shullbit:
dvsa might reckon there is some sort of attempt to manipulate the double manning rules so as to abuse daily rest etc,
But that…
Would depend on if they’d done 21 hours in 30 on duty etc.
If stopped halfway through a shift, how will it look?
The “passenger” is sat there, with no current record, and an empty tacho slot.
.
Letter of the law, it maybe OK, but why make it hard?
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I can see no (legal) advantage to leaving the card out.
.
No insurance? One phone call and that can be sorted, surely his details will be there if he is coming on the next week.
I can see no legal advantage of putting the card in, he cannot legally drive the vehicle, common sense tells anyone with a brain there is no need to put his card in, to all intents and purposes on that one day alone he is a drivers mate, not a driver, he just needs to do a manual entry next time he drives. If you cannot legally drive a vehicle how can that vehicle be double manned under the rules, it cant, it just cant!!!
shullbit:
he just needs to do a manual entry next time he drives.
Therefore…
That’s an advantage of putting the card in. He won’t have to do a manual entry of the previous days shenanigans, all the shenanigans are already on the card.
If you meet the criteria of what is deemed a driver, again even if there’s no intention to drive, then you must insert your card, if there’s more than 1 extra driver then only 1 can obviously put their card in slot 2, so they would be the one that takes over driving if it becomes necessary,…mind blown
I don’t believe this is correct at all. You do have to have a card in slot 2 within an hour of the first driver setting off (or starting shift maybe) if taking advantage of the multi-manning rules.
If not taking advantage of the multi-manning rules, there is nothing obligating the passenger to insert a card in slot 2 at any time.
The passenger could conceivably take over the driving and insert his/her card at that time and cover the activities so far with a manual entry. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I would add that you can insert your card if you want and you can even put it in slot 2 of a vehicle you are not licensed to drive.
shullbit:
he just needs to do a manual entry next time he drives.
Therefore…
That’s an advantage of putting the card in. He won’t have to do a manual entry of the previous days shenanigans, all the shenanigans are already on the card.
Exactly. The only reason I can think of for him not wanting to put his card in would be that to do so would show that he has already exceeded his weekly shift pattern; in which case, according to the strict letter of the law, he shouldn’t be there anyway as he is not “free to dispose of his time as he pleases” or whatever the wording is. The more so if he’s helping with unloading.
shullbit:
he just needs to do a manual entry next time he drives.
Therefore…
That’s an advantage of putting the card in. He won’t have to do a manual entry of the previous days shenanigans, all the shenanigans are already on the card.
Stopped with no card in the conversation would go something like this Dvsa ‘‘Why is there no card in slot 2 driver?’’ ‘‘Well Sir, he is not insured to drive this vehicle so he is just a passenger’’ ‘‘ok driver, on your way.’’
And what’s so hard about doing a manual entry, and if he isn’t capable he can just use the question mark symbol and write the ‘‘shenanigans’’ in his diary, if it was me I definitely wouldn’t put my card in, absolutely no need
shullbit:
And what’s so hard about doing a manual entry
There isn’t…
Anything particularly difficult about doing a manual entry. But, it is the one area that, IMO, the majority of mistakes are made. There’s a thread already running here this morning that’s looking like a manual entry error. My last infringment was due to a manual error. On the Dcpc course (the bits I was actaully awake through), manual entries was the one subject that drivers wanted to know about.
It’s a bit of a chicken or egg discussion, there’s advantages and pitfalls for in or out.
On Gov website having read through the rules a driver is anyone who drives a vehicle or is carried on a vehicle in order TO BE AVAILABLE FOR DRIVING IF NECESSARY, so there it is in black and white, he would not be able to drive the vehicle due to no insurance so he would not be available for driving, so no legal need put card in…I rest my case!!!
If not taking advantage of the multi-manning rules, there is nothing obligating the passenger to insert a card in slot 2 at any time.
The passenger could conceivably take over the driving and insert his/her card at that time and cover the activities so far with a manual entry. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I would add that you can insert your card if you want and you can even put it in slot 2 of a vehicle you are not licensed to drive.
I guess that’s how my company (£Billions) operates. It’s always a 2 man crew. The 2nd man could be a driver (but there is never any intention that he will drive that day) AFAIK the 2nd driver never inserts in slot 2 (not sure if it is forbidden by the company or just common practice).
I’ve not researched it any further because I am never the 2nd man.
N.b. the default POA for the 2nd slot would not be correct as they are always doing other work. (They always do a manual entry before the end of the shift)
shullbit:
On Gov website having read through the rules a driver is anyone who drives a vehicle or is carried on a vehicle in order TO BE AVAILABLE FOR DRIVING IF NECESSARY, so there it is in black and white, he would not be able to drive the vehicle due to no insurance so he would not be available for driving, so no legal need put card in…I rest my case!!!
I agree that there may be no LEGAL reason for him to put the card in.
However, much depends on established working practices at a particular employer. My previous firm would have insisted that the card be put in whether he was going to any work whatsoever; the alternative would have been to fill out a paper chart to cover the hours. Then again they were “by the book” to such an extent that even the driver trainer had to do that on all the days when he didn’t drive; something he moaned about on a regular basis but the rest of us thought was poetic justice on him.
Other firms would not give a toss. I really do not think DVSA would either, but if it were me, I would still put my card in to cover my ■■■ on the offchance that they did.
shullbit:
On Gov website having read through the rules a driver is anyone who drives a vehicle or is carried on a vehicle in order TO BE AVAILABLE FOR DRIVING IF NECESSARY, so there it is in black and white, he would not be able to drive the vehicle due to no insurance so he would not be available for driving, so no legal need put card in…I rest my case!!!
I agree that there may be no LEGAL reason for him to put the card in.
Well I’m glad someone gets it.
For the record I’ve sat in many a passenger seat without putting my card in. I’ve also had driving examiners not put their cars in on my assesment when they probably should.
The law on this is grey for a reason. There are too many exemptions and odd scenarios.that tney can not cover everything so they make it vague.
End of the day as long as you record your work everyone will be happy. And If you plan on driving the vehicle at all put your card in
He will be paid for the shift.
He will be helping with loading and other duties.
He will not be driving any other vehicles commercially this week (he has never driven before, new pass, this is his first job).
He holds all cards required to drive but will 100% not be driving as uninsured.
We will also be doing a night out (he gets a hotel).
This shift is tomorrow, starts work proper next Wednesday.
Will put his card in, but it looks like not legally required?
The only thing that would stop him legally having to put it in is that he’s not insured. Presuming that he’s licenced to drive that vehicle
But what would happen if if for whatever reason you couldn’t drive? Would they put him on the insurance and he’d drive, or would they send someone out to drive the truck?
If he’d drive then I’d say he should put his card in legally
shullbit:
On Gov website having read through the rules a driver is anyone who drives a vehicle or is carried on a vehicle in order TO BE AVAILABLE FOR DRIVING IF NECESSARY, so there it is in black and white, he would not be able to drive the vehicle due to no insurance so he would not be available for driving, so no legal need put card in…I rest my case!!!
I agree that there may be no LEGAL reason for him to put the card in.
However, much depends on established working practices at a particular employer. My previous firm would have insisted that the card be put in whether he was going to any work whatsoever; the alternative would have been to fill out a paper chart to cover the hours. Then again they were “by the book” to such an extent that even the driver trainer had to do that on all the days when he didn’t drive; something he moaned about on a regular basis but the rest of us thought was poetic justice on him.
Other firms would not give a toss. I really do not think DVSA would either, but if it were me, I would still put my card in to cover my ■■■ on the offchance that they did.
Also there is no requirement for the driver trainer to fill out a paper chart lol. That’s so outdated thesedays. tachodisc.co.uk/record-book … rivers-p67
Using these is completely legal in the eyes of the law
Although I’d maintain that a diary is just as good and legal
He will be paid for the shift.
He will be helping with loading and other duties.
He will not be driving any other vehicles commercially this week (he has never driven before, new pass, this is his first job).
He holds all cards required to drive but will 100% not be driving as uninsured.
We will also be doing a night out (he gets a hotel).
This shift is tomorrow, starts work proper next Wednesday.
Will put his card in, but it looks like not legally required?
The only thing that would stop him legally having to put it in is that he’s not insured. Presuming that he’s licenced to drive that vehicle
But what would happen if if for whatever reason you couldn’t drive? Would they put him on the insurance and he’d drive, or would they send someone out to drive the truck?
If he’d drive then I’d say he should put his card in legally
If on the 1% chance he’s forced to drive then he can just do a manual entry.
yourhavingalarf:
adam277:
Well firstly, its been stated that he will not be driving because he can not due to no insurance.
That doesn’t…
Actually stop him from driving though. Whilst against the law and stupid, he can still ‘drive’ the vehicle.
If he’s stupid enough to drive without insurance I doubt tacho regs will bother him
He will be paid for the shift.
He will be helping with loading and other duties.
He will not be driving any other vehicles commercially this week (he has never driven before, new pass, this is his first job).
He holds all cards required to drive but will 100% not be driving as uninsured.
We will also be doing a night out (he gets a hotel).
This shift is tomorrow, starts work proper next Wednesday.
Will put his card in, but it looks like not legally required?
The only thing that would stop him legally having to put it in is that he’s not insured. Presuming that he’s licenced to drive that vehicle
But what would happen if if for whatever reason you couldn’t drive? Would they put him on the insurance and he’d drive, or would they send someone out to drive the truck?
If he’d drive then I’d say he should put his card in legally
If that happened then put his card in and do a manual entry back to the start of the shift. He had no expectation to drive as he wasn’t insured , cicrumstances changed ,it will be recorded by the insurance when he was added to the policy so a manual entry and the insurance details will be his "defence "if stopped .
stevieboy308:
If he is being carried in the vehicle as part of his duties to drive it if it becomes necessary, then he is classed as a driver and needs to insert his card.
Intent to drive or not is irrelevant.
If you injured yourself and couldn’t drive, would he drive or would they send someone else out to drive it back?
If he’s not insured then he can’t drive it.
However if it were me in the passenger seat, what is to be gained by not putting it in? I’d probably put it as it’d probably make things easier if stopped, it’s a £300 fpn for not inserting it when you have to, if the officer thinks you should it’s either pay the fine or go to court if you can’t convince them they are wrong.
Yes, but what is THE LAW, i think that is what the OP needs to know, what does the law say.
My opinion, i wouldnt put the card in as i am not insured to drive, so it cannot be run as a double manned shift, i would just be a drivers mate, and do a manual entry next time i drive a vehicle
My 1st paragraph is the law
‘‘part of his duties to drive’’ he cannot drive because he isn’t insured, so no need to put card in, i reckon…and if he did put his card in, who knows. dvsa might reckon there is some sort of attempt to manipulate the double manning rules so as to abuse daily rest etc, because the guy in the drivers seat is not legally allowed to drive that vehicle.
That’s exactly what I said in my 1st post, if not insured and definitely won’t be driving it then he doesn’t need to put his card in.
However I think it would be the best thing to do.
Nope, if his card remains in slot 2 there can be no manipulation of multi Manning to abuse daily rest, I can’t see any scenario that him putting his card in would go against him
stevieboy308:
If you meet the criteria of what is deemed a driver, again even if there’s no intention to drive, then you must insert your card, if there’s more than 1 extra driver then only 1 can obviously put their card in slot 2, so they would be the one that takes over driving if it becomes necessary,…mind blown
Well firstly, its been stated that he will not be driving because he can not due to no insurance.
Secondly, in our scenario according to you we still have one driver who is not using the tacho to record work and apparently he can’t use a dairy so he is breaking the law. So it’s illegal to have 3 drivers in a truck but it’s fine to have two drivers and one ■■■■■■? (Assuming she doesn’t have a hgv license) #mindreblown
Mixed Working
If drivers work within scope of the Drivers’ Hours Regulations at any time during a week they must make a record of any other work carried out in the same week. For example, a driver drives an in-scope vehicle between Monday and Thursday and will therefore have tachograph charts for each day. If on the Friday the driver does not leave the depot and works as a yard shunter, he or she must produce records for that day.
The driver can provide the required record by producing:
manual records written on tachograph charts
manual records written on a printout from a digital tachograph
records made by using the manual input facility of a digital tachograph, or
a drivers’ record book for days working on the domestic drivers’ hours rules.
Now we could get into what a drivers record book is to me though it’s a diary.
Either way the plod are not going to fine you for not having your card in slot 2.
Clearly there is only 1 spare slot, so only 1 of the spare drivers can insert their card, mind-blowing, for some!
Read your own copy and paste again, but this time don’t miss out the part were it says you can use a drivers record book, a logbook for the old school, for when you have been subject to GB domestic.
If as per your example of working in an office, then that is not subject to GB domestic regs, so your only option, as I originally stated that you too can now see is manual entry, or written on a wax chart or printout.
If you are deemed a driver by the 561/2006 legislation definition of a driver and you haven’t got your card in, then it’s a £300 fpn level 4.
Would you like me to pull that up from the enforcement sanctions policy document?
idrive:
He will be paid for the shift.
He will be helping with loading and other duties.
He will not be driving any other vehicles commercially this week (he has never driven before, new pass, this is his first job).
He holds all cards required to drive but will 100% not be driving as uninsured.
We will also be doing a night out (he gets a hotel).
This shift is tomorrow, starts work proper next Wednesday.
Will put his card in, but it looks like not legally required?
As he cannot legally drive the vehicle he’s not legally required to use his driver card.
However as he’s presumably never used a tachograph before, if he does use his driver card it may help him to get the feel of changing modes when he has breaks or is helping with the loading/unloading, I know it’s very limited tachograph experience but may help him to get into the habit of changing activity modes when required.
If you meet the criteria of what is deemed a driver, again even if there’s no intention to drive, then you must insert your card, if there’s more than 1 extra driver then only 1 can obviously put their card in slot 2, so they would be the one that takes over driving if it becomes necessary,…mind blown
I don’t believe this is correct at all. You do have to have a card in slot 2 within an hour of the first driver setting off (or starting shift maybe) if taking advantage of the multi-manning rules.
If not taking advantage of the multi-manning rules, there is nothing obligating the passenger to insert a card in slot 2 at any time.
The passenger could conceivably take over the driving and insert his/her card at that time and cover the activities so far with a manual entry. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I would add that you can insert your card if you want and you can even put it in slot 2 of a vehicle you are not licensed to drive.
It’s completely correct and doing what you’re suggesting is legal could cost someone £300 if stopped.
If you are mm you must put your card in before to vehicle moves with you in it as the 2nd driver.
The 1 hour allows the 1st driver to collect a 2nd driver on route, it doesn’t all the 2nd driver to sit there for the 1sy hour without their card in
A manual entry at the point he was required to drive is not acceptable
