Driving hours - private use historic commercial vehicle

Hello.

I am pretty sure this may have been covered but cant quite find an exact answer. We have a couple of 60’s lorries (24 ton) that we take to shows. Neither of them are fitted with taco’s and havnt been at any point in their life.

My questions are a) Presumable driving hours still apply? b) if they do do i need to log them in any way, if so how?

All the best,

Jon

j_turner023:
Hello.

I am pretty sure this may have been covered but cant quite find an exact answer. We have a couple of 60’s lorries (24 ton) that we take to shows. Neither of them are fitted with taco’s and havnt been at any point in their life.

My questions are a) Presumable driving hours still apply? b) if they do do i need to log them in any way, if so how?

All the best,

Jon

There’s an exemption from EU regulations for historic vehicles which in the UK means vehicles manufactured more than 25 years ago.

The exemption in (EC) 561/2006 is:

Commercial vehicles that have a historic status according to the legislation of the Member State in which they are driven and that are used for the noncommercial carriage of goods.

And as you will not be driving the vehicle as a part of your employment, or as part of your trade or business, you will also be exempt from domestic regulations.

So as far as I can see, whilst driving the vehicles to shows you will be exempt from all drivers hours regulations.

Enjoy the shows :smiley:

Sounds good to me! Happy days :slight_smile:

tachograph:

j_turner023:
Hello.

I am pretty sure this may have been covered but cant quite find an exact answer. We have a couple of 60’s lorries (24 ton) that we take to shows. Neither of them are fitted with taco’s and havnt been at any point in their life.

My questions are a) Presumable driving hours still apply? b) if they do do i need to log them in any way, if so how?

All the best,

Jon

There’s an exemption from EU regulations for historic vehicles which in the UK means vehicles manufactured more than 25 years ago.

The exemption in (EC) 561/2006 is:

Commercial vehicles that have a historic status according to the legislation of the Member State in which they are driven and that are used for the noncommercial carriage of goods.

And as you will not be driving the vehicle as a part of your employment, or as part of your trade or business, you will also be exempt from domestic regulations.

So as far as I can see, whilst driving the vehicles to shows you will be exempt from all drivers hours regulations.

Enjoy the shows :smiley:

what about tacho on a vehicle that is not 25 years old?

kemperink:
what about tacho on a vehicle that is not 25 years old?

If it is plated over 7500kg MGW then all the rules apply I’m afraid. There is no longer any exemption for private use.

Paul

repton:
If it is plated over 7500kg MGW then all the rules apply I’m afraid. There is no longer any exemption for private use.

Whilst there maybe no exemption for private use of a vehicle in scope of the regulations, not every vehicle plated over 7500KG MGW is automatically within scope of the regulations. I.e. a privatley used HGV, not used for the commercial carriage of goods.

so if i have got this right -a private hgv towing a traction engine is exempt but a commercial hgv is not?

kemperink:
so if i have got this right -a private hgv towing a traction engine is exempt but a commercial hgv is not?

Not quite correct, EU regulations cover vehicles over 3.5 tonnes that are used for the carriage of goods, it doesn’t have to be commercial.

So if a HGV vehicle of over 7.5 tonnes is carrying goods and there is no EU exemption the vehicle comes under EU regulations, if a HGV vehicle was towing/carrying a traction engine it’s carrying goods and therefore comes under EU regulations.

For EU regulations there is no exemption for private use for vehicles that exceed 7.5 tonnes.

If a vehicle is exempt from EU regulations it comes under domestic regulations, but only if it’s used for commercial purposes.

not used for the commercial carriage of goods

is it classed as “goods” though?

kemperink:

not used for the commercial carriage of goods

is it classed as “goods” though?

If you mean a traction engine being carried or towed by an HGV vehicle yes it is classed as goods.

Even if an artic unit is used to deliver or collect empty trailers the trailers are considered by law to be goods.

Booth v DPP [1993] RTR 379

Beverly Bell says so to (36)

Mike-C:

repton:
If it is plated over 7500kg MGW then all the rules apply I’m afraid. There is no longer any exemption for private use.

Whilst there maybe no exemption for private use of a vehicle in scope of the regulations, not every vehicle plated over 7500KG MGW is automatically within scope of the regulations. I.e. a privatley used HGV, not used for the commercial carriage of goods.

IIRC the 2006 rule changes did away with the private / non commercial exemption from the regulations. Everything over 7500kg MGW is now subject to them, other than the few vehicles which fit into the very limited exemptions at the start of the regulations.

Paul

repton:

Mike-C:

repton:
If it is plated over 7500kg MGW then all the rules apply I’m afraid. There is no longer any exemption for private use.

Whilst there maybe no exemption for private use of a vehicle in scope of the regulations, not every vehicle plated over 7500KG MGW is automatically within scope of the regulations. I.e. a privatley used HGV, not used for the commercial carriage of goods.

IIRC the 2006 rule changes did away with the private / non commercial exemption from the regulations. Everything over 7500kg MGW is now subject to them, other than the few vehicles which fit into the very limited exemptions at the start of the regulations.

Paul

Only vehicles that are used for the carriage of goods come under EU regulations, I would say that if a vehicle is never used for the carriage of goods it does not come in-scope of EU regulations.

The private use of vehicles not exceeding 7.5 tonnes allows people to drive the vehicle and carry goods as long as it’s not for commercial purposes.

Article 1

This Regulation lays down rules on driving times, breaks and
rest periods for drivers engaged in the carriage of goods and
passengers by road in order to harmonise the conditions of
competition between modes of inland transport, especially
with regard to the road sector, and to improve working
conditions and road safety. This Regulation also aims to
promote improved monitoring and enforcement practices by
Member States and improved working practices in the road
transport industry.

Article 2

  1. This Regulation shall apply to the carriage by road:
    (a) of goods where the maximum permissible mass of the
    vehicle, including any trailer, or semi-trailer, exceeds
    3,5 tonnes, or

(b) of passengers by vehicles which are constructed or
permanently adapted for carrying more than nine
persons including the driver, and are intended for that
purpose.

tachograph:
Only vehicles that are used for the carriage of goods come under EU regulations, I would say that if a vehicle is never used for the carriage of goods it does not come in-scope of EU regulations.

I didn’t realise that was the wording. It is impressively vague. I wonder if there is any case law that definitely defines “a vehicle used for the carriage of goods”.

Surely it can’t be enough to, when stopped by VOSA in your private HGV, just say “I never put anything on the back officer, so it isn’t a vehicle used for the carriage of goods”. It is impossible to prove either way.

Paul

repton:
Surely it can’t be enough to, when stopped by VOSA in your private HGV, just say “I never put anything on the back officer, so it isn’t a vehicle used for the carriage of goods”. It is impossible to prove either way.

Paul

I’m sure that is the reason why showmen are exempt as they dont carry goods?

repton:

tachograph:
Only vehicles that are used for the carriage of goods come under EU regulations, I would say that if a vehicle is never used for the carriage of goods it does not come in-scope of EU regulations.

I didn’t realise that was the wording. It is impressively vague. I wonder if there is any case law that definitely defines “a vehicle used for the carriage of goods”.

Surely it can’t be enough to, when stopped by VOSA in your private HGV, just say “I never put anything on the back officer, so it isn’t a vehicle used for the carriage of goods”. It is impossible to prove either way.

Paul

You’ll know if a vehicle is used for carrying goods, it will have an O licence to do so. If it doesn’t have an O licence to allow it to carry goods and is taxed privateley then its a private vehicle. Thats the easy proof, it is licensed or not to carry goods.

Mike-C:
You’ll know if a vehicle is used for carrying goods, it will have an O licence to do so. If it doesn’t have an O licence to allow it to carry goods and is taxed privateley then its a private vehicle. Thats the easy proof, it is licensed or not to carry goods.

Surely if it doesn’t have an O-Licence it isn’t licenced to carry goods for hire or reward or in connection with your business, but it can still carry goods? You don’t have to be making money out of it to count, surely? Or have I missed a definition somewhere? Do things suddenly stop becoming “goods” if you’re not making any money out of moving then?

Paul

repton:

Mike-C:
You’ll know if a vehicle is used for carrying goods, it will have an O licence to do so. If it doesn’t have an O licence to allow it to carry goods and is taxed privateley then its a private vehicle. Thats the easy proof, it is licensed or not to carry goods.

Surely if it doesn’t have an O-Licence it isn’t licenced to carry goods for hire or reward or in connection with your business, but it can still carry goods? You don’t have to be making money out of it to count, surely? Or have I missed a definition somewhere? Do things suddenly stop becoming “goods” if you’re not making any money out of moving then?

Paul

As far as i understand it, its the carriage of goods that needs licensing unless of course there’s some sort of exemption for the vehicle. In very general terms you can’t carry goods unless you’re licensed to do so, no matter whether its private goods, commercial carriage etc. So in effect you can just drive round willy nilly in a great big lorry with no tacho and O licence just for fun, assuming you can afford the fuel !! :laughing: And as you point out you don’t actually carry goods either.

Mike-C:
As far as i understand it, its the carriage of goods that needs licensing

According to dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/G … 0Guide.pdf:

You will need a goods vehicle operator’s
licence if you use a goods vehicle of over
3.5 tonnes gross plated weight or (where
there is no plated weight) an unladen weight
of more than 1,525kg to transport goods for
hire or reward or in connection with a trade
or business.

Which implies that you don’t need an O-Licence to transport goods if it is not for hire or reward or in connection with a trade or business.

So lack of O-Licence does not automatically indicate that you are not carrying goods.

That’s how I read it anyway. So I’m no clearer on the original issue - how do you define what is and what is not a goods vehicle for the purposes of EU tacho rules exemptions?

Paul

repton:
So I’m no clearer on the original issue - how do you define what is and what is not a goods vehicle for the purposes of EU tacho rules exemptions?

You don’t need to define what is a goods vehicle as the EU regulations don’t apply to goods vehicles per se, EU regulations apply to goods vehicles that carry goods.

As far as how would VOSA know whether or not you carry goods on the vehicle is concerned, I guess it’s the same as any other law, if the vehicle is over 7.5 tonne and taxed for private use and you get caught carrying goods you get done, if you don’t get caught you don’t get done :smiley:

Personally If I was using a vehicle for private use because it’s never used for the carriage of goods I’d be inclined to make sure it showed that it wasn’t used to carry anything, but maybe that’s just me :slight_smile:

One thing I would say though, if the vehicle is usually used for carrying goods and you tried using at the weekend for a show on the understanding that you don’t carry goods at weekends, I think you’d soon be getting to know the TC a little better if you got caught :wink:

tachograph:
As far as how would VOSA know whether or not you carry goods on the vehicle is concerned, I guess it’s the same as any other law, if the vehicle is over 7.5 tonne and taxed for private use and you get caught carrying goods you get done, if you don’t get caught you don’t get done :smiley:

That just brings us back to what I said earlier though - the law is very poorly defined. It seems from what I can work out that if you drive an empty, privately registered HGV you can claim exemption from driver’s hours rules on the basis that the vehicle does not carry goods. But how do you define “goods”? For example if you’re going to a show on a weekend and you chuck a tent, push bike and BBQ on the back, are you now driving a vehicle that carries goods and therefore subject to drivers hours rules? If you put the same items in the cab instead of in the load area where would you stand?

Paul