stevieboy308:
If you meet the criteria of what is deemed a driver, again even if there’s no intention to drive, then you must insert your card, if there’s more than 1 extra driver then only 1 can obviously put their card in slot 2, so they would be the one that takes over driving if it becomes necessary,…mind blown
Well firstly, its been stated that he will not be driving because he can not due to no insurance.
Secondly, in our scenario according to you we still have one driver who is not using the tacho to record work and apparently he can’t use a dairy so he is breaking the law. So it’s illegal to have 3 drivers in a truck but it’s fine to have two drivers and one ■■■■■■? (Assuming she doesn’t have a hgv license) #mindreblown
Mixed Working
If drivers work within scope of the Drivers’ Hours Regulations at any time during a week they must make a record of any other work carried out in the same week. For example, a driver drives an in-scope vehicle between Monday and Thursday and will therefore have tachograph charts for each day. If on the Friday the driver does not leave the depot and works as a yard shunter, he or she must produce records for that day.
The driver can provide the required record by producing:
manual records written on tachograph charts
manual records written on a printout from a digital tachograph
records made by using the manual input facility of a digital tachograph, or
a drivers’ record book for days working on the domestic drivers’ hours rules.
Now we could get into what a drivers record book is to me though it’s a diary.
Either way the plod are not going to fine you for not having your card in slot 2.
Clearly there is only 1 spare slot, so only 1 of the spare drivers can insert their card, mind-blowing, for some!
Read your own copy and paste again, but this time don’t miss out the part were it says you can use a drivers record book, a logbook for the old school, for when you have been subject to GB domestic.
If as per your example of working in an office, then that is not subject to GB domestic regs, so your only option, as I originally stated that you too can now see is manual entry, or written on a wax chart or printout.
If you are deemed a driver by the 561/2006 legislation definition of a driver and you haven’t got your card in, then it’s a £300 fpn level 4.
Would you like me to pull that up from the enforcement sanctions policy document?
You close to being right. Then you start talking about wax charts… You dont need to do that anymore.
Drivers logbook its basically a diary and is sold by most logistics suppliers google it. shop.logistics.org.uk/getattach … Sample.pdf
As for my point. It is either legal or illegal for a driver not to have a driver in a passenger seat without their card in.
The two drivers and a ■■■■■■ example just shows that if the law existed as you said then it would be stupid. As it would be legal to drive around with a spare driver and a ■■■■■■ but illegal to drive around with two spare drivers as only one could put his card in.
If not taking advantage of the multi-manning rules, there is nothing obligating the passenger to insert a card in slot 2 at any time.
The passenger could conceivably take over the driving and insert his/her card at that time and cover the activities so far with a manual entry. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I would add that you can insert your card if you want and you can even put it in slot 2 of a vehicle you are not licensed to drive.
I guess that’s how my company (£Billions) operates. It’s always a 2 man crew. The 2nd man could be a driver (but there is never any intention that he will drive that day) AFAIK the 2nd driver never inserts in slot 2 (not sure if it is forbidden by the company or just common practice).
I’ve not researched it any further because I am never the 2nd man.
N.b. the default POA for the 2nd slot would not be correct as they are always doing other work. (They always do a manual entry before the end of the shift)
Hope they don’t get stopped then, £300 fpn for not having your card in when you should
If they are carrying out other work as a passenger when the vehicle is moving, then the correct thing to do is do a printout to correct the mode used and it is not a reason not to put your card in.
shullbit:
On Gov website having read through the rules a driver is anyone who drives a vehicle or is carried on a vehicle in order TO BE AVAILABLE FOR DRIVING IF NECESSARY, so there it is in black and white, he would not be able to drive the vehicle due to no insurance so he would not be available for driving, so no legal need put card in…I rest my case!!!
I agree that there may be no LEGAL reason for him to put the card in.
Well I’m glad someone gets it.
For the record I’ve sat in many a passenger seat without putting my card in. I’ve also had driving examiners not put their cars in on my assesment when they probably should.
The law on this is grey for a reason. There are too many exemptions and odd scenarios.that tney can not cover everything so they make it vague.
End of the day as long as you record your work everyone will be happy. And If you plan on driving the vehicle at all put your card in
It is nothing to do with planning on driving, that is completely irrelevant, are you being carried in the vehicle to be available to drive it if it becomes necessary? If yes then whether you like it or not, agree with it or not, you are a driver for the EU regs and as a driver you must insert your card, failure to do so is a £300 fpn.
I don’t see why anyone would be anti putting your card in? Why turn something that is legal to something that’s not for the sake of not putting your card in, strange mentally.
shullbit:
On Gov website having read through the rules a driver is anyone who drives a vehicle or is carried on a vehicle in order TO BE AVAILABLE FOR DRIVING IF NECESSARY, so there it is in black and white, he would not be able to drive the vehicle due to no insurance so he would not be available for driving, so no legal need put card in…I rest my case!!!
I agree that there may be no LEGAL reason for him to put the card in.
However, much depends on established working practices at a particular employer. My previous firm would have insisted that the card be put in whether he was going to any work whatsoever; the alternative would have been to fill out a paper chart to cover the hours. Then again they were “by the book” to such an extent that even the driver trainer had to do that on all the days when he didn’t drive; something he moaned about on a regular basis but the rest of us thought was poetic justice on him.
Other firms would not give a toss. I really do not think DVSA would either, but if it were me, I would still put my card in to cover my ■■■ on the offchance that they did.
Also there is no requirement for the driver trainer to fill out a paper chart lol. That’s so outdated thesedays. tachodisc.co.uk/record-book … rivers-p67
Using these is completely legal in the eyes of the law
Although I’d maintain that a diary is just as good and legal
You’re wrong, a trainer or assessor other than for training to gain a licence or dcpc isn’t exempt from the EU regs, if they would drive it if becomes necessary, then they must insert their card.
They are not under GB domestic regs so the logbook you have posted up is of no use to them
He will be paid for the shift.
He will be helping with loading and other duties.
He will not be driving any other vehicles commercially this week (he has never driven before, new pass, this is his first job).
He holds all cards required to drive but will 100% not be driving as uninsured.
We will also be doing a night out (he gets a hotel).
This shift is tomorrow, starts work proper next Wednesday.
Will put his card in, but it looks like not legally required?
The only thing that would stop him legally having to put it in is that he’s not insured. Presuming that he’s licenced to drive that vehicle
But what would happen if if for whatever reason you couldn’t drive? Would they put him on the insurance and he’d drive, or would they send someone out to drive the truck?
If he’d drive then I’d say he should put his card in legally
If on the 1% chance he’s forced to drive then he can just do a manual entry.
yourhavingalarf:
adam277:
Well firstly, its been stated that he will not be driving because he can not due to no insurance.
That doesn’t…
Actually stop him from driving though. Whilst against the law and stupid, he can still ‘drive’ the vehicle.
If he’s stupid enough to drive without insurance I doubt tacho regs will bother him
No he can’t, a manual entry is not a legal way round not putting your card in.
If you ended up driving that’s proof you should have had your card in from the beginning.
He will be paid for the shift.
He will be helping with loading and other duties.
He will not be driving any other vehicles commercially this week (he has never driven before, new pass, this is his first job).
He holds all cards required to drive but will 100% not be driving as uninsured.
We will also be doing a night out (he gets a hotel).
This shift is tomorrow, starts work proper next Wednesday.
Will put his card in, but it looks like not legally required?
The only thing that would stop him legally having to put it in is that he’s not insured. Presuming that he’s licenced to drive that vehicle
But what would happen if if for whatever reason you couldn’t drive? Would they put him on the insurance and he’d drive, or would they send someone out to drive the truck?
If he’d drive then I’d say he should put his card in legally
If that happened then put his card in and do a manual entry back to the start of the shift. He had no expectation to drive as he wasn’t insured , cicrumstances changed ,it will be recorded by the insurance when he was added to the policy so a manual entry and the insurance details will be his "defence "if stopped .
But if you ended up driving then isn’t that proof that you should have had your card in from the beginning?
stevieboy308:
If you meet the criteria of what is deemed a driver, again even if there’s no intention to drive, then you must insert your card, if there’s more than 1 extra driver then only 1 can obviously put their card in slot 2, so they would be the one that takes over driving if it becomes necessary,…mind blown
Well firstly, its been stated that he will not be driving because he can not due to no insurance.
Secondly, in our scenario according to you we still have one driver who is not using the tacho to record work and apparently he can’t use a dairy so he is breaking the law. So it’s illegal to have 3 drivers in a truck but it’s fine to have two drivers and one ■■■■■■? (Assuming she doesn’t have a hgv license) #mindreblown
Mixed Working
If drivers work within scope of the Drivers’ Hours Regulations at any time during a week they must make a record of any other work carried out in the same week. For example, a driver drives an in-scope vehicle between Monday and Thursday and will therefore have tachograph charts for each day. If on the Friday the driver does not leave the depot and works as a yard shunter, he or she must produce records for that day.
The driver can provide the required record by producing:
manual records written on tachograph charts
manual records written on a printout from a digital tachograph
records made by using the manual input facility of a digital tachograph, or
a drivers’ record book for days working on the domestic drivers’ hours rules.
Now we could get into what a drivers record book is to me though it’s a diary.
Either way the plod are not going to fine you for not having your card in slot 2.
Clearly there is only 1 spare slot, so only 1 of the spare drivers can insert their card, mind-blowing, for some!
Read your own copy and paste again, but this time don’t miss out the part were it says you can use a drivers record book, a logbook for the old school, for when you have been subject to GB domestic.
If as per your example of working in an office, then that is not subject to GB domestic regs, so your only option, as I originally stated that you too can now see is manual entry, or written on a wax chart or printout.
If you are deemed a driver by the 561/2006 legislation definition of a driver and you haven’t got your card in, then it’s a £300 fpn level 4.
Would you like me to pull that up from the enforcement sanctions policy document?
You close to being right. Then you start talking about wax charts… You dont need to do that anymore.
Drivers logbook its basically a diary and is sold by most logistics suppliers google it. shop.logistics.org.uk/getattach … Sample.pdf
As for my point. It is either legal or illegal for a driver not to have a driver in a passenger seat without their card in.
The two drivers and a ■■■■■■ example just shows that if the law existed as you said then it would be stupid. As it would be legal to drive around with a spare driver and a ■■■■■■ but illegal to drive around with two spare drivers as only one could put his card in.
I’m that close to being right I used your copy and paste to prove I’m right!!
To the OP; the simplest solution would be to ask your line manager.
It’s a reasonable question to ask given the circumstances; you would then not only have definitive guidance but also somebody else to pass the buck to if anything goes wrong.
Truck one
1 driver
1 hgv driver passenger using slot 2
1 ■■■■■■
= Legal
Truck two
1 driver
2 hgv driver passengers but only one can use slot 2. And either one may feel the need to drive at some point.
=Illegal
This is your logic. It’s stupid.
Square this for me.
It’s either illegal to have two passengers who can at some point drive the truck or not. If so then it’s permissible not to use slot 2 and just do a manual entry.
I honestly want to know the answer to this lol.
There is no exception in the rules due to lack of tacho slots.
Edit: the fact that this question has lead to so much debate shows how stupid the current rules are. It should be clear.
stevieboy308:
But if you ended up driving then isn’t that proof that you should have had your card in from the beginning?
No because at the start of the shift you were not insured to drive - why would you put in a card if you had no reason to be driving ? In the event that halfway through a shift the driver becomes unwell / has an accident the company then puts you on the insurance and asks you to drive the truck home / finish the deliveries . Only at that point do you become a driver with a responsibility to record your days work which is covered by a manual entry .The insurance records will prove you could only drive from whatever time you were put on the insurance and were not able to drive at the start of the shift.
Truck one
1 driver
1 hgv driver passenger using slot 2
1 ■■■■■■
= Legal
Truck two
1 driver
2 hgv driver passengers but only one can use slot 2. And either one may feel the need to drive at some point.
=Illegal
This is your logic. It’s stupid.
Square this for me.
It’s either illegal to have two passengers who can at some point drive the truck or not. If so then it’s permissible not to use slot 2 and just do a manual entry.
I honestly want to know the answer to this lol.
There is no exception in the rules due to lack of tacho slots.
Edit: the fact that this question has lead to so much debate shows how stupid the current rules are. It should be clear.
If one has put their card in slot 2, then there’s nothing else you can do.
It is clear, if you’re classed as a driver you must insert your card, if there’s already 2 drivers then there’s nowhere for you to insert your card.
Come on, just like the penny dropped with your diary / logbook theory, you’ve got this, just think a little harder, I’ve got faith in you
stevieboy308:
But if you ended up driving then isn’t that proof that you should have had your card in from the beginning?
No because at the start of the shift you were not insured to drive - why would you put in a card if you had no reason to be driving ? In the event that halfway through a shift the driver becomes unwell / has an accident the company then puts you on the insurance and asks you to drive the truck home / finish the deliveries . Only at that point do you become a driver with a responsibility to record your days work which is covered by a manual entry .The insurance records will prove you could only drive from whatever time you were put on the insurance and were not able to drive at the start of the shift.
So you were being carried in the vehicle to be available to drive it if it becomes necessary, as when it did become necessary to drive it, if you end up driving then surely that’s pretty clear cut you met the definition of a driver so you must have your card in from the beginning
stevieboy308:
But if you ended up driving then isn’t that proof that you should have had your card in from the beginning?
No because at the start of the shift you were not insured to drive - why would you put in a card if you had no reason to be driving ? In the event that halfway through a shift the driver becomes unwell / has an accident the company then puts you on the insurance and asks you to drive the truck home / finish the deliveries . Only at that point do you become a driver with a responsibility to record your days work which is covered by a manual entry .The insurance records will prove you could only drive from whatever time you were put on the insurance and were not able to drive at the start of the shift.
So you were being carried in the vehicle to be available to drive it if it becomes necessary, as when it did become necessary to drive it, if you end up driving then surely that’s pretty clear cut you met the definition of a driver so you must have your card in from the beginning
when you started it wasn’t necessary - thats the key point here , when you started you were only along to learn the route / help not insured and unable to drive the truck - why would you put a card in given all that info ?
Early on in my career I learned never to stick my head above the parapet and to never draw unnecessary attention to myself. This scenario is a no brainer, just put the bloody card in and be done with it.
stevieboy308:
But if you ended up driving then isn’t that proof that you should have had your card in from the beginning?
No because at the start of the shift you were not insured to drive - why would you put in a card if you had no reason to be driving ? In the event that halfway through a shift the driver becomes unwell / has an accident the company then puts you on the insurance and asks you to drive the truck home / finish the deliveries . Only at that point do you become a driver with a responsibility to record your days work which is covered by a manual entry .The insurance records will prove you could only drive from whatever time you were put on the insurance and were not able to drive at the start of the shift.
So you were being carried in the vehicle to be available to drive it if it becomes necessary, as when it did become necessary to drive it, if you end up driving then surely that’s pretty clear cut you met the definition of a driver so you must have your card in from the beginning
when you started it wasn’t necessary - thats the key point here , when you started you were only along to learn the route / help not insured and unable to drive the truck - why would you put a card in given all that info ?
Again, intent to drive is completely irrelevant.
The legislation talks about being available to drive if it becomes necessary, so if you later end up driving, despite having no intention to, then clearly you were available to drive it once it became necessary by the fact you are driving it. So that means by the 561/2006 definition, you are a driver from the beginning of the shift and therefore as a driver you must insert your card.
Sidevalve:
To the OP; the simplest solution would be to ask your line manager.
It’s a reasonable question to ask given the circumstances; you would then not only have definitive guidance but also somebody else to pass the buck to if anything goes wrong.
