to highlight domestic numbers, just as DAF (with single outlet) did.

Don’t ask me where I found that info, but I recall that P. C. de Jong (Free lance consultant) and S.L. Gaal (■■■■■■■ Engine Company)
had numerous meetings both on sales/marketing and technical subjects together with Eddy Deleers (CDB) and Pauw Bestebreurtje
(Best Truck) for the European-project. I guess Jack Cooke and appropriate co-partners had thorough discussions on technical-data
but restricted on what was available on the market…■■■■■■■■ gardner, rolls royce, detroit, zf, david brown, eaton, detroit allison,
kirkstall, timken, lockheed, don, ate, even armstrong for jacks…but hindered on acceptance/presence in the relevant countries.

ERF started with an independent distributor in Holland, later with a ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ importer and finally Best Truck, whereas
the Belgian CDB (ex Ets. A. Denonville) WAS a first hour importer long before WW2.

After the ‘failure’ of Krupp in Essen with their trucks (a joint venture or license for engines)
■■■■■■■ was seriously involved to activate the demand-side…sure after investing quite some
money in R&D (in Gross Gerau/Frankfurt) but also to have leverage as construction, railroad
and marine gave an attractive turnover…so a last attempt to do ‘something’ on automotive.

En-Tour-Age:
Don’t ask me where I found that info, but I recall that P. C. de Jong (Free lance consultant) and S.L. Gaal (■■■■■■■ Engine Company)
had numerous meetings both on sales/marketing and technical subjects together with Eddy Deleers (CDB) and Pauw Bestebreurtje
(Best Truck) for the European-project. I guess Jack Cooke and appropriate co-partners had thorough discussions on technical-data
but restricted on what was available on the market…■■■■■■■■ gardner, rolls royce, detroit, zf, david brown, eaton, detroit allison,
kirkstall, timken, lockheed, don, ate, even armstrong for jacks…but hindered on acceptance/presence in the relevant countries.

ERF started with an independent distributor in Holland, later with a ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ importer and finally Best Truck, whereas
the Belgian CDB (ex Ets. A. Denonville) WAS a first hour importer long before WW2.

Oh well, we’ll have to let that one float in the wind. I found a great quotation attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte today: ‘What then is, generally speaking, the truth of history? A fable agreed upon.’ Made me smile!

BTW I have emailed A-J with postal info. Robert

Evening Gentlemen…the Journalists…

Well, perhaps I should be a little cautious at this juncture…having enjoyed/endured/enraged(because of my comments…critical at the most mild) , various scribes, and their “distinct” driving styles over a fair few years, perhaps I should declare my rather reserved opinions…

By far, the average UK “journalist” would exceed his mainland counterpart by far, in extracting from the test vehicle, its best/worst features. It came from a distinctly different set of parameters in their reporting style…in the UK you were evaluating a vehicle to very “critical” readers, (engaged in a far more competitive market place,than mainland Europe). And in the main, “nationalistic” fervour was ignored.

Most had some form of engineering background, John Barras ex Dodge, Graham Montgomerie, ex Leyland, Pat, ex Leyland,John Dickinson Simpson, Anthony, P (Tony), Wilding, Mike , (cruncher) Cunningham, all the way from the Isle of Wight objective in the extreme, and determined to do their best for both Manufacturer, and vitaley, their readers.
When that doyen of the motor Press, Iain Sheriff appointed a young photographer Brian Weatherley as his successor, as editor of Commercial Motor he made a good choice.

Now as to our European friends…

Apologies, have to go, a major problem down on the Water Meadows…will finish up later…