Driver Hours/WTD

NEW AND WANNABE DRIVERS (INTERACTIVE)
1

I passed my Class2 test in October this year, and I have recently started my first HGV job working Class 2 at a local distribution centre and I have a some questions regarding Driver Hours & WTD.

Some background first - I’m working a 4 on 2 off shift pattern and so far I have been starting at 1am each day. The company I work for pay additional hourly rates for a Saturday and Sunday shift, however the Saturday shift starts at 1am on Sunday and the Sunday shift starts at 1am on the Monday. (I believe the shifts actually start at 10pm the same day but I have started all mine at 1am the following morning)

I understand the rules around daily rest periods being 45 mins for every 4.5 hours driving (or split 15/30), I also understand that daily rest periods are 11 hours which can be reduced to 9 hours 3 times per week. In addition I know that WTD says that up to 6 hours work requires a 15 minute break, 6-9 requires 30 mins and above 9 requires 45 mins.
Also, I’m aware that a tacho week is 00:00 Monday to 23:59 Sunday. If my understanding on any of this is incorrect then please let me know.

So far I have worked…
Day 1 - Sunday shift (starting 1am Monday) 01:00 - 14:30 - 13.5 hours (10.5 hours rest)
Day 2 - Monday shift (starting 1am Tuesday) 01:00 - 14:30 - 13.5 hours (10.5 hours rest)
Day 3 - Tuesday shift (starting 1am Wednesday) 01:00 - 15:00 - 14 hours (10 hours rest)
Day 4 - Wednesday shift (starting 1am Thursday) 01:00 - 14:00 - 13 hours (59 hours rest)
Day 5 - Thursday shift day off
Day 6 - Friday shift day off
Day 7 - Saturday shift (starting 1am Sunday) 01:00 - 15:00 - 14 hours (10 hours rest)
Day 8 - Sunday shift (starting 1am Monday) 01:00 - 15:45 - 14.75 hours (9.25 hours rest)
Day 9 - I am now down to start again tomorrow at 1am but obviously don’t know what time I’ll finish

I don’t mind the hours as we are paid for every hour at work (even breaks) but wanted to give as much detail as possible to get the best answers. :slight_smile:

My questions are:

Considering how my shifts work, what is the working week for reduced breaks? In other words when does the period for taking 3 reduced daily rest periods begin and end? And obviously have I broken the rules for reduced daily rest periods with the work I have done so far? I think I may have done! :blush:

Can you combine the WTD break and the 45 minute driving break? So if I take a 45 minute break after 4.5 hours driving does that also count towards my working break?

If they can be combined and I have a 45 minute driving break, does that also count towards the 45 minutes required for over 9 hours working, even if I have only been at work for example for 6 hours?

Any answers, as always, are appreciated in advance.

2

Also, today’s shift - day 8 - was in a Transit van, so no tacho.

3

My questions are:

Considering how my shifts work, what is the working week for reduced breaks? In other words when does the period for taking 3 reduced daily rest periods begin and end? And obviously have I broken the rules for reduced daily rest periods with the work I have done so far? I think I may have done! :blush:

The 3 reduced daily rest rule resets every time you take at least 24 hours off in one go (reduced daily rest)

Can you combine the WTD break and the 45 minute driving break? So if I take a 45 minute break after 4.5 hours driving does that also count towards my working break?

YES

If they can be combined and I have a 45 minute driving break, does that also count towards the 45 minutes required for over 9 hours working, even if I have only been at work for example for 6 hours?

YES- but remember the 6 hour rule = at no point in a shift can you work more than 6 hours without a 15 min break

4

Thanks ROG.

So theoretically, I could have 3 reduced breaks between 4 shifts, then have a day off and then work 4 more days with reduced breaks. So 4 reduced breaks in a 7 day period, as I seem to have done in my first week?

5

chris2105gb:
Thanks ROG.

So theoretically, I could have 3 reduced breaks between 4 shifts, then have a day off and then work 4 more days with reduced breaks. So 4 reduced breaks in a 7 day period, as I seem to have done in my first week?

YES

It is possible to do this over every two weeks
START
sat off
sun off
mon/tue/wed reduced
thu off
fri/sat/sun reduced
mon off
tue/wed/thu reduced
fri regular
BACK TO START

6

Cheers, that puts my mind at ease.

7

I’m having a go at answering before reading any of the other replies to test myself :smiley:
First off, you have given no info on Driving time so I will assume you are complying with the 9 hrs per day (or 10 no more than twice in a calendar week) (your 4:2 pattern should limit that 9/10 to 44 per week so should be OK as no more than 90 per fortnight)

chris2105gb:
I understand the rules around daily rest periods being 45 mins for every 4.5 hours driving (or split 15/30), I also understand that daily rest periods are 11 hours which can be reduced to 9 hours 3 times per week.

yes, so in every 4 day week YOU can have 9 hrs reduced rest for all 3 of them.

In addition I know that WTD says that up to 6 hours work requires a 15 minute break,

you’ve phrased that wrong, as if you don’t go over 6 hrs, then you didn’t need any break, but you do need 15 mins before you exceed 6 hrs.

6-9 requires 30 mins and above 9 requires 45 mins.

the 30 and 45 are in total for the day, but you also need to be sure that at no point do you exceed any 6 hr period without at least a 15 min break

Also, I’m aware that a tacho week is 00:00 Monday to 23:59 Sunday. If my understanding on any of this is incorrect then please let me know.

So far I have worked…
Day 1 - Sunday shift (starting 1am Monday) 01:00 - 14:30 - 13.5 hours (10.5 hours rest)
Day 2 - Monday shift (starting 1am Tuesday) 01:00 - 14:30 - 13.5 hours (10.5 hours rest)
Day 3 - Tuesday shift (starting 1am Wednesday) 01:00 - 15:00 - 14 hours (10 hours rest)
Day 4 - Wednesday shift (starting 1am Thursday) 01:00 - 14:00 - 13 hours (59 hours rest)
Day 5 - Thursday shift day off
Day 6 - Friday shift day off
Day 7 - Saturday shift (starting 1am Sunday) 01:00 - 15:00 - 14 hours (10 hours rest)

so at this point you’ve done 68 hrs and WTD says you can’t exceed 60 hrs in any Mon to Sun week but you can deduct your breaks and POA from the 68. But it’s no more than 48 hrs on average each calendar week - you will blow this out of the water! You’ll have to speak to your employer as to how to deal with it unless you have loads of POA?

Day 8 - Sunday shift (starting 1am Monday) 01:00 - 15:45 - 14.75 hours (9.25 hours rest)
Day 9 - I am now down to start again tomorrow at 1am but obviously don’t know what time I’ll finish

I don’t mind the hours as we are paid for every hour at work (even breaks) but wanted to give as much detail as possible to get the best answers. :slight_smile:

My questions are:

Considering how my shifts work, what is the working week for reduced breaks? In other words when does the period for taking 3 reduced daily rest periods begin and end?

My understanding is that it is reset after each weekly rest (which is 45 hrs or could be reduced to 24 hrs) so everytime you have 2 days off you get 3 reduced rests available for the next 4 working days

And obviously have I broken the rules for reduced daily rest periods with the work I have done so far? I think I may have done! :blush:

No, you haven’t but your running close or over the WTD (which is less serious)

Can you combine the WTD break and the 45 minute driving break?

Yes

So if I take a 45 minute break after 4.5 hours driving does that also count towards my working break?

Yes

If they can be combined and I have a 45 minute driving break, does that also count towards the 45 minutes required for over 9 hours working, even if I have only been at work for example for 6 hours?

yes, but you work 14 hrs a day, after 6 hrs plus 45 min break, you’ve still got 7 hrs and 15mins left so you’ll need to take a further 15 mins rest less than 6 hrs later.

Any answers, as always, are appreciated in advance.

Time for me to read your other replies and see how I did :smiley: but in summary I imagine your working day to be 15 mins break before 6 hrs work, another 30 mins break before 4.5 hrs driving, another 15 min break before 6 hrs work, another 30 mins break before 4.5 hrs driving.
9 hrs min rest between each of your 4 days, with your 2 days off to reset that. Some how deal with 48 hrs average WTD?

8

chris2105gb:
Also, today’s shift - day 8 - was in a Transit van, so no tacho.

That’s a problem! It means you’re under domestic regulations and require 13 hr rest. Max 11 hr shift.
gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules

9

stu675:

chris2105gb:
Also, today’s shift - day 8 - was in a Transit van, so no tacho.

That’s a problem! It means you’re under domestic regulations and require 13 hr rest. Max 11 hr shift.
gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules

What?
It’s not an LGV, the time in the van doesn’t count towards driving time anywhere. It is duty time under EU regs because he is already on EU regs that week.
Nothing to do with UK Domestic rules.
.
If he was driving an LGV under UK Domestic rules and under EU rules in the same week, then it does alter things.
This is not the case as written, and you’re just confusing things.

10

From the answers so far, I think I’m ok. I’ve been double manned everyday so far, so lots of POA either while not driving or waiting for delivery times.

11

Franglais:

stu675:

chris2105gb:
Also, today’s shift - day 8 - was in a Transit van, so no tacho.

That’s a problem! It means you’re under domestic regulations and require 13 hr rest. Max 11 hr shift.
gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules

What?
It’s not an LGV, the time in the van doesn’t count towards driving time anywhere. It is duty time under EU regs because he is already on EU regs that week.
Nothing to do with UK Domestic rules.
.
If he was driving an LGV under UK Domestic rules and under EU rules in the same week, then it does alter things.
This is not the case as written, and you’re just confusing things.

I reckon Chris should read this gov.uk/drivers-hours/drivin … stic-rules
And make his own mind up.
But, firstly, a vauxhall Corsa van would be covered under the UK Domestic rules.
You can’t just say that EU rules apply for the whole week.

12

Where did the UK domestic rest rules come from :question:

13

ROG:
Where did the UK domestic rest rules come from :question:

Good luck finding that out.

14

I don’t think the domestic rules are aligned as much with 24 hour periods. Yeah, 11 hour duty is correct, but not so sure about the 13 hours rest that a member stated.

When considering the domestic rules, there are any number of van drivers bombing it up and down the country at any one time completely ignoring these rules. Essentially because there is no tachograph unit in the vehicles. If stopped it is quite difficult to prove anything. I suppose if one of these drivers was ever involved in an accident (for example falling asleep at the wheel), then it could come out in the wash through investigation.

I would say the 14.75 hour day probably was a breach of the domestic rules. In terms of defence an employee being asked to do something well in excess of what is allowed could justifiably point to his employer who made the request, as a mitigating factor.

Happy to be corrected by the way! Haven’t delved too deep into the details.

15

ROG:
Where did the UK domestic rest rules come from :question:

What are you asking?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

16

Noremac:
I don’t think the domestic rules are aligned as much with 24 hour periods. Yeah, 11 hour duty is correct, but not so sure about the 13 hours rest that a member stated.
.

Thanks! You’re right! 10 hrs rest (can be reduced to 8.5 hrs up to 3 times a week)
Looks like the rumour mill at my work is mistaken.

17

stu675:

Noremac:
I don’t think the domestic rules are aligned as much with 24 hour periods. Yeah, 11 hour duty is correct, but not so sure about the 13 hours rest that a member stated.
.

Thanks! You’re right! 10 hrs rest (can be reduced to 8.5 hrs up to 3 times a week)
Looks like the rumour mill at my work is mistaken.

Where did you get that info from?

Is that PCV domestic driving info?

18

ROG:

stu675:

Noremac:
I don’t think the domestic rules are aligned as much with 24 hour periods. Yeah, 11 hour duty is correct, but not so sure about the 13 hours rest that a member stated.
.

Thanks! You’re right! 10 hrs rest (can be reduced to 8.5 hrs up to 3 times a week)
Looks like the rumour mill at my work is mistaken.

Where did you get that info from?

Is that PCV domestic driving info?

It was following the link I’ve posted to the gov site, but looking again I can’t find it only reference to “adequate” rest which is obviously why you’ve pulled me up. But it was there somewhere.

19

"Daily rest periods

You must take a rest of 10 hours before the first duty and immediately after the last duty in a working week.

You must take a rest of at least 10 hours between 2 working days (or spreadovers) - this can be reduced to 8.5 hours up to 3 times a week.

gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules

20

Rest and breaks

Whilst the GB domestic rules make no specific provision for rest periods or breaks, employers are required, under The Working Time Regulations 1998, to ensure that drivers have ‘adequate rest’ (which includes adequate breaks). Adequate rest is defined as being long and continuous enough to ensure that a driver does not harm themselves, fellow workers or others and that they do not damage their health in the long or short term. Taking “adequate rest” means a driver’s personal circumstances need be considered when scheduling duty and driving periods. See the information in Annex 2 at ‘Driving under the GB domestic drivers’ hours rules (or are an occasional mobile worker)’.

gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … stic-rules

Not sure which of these 2 contradictory statements apply?

Edit: looking again, that 10 hrs /8.5 hrs seems to be just apply to the PCV section

Thanks ROG for helping me work it out!