ERF 'European' (1975)

mandator:
Yep,

In Landen was CINTRA as bus & coach operator. A lot of Miesses with Desot bodies and some interesting Mack buses.
Another operator was DONY CARS in Borgloon with Miesses.

You find more info on these bus fleets on: zone01.be Happy hunting :wink:

Hey F, you have it right, i have sought in my books and now it’s part of Keolis group. The name was Eurobussing and the first of all the Family Reniers (GDL) Landen.
Pitty I never took pic’s of the cars and buses, especially Desot had a nice look but verleure too.
I will look at the site maybe memories of the company,once told a Desot was saved for colection■■?

Cheers Eric,

@Eric (tiptop495) try waceutra@gmail.com he has an extensive archive with/on busses!!

Just for further/thorough research: does an ERF-dealernetwork-list for France exist?

Hiya going back

mandator:
Indeed guys it was a family firm and I was there for years in my spare time as an enthusiast!
The bus company started way back before second World War, founded by Florent Cannaerts situated at Willebroek, a town west of Mechelen.
After hostilities the son, Jozef, joins the management and he starts two companies MEBA (running the bus route Mechelen-Boom-Antwerp) and DEBA running the route Dendermonde-Boom-Antwerp. Main bus manufacturer in service in those years was Miesse, equipped with Gardner LW and LX engines.
Next to the bus fleet was an extensive coach fleet with Miesse-Gardner and Desot bodies. They even run a service Zeebrugge - Calcutta for a British travel agency in the sixties!

On the truck front they had a partnership with Transports Trois Fontaines SA running Miesse trucks, also with Gardner engines. In the seventies he started another company Trupaco, for import of Gardner engines and bus & truck spare parts.

I remember when I was there a lot of secondhand Miesse buses were bought for their Gardner engines. Those engines were overhauled in house by an ex. Miesse worker.
All the members of his bus fleet, non Miesse, were thus equipped with Gardners (Pegaso, DAF, Neoplan, etc.)
The last Miesse tractor made , originally GM powered, was in his possesion but unfortunately lost in a hangar fire.

Today the grandson has still a coach company: autobussencannaerts.be

If interested I can post some of the Miesse tractors :laughing:

Thank you Mandator. That, as we say here, rings a bell. The mechanic I knew was big with a beard and never happier than when with a spanner in is hand and a Gardner to use it on :smiley: :smiley:

The milk-factory “Laiteries Préval in Vire, region 50 Normandie” had a
lot of Magirus-Deutz-trucks in their extensive fleet but once had the
chance to use an ERF-demonstrator.

mandator:
Indeed guys it was a family firm and I was there for years in my spare time as an enthusiast!
The bus company started way back before second World War, founded by Florent Cannaerts situated at Willebroek, a town west of Mechelen.
After hostilities the son, Jozef, joins the management and he starts two companies MEBA (running the bus route Mechelen-Boom-Antwerp) and DEBA running the route Dendermonde-Boom-Antwerp. Main bus manufacturer in service in those years was Miesse, equipped with Gardner LW and LX engines.
Next to the bus fleet was an extensive coach fleet with Miesse-Gardner and Desot bodies. They even run a service Zeebrugge - Calcutta for a British travel agency in the sixties!

On the truck front they had a partnership with Transports Trois Fontaines SA running Miesse trucks, also with Gardner engines. In the seventies he started another company Trupaco, for import of Gardner engines and bus & truck spare parts.

Evening all, mandator , totally correct, and your last paragraph did a lot of business with my friend Paul Sykes of Barnsley. The British Travel Agent was Thomas Cook, and that business deserves a thread of its own!

Back to the European ERFs, and just a little “meat on the flesh” regarding Trans Arabia…

Joint venture company between S Jones Investments, (Channel Islands), 28/34 Hill Street , Saint Hellier, Jersey, and Abdullah and Said MO, Binz Agr Co, PO Box209, Jeddah Saudi Arabia.

Operational base, PO Box 2389, Jeddah, The fleet also included Mack R serie, and DMs, (including a tri drive). How many Kenworth K100s were run I do not know, but there was certainly one coffin cab! As well as the LVs, and B Serie.

The accounts are somewhat “difficult” to analyse…but then David Hughes was a superb accountant…but there would seem to be an interest from OCL.

Fascinating company…fascinating thread…

I will remember tose misty Belgian mornings so well, as I enjoy my nightcap Bollinger…

Cheerio for now.

ERF-Continental:
A discovered treasure of France!

I emphasize on the source (Collection Gervais Lumet) for this ERF NGC of early 1973-1974.

Operator was “Laiteries Préval in Vire, region 50 Normandie” so a milk-industry who had a
lot of Magirus-Deutz-trucks in their extensive fleet.

Please add or enjoy! A-J

Before I enjoy my Bollinger, Im not sure if that lorry came from MABO, (they disposed of a lot of Laiteries Preval Magirus lorries), I will make a telephone call tomorrow…rain permitting, she does not have a registration plate!

Cheerio for now.

@Saviem: it might have been a demonstrator…and you’re right, their fleet was full of KHD’s!

By the way, I stated the region of Laiteries Préval wrong, it is 14 and not 50. Indeed
hard to have a clear registrationnumber from the picture. I meanwhile contacted the
owner of the picture, but no news yet.

Back to the European ERFs, and just a little “meat on the flesh” regarding Trans Arabia…

Joint venture company between S Jones Investments, (Channel Islands), 28/34 Hill Street , Saint Hellier, Jersey, and Abdullah and Said MO, Binz Agr Co, PO Box209, Jeddah Saudi Arabia.

Operational base, PO Box 2389, Jeddah, The fleet also included Mack R serie, and DMs, (including a tri drive). How many Kenworth K100s were run I do not know, but there was certainly one coffin cab! As well as the LVs, and B Serie.

The accounts are somewhat “difficult” to analyse…but then David Hughes was a superb accountant…but there would seem to be an interest from OCL.

Fascinating company…fascinating thread…

I will remember tose misty Belgian mornings so well, as I enjoy my nightcap Bollinger…

Cheerio for now.
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I’ve been trying for a couple of weeks now to get my full write-up about Trans Arabia onto here but all I get when I try to upload it is:

‘Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.’ Robert

Here’s a train of thought for CF and Anorak to mull over, I tried to say this earlier but my Egyptian server wouldn’t let me upload anything. It remains a part-mystery that these fantastic examples of British transport history only ran to a few dozen trucks, when a third of them had proved themselves reliable under the harsh conditions of the Middle East; and why they failed to gain more popularity in Europe after the French, the Dutch, the Belgians, and the Swiss had started adding them to their fleets. Time and again one encounters throw-away comments about ERFs being ‘gaffers’ motors’, when discussing Britain’s failure to hold its own in the international truck market in the ‘70s. This myth has become embedded in our trucking folk-culture and the remarks of careless trade-press journalists help to perpetuate it. I made the point earlier that the NGC 420 was decidedly not a ‘gaffers’ motor’. Older British readers will remember that lorries of that time were perceived very clearly either as ‘gaffers’ motors’ or ‘drivers’ motors’ because there was a vastly bigger gap between those two categories than there is today. However, it can hardly be argued that sales of the NGC 420 suffered from the stigma of the ‘gaffers’ motor’: firstly because it was clearly a ‘drivers’ motor’; and secondly because the market-place for these ERFs lay outside Britain where such distinctions were not so much of an issue.
The most likely reason was that the thirsty old big-banger under the bonnet was looking less attractive than more frugal European machines. This truck would pass just about anything on the road barring filling stations. We know that in Holland, NGC 420 units were replaced by B-series mainly on grounds of fuel-consumption; and at 50-tonnes gross weight the difference would have been evident. I earlier referred to foreign drivers’ preference for the NGC 420 over the B-series, but there is a high likelihood that the B-series edged its predecessor out promptly because it was more frugal.
One of the reasons for ERF’s apparent lack of success on the continent was that the truck markets were significantly more depressed than in Britain during the late ‘70s. It is tempting to wonder if ERF’s European back-up infrastructure, which was still in its infancy, was competitive enough. Gentilucci sent its Volvos to Eastern Europe and Russia but confined its ERF NGC 420 to Western Europe because the back-up was insufficient. As we have seen, Dai Davies who worked at ERF was pretty scathing about the lack of investment in the European infrastructure. However, it is worth remembering that in the ‘seventies a driver was strictly on his own once he’d left the EEC (now the EU) whatever make of truck he was driving. I remember once chatting at the Jordan-Syria border with Chris Hooper who used to run a Ford ‘Transcontinental’ in Astran livery on the Middle-East run; and he pointed out that ■■■■■■■ engines were familiar to mechanics all the way down to the Gulf. The ■■■■■■■ 335 was a like a piece of Meccano that a driver could work on by the roadside if he had to, possibly with the aid of Arabs who were capable of engineering parts out of scrap. In any case it was known to be reliable.
It’s doubtful that there were problems with completing orders within an acceptable time-frame because the Continental dealers kept vehicles in stock. It is not as if the NGC 420 suffered from poor advertising: one of Eric Vick’s robust NGC 420 units undoubtedly enhanced their reputation when it appeared in a full-page Bandag tyres advert in the trade press claiming great savings on return trips to Istanbul. Were they thoroughly marketed though? The NGC 420 was not unduly heavy, or too expensive; and the poor resale value of left-hand drive units was confined only to Britain. to be continued…Robert
, of course - but the baby was probably thrown out with the bathwater! Robert

If it was about ERF’s insistence on constant-mesh gearboxes, I can never quite understand why drivers were so ready to relinquish them. I once drove a modern artic over the fabulous High Atlas Mountains to the Saharan town of Ouarzazate in southern Morocco. It was a tough and wild mountain drive up steep, narrow and unfenced hairpin bends, lasting for several hours. The views were breath-taking. The only problem for me was that the tractive unit had an automatic gearbox that thought it could do the job better than me, and to be fair, maybe it could; but it left me feeling frustrated and de-skilled. In a sense it dumbed-down the driving experience. I would have given my eye-teeth for a 9-speed Fuller ‘box (or a 13-speed one if you insist, CF) with a clutch-brake and a Jake-brake during that gruelling slog across the mountains of North Africa. With it I would probably have used just a little more fuel than the automatic, but I would have felt much safer, far more relaxed and I would certainly have arrived at my destination feeling more like a professional driver. Mercifully, most of my trips to North Africa and the Middle East were in a unit with a manual constant-mesh ‘box. continued…Robert

Not intended for European-service on the continent, but I found this picture
of brotherly parked Ford-■■■■■■’s ready for the job.

ERF-Service-1975-A.jpg

robert1952:
If it was about ERF’s insistence on constant-mesh gearboxes, I can never quite understand why drivers were so ready to relinquish them. I once drove a modern artic over the fabulous High Atlas Mountains to the Saharan town of Ouarzazate in southern Morocco. It was a tough and wild mountain drive up steep, narrow and unfenced hairpin bends, lasting for several hours. The views were breath-taking. The only problem for me was that the tractive unit had an automatic gearbox that thought it could do the job better than me, and to be fair, maybe it could; but it left me feeling frustrated and de-skilled. In a sense it dumbed-down the driving experience. I would have given my eye-teeth for a 9-speed Fuller ‘box (or a 13-speed one if you insist, CF) with a clutch-brake and a Jake-brake during that gruelling slog across the mountains of North Africa. With it I would probably have used just a little more fuel than the automatic, but I would have felt much safer, far more relaxed and I would certainly have arrived at my destination feeling more like a professional driver. Mercifully, most of my trips to North Africa and the Middle East were in a unit with a manual constant-mesh ‘box. continued…Robert

Evening Robert, when I did that journey, (75 ish), it was in a Maroc built TR280, 266hp, and 40 plus tonnes, and no Telma all the way to Oarzazte!Yes I was used to European Cols, but that road is something else… North Africa lorry driving, well what can one say…except that its different…

Cheerio for now.

robert1952:
Here’s a train of thought for CF and Anorak to mull over, I tried to say this earlier but my Egyptian server wouldn’t let me upload anything. It remains a part-mystery that these fantastic examples of British transport history only ran to a few dozen trucks, when a third of them had proved themselves reliable under the harsh conditions of the Middle East; and why they failed to gain more popularity in Europe after the French, the Dutch, the Belgians, and the Swiss had started adding them to their fleets. Time and again one encounters throw-away comments about ERFs being ‘gaffers’ motors’, when discussing Britain’s failure to hold its own in the international truck market in the ‘70s. This myth has become embedded in our trucking folk-culture and the remarks of careless trade-press journalists help to perpetuate it. I made the point earlier that the NGC 420 was decidedly not a ‘gaffers’ motor’. Older British readers will remember that lorries of that time were perceived very clearly either as ‘gaffers’ motors’ or ‘drivers’ motors’ because there was a vastly bigger gap between those two categories than there is today. However, it can hardly be argued that sales of the NGC 420 suffered from the stigma of the ‘gaffers’ motor’: firstly because it was clearly a ‘drivers’ motor’; and secondly because the market-place for these ERFs lay outside Britain where such distinctions were not so much of an issue.
The most likely reason was that the thirsty old big-banger under the bonnet was looking less attractive than more frugal European machines. This truck would pass just about anything on the road barring filling stations. We know that in Holland, NGC 420 units were replaced by B-series mainly on grounds of fuel-consumption; and at 50-tonnes gross weight the difference would have been evident. I earlier referred to foreign drivers’ preference for the NGC 420 over the B-series, but there is a high likelihood that the B-series edged its predecessor out promptly because it was more frugal.
One of the reasons for ERF’s apparent lack of success on the continent was that the truck markets were significantly more depressed than in Britain during the late ‘70s. It is tempting to wonder if ERF’s European back-up infrastructure, which was still in its infancy, was competitive enough. Gentilucci sent its Volvos to Eastern Europe and Russia but confined its ERF NGC 420 to Western Europe because the back-up was insufficient. As we have seen, Dai Davies who worked at ERF was pretty scathing about the lack of investment in the European infrastructure. However, it is worth remembering that in the ‘seventies a driver was strictly on his own once he’d left the EEC (now the EU) whatever make of truck he was driving. I remember once chatting at the Jordan-Syria border with Chris Hooper who used to run a Ford ‘Transcontinental’ in Astran livery on the Middle-East run; and he pointed out that ■■■■■■■ engines were familiar to mechanics all the way down to the Gulf. The ■■■■■■■ 335 was a like a piece of Meccano that a driver could work on by the roadside if he had to, possibly with the aid of Arabs who were capable of engineering parts out of scrap. In any case it was known to be reliable.
It’s doubtful that there were problems with completing orders within an acceptable time-frame because the Continental dealers kept vehicles in stock. It is not as if the NGC 420 suffered from poor advertising: one of Eric Vick’s robust NGC 420 units undoubtedly enhanced their reputation when it appeared in a full-page Bandag tyres advert in the trade press claiming great savings on return trips to Istanbul. Were they thoroughly marketed though? The NGC 420 was not unduly heavy, or too expensive; and the poor resale value of left-hand drive units was confined only to Britain. to be continued…Robert
, of course - but the baby was probably thrown out with the bathwater! Robert

I’d say that most of that fits in with my view on the subject.

The issue of trucks like the European being tarred with the same brush as stereotypical British ‘guvnors’ wagons was probably always going to be an inevitable misconception which the British manufacturers were going to be lumbered with regardless of the actual spec of the product.

Much of that can be blamed on those manufacturers themselves having chosen not to delete those old Gardner powered heaps from their product lists thereby forcing the domestic customer base away from that choice with the beneficial result of also finally severing that sometimes misconceived,if understandable,false association.Remembering that even the ‘European’ seems to have been offered to the domestic market with the typical obsolete Gardner DB box combination which the UK market was so resistant to moving away from.However that misconception could probably be accurately identified as just a domestic market issue not a foreign market one

As for fuel consumption of the ■■■■■■■ powered examples at least as of 1976 we’ve got an obsolete small cam ■■■■■■■ and 9 speed fuller combination.Which isn’t exactly,at that point in time,the last word or state of the art in terms of the combination of performance and fuel efficiency.Which as you’ve ( rightly ) identified that’s one of the issues which was always going to put such wagons behind in many export markets especially after the 1973 oil crisis.

Having said that the issue of setting up a viable European export operation was never going to be a sustainable idea in the long or even short term for the Brits.Simply because British/American type chassis engineering was never going to prove acceptable enough to European buyers.Nor was the required shift away from their domestic/local manufacturers on a large enough scale,at the right time,to make such an operation viable,ever going to happen.As for the Swiss even their own very good domestic product in the form of Saurer,let alone ERF,couldn’t fight off their massively invested German neighbour in the form of Mercedes in the long term.All that regardless of the merits of the respective products in which the ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ combination of the Brit was/would have continued to be arguably technically way ahead of both in terms of performance,efficiency and maintenance costs.

Hence the reason why,at that time,the Swiss seemed to be going for the American chassis engineering option.The big question in that case then being who would win in a fight between manufacturers like ERF and Mercedes for example in the European market in the medium to long term and what investor would have put their money on manufacturers like ERF to win.History seems to have answered that question,as I’ve said,not based on the merits of the respective products,but based on a rigged game of monopoly which Germany,amongst others like DAF and the Scandinavians,were always going to win.Which probably explains why Pat Kennet never did get to test that Big Cam 320-400 powered 13 speed 420 against the euro and scandinavian competition as of at least 1977. :bulb: :frowning:

robert1952:
Here’s a train of thought for CF and Anorak to mull over,

Good grief. I’m being bracketed with the loon.

robert1952:
I tried to say this earlier but my Egyptian server wouldn’t let me upload anything. It remains a part-mystery that these fantastic examples of British transport history only ran to a few dozen trucks, when a third of them had proved themselves reliable under the harsh conditions of the Middle East; and why they failed to gain more popularity in Europe after the French, the Dutch, the Belgians, and the Swiss had started adding them to their fleets. Time and again one encounters throw-away comments about ERFs being ‘gaffers’ motors’, when discussing Britain’s failure to hold its own in the international truck market in the ‘70s. This myth has become embedded in our trucking folk-culture and the remarks of careless trade-press journalists help to perpetuate it. I made the point earlier that the NGC 420 was decidedly not a ‘gaffers’ motor’. Older British readers will remember that lorries of that time were perceived very clearly either as ‘gaffers’ motors’ or ‘drivers’ motors’ because there was a vastly bigger gap between those two categories than there is today. However, it can hardly be argued that sales of the NGC 420 suffered from the stigma of the ‘gaffers’ motor’: firstly because it was clearly a ‘drivers’ motor’; and secondly because the market-place for these ERFs lay outside Britain where such distinctions were not so much of an issue.
The most likely reason was that the thirsty old big-banger under the bonnet was looking less attractive than more frugal European machines. This truck would pass just about anything on the road barring filling stations. We know that in Holland, NGC 420 units were replaced by B-series mainly on grounds of fuel-consumption; and at 50-tonnes gross weight the difference would have been evident. I earlier referred to foreign drivers’ preference for the NGC 420 over the B-series, but there is a high likelihood that the B-series edged its predecessor out promptly because it was more frugal.
One of the reasons for ERF’s apparent lack of success on the continent was that the truck markets were significantly more depressed than in Britain during the late ‘70s. It is tempting to wonder if ERF’s European back-up infrastructure, which was still in its infancy, was competitive enough. Gentilucci sent its Volvos to Eastern Europe and Russia but confined its ERF NGC 420 to Western Europe because the back-up was insufficient. As we have seen, Dai Davies who worked at ERF was pretty scathing about the lack of investment in the European infrastructure. However, it is worth remembering that in the ‘seventies a driver was strictly on his own once he’d left the EEC (now the EU) whatever make of truck he was driving. I remember once chatting at the Jordan-Syria border with Chris Hooper who used to run a Ford ‘Transcontinental’ in Astran livery on the Middle-East run; and he pointed out that ■■■■■■■ engines were familiar to mechanics all the way down to the Gulf. The ■■■■■■■ 335 was a like a piece of Meccano that a driver could work on by the roadside if he had to, possibly with the aid of Arabs who were capable of engineering parts out of scrap. In any case it was known to be reliable.
It’s doubtful that there were problems with completing orders within an acceptable time-frame because the Continental dealers kept vehicles in stock. It is not as if the NGC 420 suffered from poor advertising: one of Eric Vick’s robust NGC 420 units undoubtedly enhanced their reputation when it appeared in a full-page Bandag tyres advert in the trade press claiming great savings on return trips to Istanbul. Were they thoroughly marketed though? The NGC 420 was not unduly heavy, or too expensive; and the poor resale value of left-hand drive units was confined only to Britain. to be continued…Robert
, of course - but the baby was probably thrown out with the bathwater! Robert

Regarding the more palatable points you make:

The difference between “gaffer’s motors” and “drivers’ trucks” exists to this day. The supermarkets and fuel deliverers still use lower-powered, small-cabbed vehicles. The idea of spending a week in one of these would horrify the long-distance driver who, ordinarily, gets the vehicle from the other end of the range. The only difference nowadays is that the gaffer’s wagon is not injurious to the health of the driver- the controls do not wear his body out and the cab does not explode into bits in a crash. I would guess that, in the mid seventies, most people would prefer the more luxurious, quiet, spacious Continental cabs but, as we have discussed before, there was probably room in the market for the more “functional” 7MW.

In the Eurotest report, the NTC335 was competitive with the other 300+bhp engines on performance and fuel consumption so, in that part of the market, it was not at a disadvantage. However, I bet that the 250-300bhp sector was much more popular at the time. Not offering a ■■■■■■■ 250/290 option (if this is true) under the 7MW cab was definitely a mistake. Given the respect that Gardner engines had accrued, in those Continental vehicles which used them in the 1960s, an 8LXB option would have given ERF the cachet of having the most economical, durable engine in Europe. It would have been good marketing, if nothing else. On that note, why not offer the NTC380, even as far back as 1973? It might have appealed only to operators/drivers with big wallets and small dicks, but would have provided a “halo” effect over the lower-powered versions, much like the V8 Scania does.

In short, ERF should have sold a range of 7MW-cabbed vehicles in Europe. Perversely, they avoided the chief advantage of their US-style component-build method, which was customer choice. By offering the NGC420 with the NTC335 alone, they actually put themselves at a disadvantage. How many LB110 or F88 sales could they have stolen, by offering the 1-2mpg extra a Gardner 240 gave? The dealer network might have been stretched even more, with the requirement for extra parts inventory and training, but service support was the weakness anyway- a bit more trouble on that front would have been more than counterbalanced by the manufacturer having another couple of strings to its bow. The extra sales would have covered the cost of expanding the service network more quickly.

The 240 straight eight Gardner in it’s time (when 180 - 220 was the norm) was looked on as a premium and desirable engine by both Gaffers and drivers. Gardner then added a blower to this engine upping the power to 300 or so. Fitted into B series E.Vick used these on the North Africa run for 10 years or so. Once rebuilt by Vick’s fitter they would give seven years service without needed anything major done to them.
The big problem was that, allegedly, ERF’s engineers said that the engine would not fit into a LHD B series. This was something that Vick’s fitter disproved but was never taken up by ERF (perhaps he wanted too much for his design) :unamused: :wink:

‘Heaps’ the early UK ERF’s may have been but don’t include the Gardner engine in this description.

zzarbean:
The 240 straight eight Gardner in it’s time (when 180 - 220 was the norm) was looked on as a premium and desirable engine by both Gaffers and drivers. Gardner then added a blower to this engine upping the power to 300 or so. Fitted into B series E.Vick used these on the North Africa run for 10 years or so. Once rebuilt by Vick’s fitter they would give seven years service without needed anything major done to them.
The big problem was that, allegedly, ERF’s engineers said that the engine would not fit into a LHD B series. This was something that Vick’s fitter disproved but was never taken up by ERF (perhaps he wanted too much for his design) :unamused: :wink:

‘Heaps’ the early UK ERF’s may have been but don’t include the Gardner engine in this description.

Going by that logic the master plan for the survival of the British truck manufacturing industry would have been to stay with Gardner engines instead of trying to move forward at the right time using the ■■■■■■■ Big Cam range in 320-400 form. :open_mouth: :unamused: :laughing: