j_turner023:
Hello.
I am pretty sure this may have been covered but cant quite find an exact answer. We have a couple of 60’s lorries (24 ton) that we take to shows. Neither of them are fitted with taco’s and havnt been at any point in their life.
My questions are a) Presumable driving hours still apply? b) if they do do i need to log them in any way, if so how?
All the best,
Jon
Its a can of worms, Vehicle over 25 yrs … If its empty totally it can weight whatever you like if its taxed and insured as a private vehicle thats Domestic rules , no tacho needed…but carry a book logging your hours as the safe driving rules even apply to private vehicles, and in no way can you be paid for driving even in beer or time off etc etc or its work and your nicked. I am just sorting this now for our old F12 , which I have to get under 7.5 tonnes with trailer because they have taken my licence away on a medical !
If you want to carry goods (even your own) over 7.5 tonnes you are back to Eu rules…god help you, but as 99% of plod wont know its your call. I am awaiting this in writing from our local office.
Here you go some light reading
businesslink.gov.uk/Transpor … 1111_3.pdf
repton:
how do you define what is and what is not a goods vehicle for the purposes of EU tacho rules exemptions?
Paul
If you approach the questions from the point of…what vehicle comes in scope, what driver comes in scope etc. then the questions will be easier to answer. Looking for an exemption for something that may not be in scope will prove very difficult to answer easily and this is where people think the regs are “grey areas” or “unclear”.
If you start with an incorrect assumption then you’re going to struggle with a correct answer.
Tachograph cites an exemption from driving hours regs…
Commercial vehicles that have a historic status according to the legislation of the Member State in which they are driven and that are used for the noncommercial carriage of goods.
And thats fine, however if you look at what does come in scope…
INTRODUCTORY PROVISIONS
Article 1
This Regulation lays down rules on driving times, breaks and rest periods for drivers engaged in the carriage of goods and passengers by road in order to harmonise the conditions of competition between modes of inland transport, especially with regard to the road sector, and to improve working conditions and road safety. This Regulation also aims to promote improved monitoring and enforcement practices by Member States and improved working practices in the road transport industry.
Article 2
1. This Regulation shall apply to the carriage by road:
(a) of goods where the maximum permissible mass of the vehicle, including any trailer, or semi-trailer, exceeds 3,5 tonnes, or
Now ‘assuming’ its registered privately, and is not licensed to carry goods and does not carry goods, does a 24 tonne forty odd year old lorry appear to be under that legislation ? I wouldn’t think so.
Mike-C:
Now ‘assuming’ its registered privately, and is not licensed to carry goods and does not carry goods, does a 24 tonne forty odd year old lorry appear to be under that legislation ? I wouldn’t think so.
For a start there is no concept of being “not licenced to carry goods”, merely “not licenced to carry goods for hire or reward or in conjunction with a business”, as that is the wording in the O-Licence rules. So, as per my previous post, no O-Licence does not IMO mean the vehicle is not carrying goods.
Secondly, as per my other recent post, there is no clear definition of what it means “to carry goods”. For example does that mean a completely empty lorry can be driven without needing to adhere to driver’s hours rules, but chucking a tent in the back for your weekend at a historic vehicle rally means you’re now “carrying goods” and therefore subject to the rules? There is, as far as I can tell, nothing in the regulations that clearly defines this, and therefore unless there is some case law somewhere that clarifies matters, we don’t know exactly what a “vehicle that carries goods” is defined as.
Paul
Mike-C:
Now ‘assuming’ its registered privately, and is not licensed to carry goods and does not carry goods, does a 24 tonne forty odd year old lorry appear to be under that legislation ? I wouldn’t think so.
A fourty odd year old lorry counts as a “historic vehicle” and is therefore definitely exempt from EU driver’s hours rules as it is clearly states as such in EC561/2006 Article 3(i).
Paul
repton:
Mike-C:
Now ‘assuming’ its registered privately, and is not licensed to carry goods and does not carry goods, does a 24 tonne forty odd year old lorry appear to be under that legislation ? I wouldn’t think so.
For a start there is no concept of being “not licenced to carry goods”, merely “not licenced to carry goods for hire or reward or in conjunction with a business”, as that is the wording in the O-Licence rules. So, as per my previous post, no O-Licence does not IMO mean the vehicle is not carrying goods.
You’re doing it again, why would you need wording from O licence rules if you don’t need an O licence, nor want to carry goods?
repton:
Secondly, as per my other recent post, there is no clear definition of what it means “to carry goods”. For example does that mean a completely empty lorry can be driven without needing to adhere to driver’s hours rules, but chucking a tent in the back for your weekend at a historic vehicle rally means you’re now “carrying goods” and therefore subject to the rules? There is, as far as I can tell, nothing in the regulations that clearly defines this, and therefore unless there is some case law somewhere that clarifies matters, we don’t know exactly what a “vehicle that carries goods” is defined as.
Paul
Oh there is a definition. Go carrying goods without a licence and you’ll find out easy enough what constitutes goods or not if you’re stopped.
I’ll give up about here thanks…i’m exempt !!! No one knows , who’d a thought !!! 
repton:
Mike-C:
Now ‘assuming’ its registered privately, and is not licensed to carry goods and does not carry goods, does a 24 tonne forty odd year old lorry appear to be under that legislation ? I wouldn’t think so.
A fourty odd year old lorry counts as a “historic vehicle” and is therefore definitely exempt from EU driver’s hours rules as it is clearly states as such in EC561/2006 Article 3(i).
Paul
If it carrys goods non commercially its exempt. If it doesnt carry goods its not even in scope of any drivers hours regulations. Simple.
Mike-C:
You’re doing it again, why would you need wording from O licence rules if you don’t need an O licence, nor want to carry goods?
Because you have claimed in this thread that a vehicle that is “not licenced to carry goods” (i.e. lack of an O-Licence) is exempt from driver’s hours rules. I am merely pointing out that you do not need to have an O-Licence merely to “carry goods” and therefore there is no concept in law of a vehicle that is “not licenced to carry goods”. It is perfectly legal to “carry goods” on a privately registered LGV with no O-Licence required, and there is no clear definition of what “carry goods” means. That makes it difficult to know for sure whether or not you’re “carrying goods” and therefore whether or not the EU Driver’s Hours Rules apply.
Mike-C:
Oh there is a definition. Go carrying goods without a licence and you’ll find out easy enough what constitutes goods or not if you’re stopped.
Yes that is all very well but I think some people might prefer to know the answer before they start their journey rather than be a test case in court…
Paul
repton:
Mike-C:
You’re doing it again, why would you need wording from O licence rules if you don’t need an O licence, nor want to carry goods?
Because you have claimed in this thread that a vehicle that is “not licenced to carry goods” (i.e. lack of an O-Licence) is exempt from driver’s hours rules.
Not quite i never, there are vehicles that do not require a licence and drivers do come under hours legislation. You asked…surely you can’t just say you don’t carry goods [in a HGV]? I’m saying if a HGV is not licenced to carry them, then it shouldn’t or can’t.
repton:
I am merely pointing out that you do not need to have an O-Licence merely to “carry goods” and therefore there is no concept in law of a vehicle that is “not licenced to carry goods”.
Ok, when your O licence runs out, take the disc out the window and carry on working the truck?
repton:
It is perfectly legal to “carry goods” on a privately registered LGV with no O-Licence required, and there is no clear definition of what “carry goods” means.
That makes it difficult to know for sure whether or not you’re “carrying goods” and therefore whether or not the EU Driver’s Hours Rules apply.
I don’t believe its legal to carry goods on a privately registered HGV without coming under some form of legislation. The reason i think this is that VOSA describe “goods” as “goods or burden of any description”.
repton:
Mike-C:
Oh there is a definition. Go carrying goods without a licence and you’ll find out easy enough what constitutes goods or not if you’re stopped.
Yes that is all very well but I think some people might prefer to know the answer before they start their journey rather than be a test case in court…
I agree, its important to get to the facts. So far we can establish that you need an operators licence to carry goods with a HGV. If you don’t carry goods or want to carry goods you don’t need one.
The drivers hours regs apply to the carriage by road of goods…
Note: no where does the legislation imply (like many horsebox sites etc.) that anything 7.5T or over requires use of a tachograph. Infact its so specific i’m amazed at why people look for ‘exemptions’ for vehicles that are not in scope of any regs.
Mike-C:
So far we can establish that you need an operators licence to carry goods with a HGV. If you don’t carry goods or want to carry goods you don’t need one.
No you don’t, this is my whole point. You do not need an operator’s licence to “carry goods”. You need an operator’s licence to “carry goods for hire or reward or in connection with a trade or business”. So if you are not carrying goods “for hire or reward” or “in connection with a trade or business” you can do so without requiring an operator’s licence.
Paul
repton:
Mike-C:
So far we can establish that you need an operators licence to carry goods with a HGV. If you don’t carry goods or want to carry goods you don’t need one.
No you don’t, this is my whole point. You do not need an operator’s licence to “carry goods”. You need an operator’s licence to “carry goods for hire or reward or in connection with a trade or business”. So if you are not carrying goods “for hire or reward” or “in connection with a trade or business” you can do so without requiring an operator’s licence.
Right, i understand you now. Unfortunatley EU regs 561/2006 make no such distinction, they just cite carriage of goods. If you carry goods you’ll come under the legislation.
Mike-C:
Right, i understand you now. Unfortunatley EU regs 561/2006 make no such distinction, they just cite carriage of goods. If you carry goods you’ll come under the legislation.
Indeed, we can agree on that certainly.
My problem is that the concept of “carrying goods” is not defined.
A quick look on dictionary.com gives one definition of “goods” as “possessions, especially movable effects or personal property”. A particularly awkward court could from this imply that your bag with your lunch in it counts as goods, for example. A more sensible one might be happy that you were not “carrying goods” if all you had in/on the vehicle was a few sandwiches.
It would certainly seem to be a bit of a grey area unless there is some case law that clarifies it that I have not found.
Paul
Well after a few weeks away I have finally caught up with the chaos i seem to have caused with this thread!
For me it seems quite clear for my lorry as it is over 25 years old as EC 561/2006 Section 3 (i) specifies “commercial vehicles which have a historic status according to the legislation of the member state in which they are being driven and which are used for the non-commercial carridge of passengers or goods”
Therefore it doesnt matter if i carry goods or not, as long as it is non-commercial.
j_turner023:
For me it seems quite clear for my lorry as it is over 25 years old
Yep for “historic” vehicles, i.e. over 25 years old, there is no grey area.
Paul