Driver CPC. quick question

[wheel_nut]

weeto:

Wheel Nut:

dieseldave:

truckuk:
Unfortunately I cannot agree with the statement that all periodic training attendance must be counted as ‘other work’, …

I would therefore be prepared to argue that the time spent on the training course is not in this case ‘other work’.

Hi truckuk,
This might be a pointer…

The awarding body for drivers’ ADR certificates in the UK is SQA, on behalf of the DfT.
Some ADR providers have also accredited their ADR course with JAUPT for either 7, 14, 21 or 28 DCPC hours.

Whatever JAUPT’s view on this question is, the following is true nevertheless:

SQA publishes a Manual of Practice for ADR training providers, and adherence to the manual is a frequently checked prerequisite of holding a provider’s licence.

Section 7.11 of the manual says this:

Attendance at courses is a legal requirement and training providers must make trainees and their employers aware of the requirements of the drivers’ hours regulations. Time spent attending a course is likely to affect the amount of driving or other work they may undertake under the drivers’ hours regulations.

Section 9.1 of the Manual says this:

Providers must inform drivers and employers that the course requires the driver to be on duty, and the implications of this for the driver’s hours regulations.

Whenever I’m asked about this by guys on an ADR course, I always refer them to the relevant person in their company who monitors and controls their driver’s hours because I’m there to teach them ADR and not to become derailed by non-ADR stuff.

I believe in this case we should be following the letter of the law to the letter, not just if it suits, Steve

If you are required by your employer to attend a training session (i.e. a module of Driver CPC periodic training) then that time should be added to your drivers’ hours record as ‘other work’ if you are to follow the letter of the law and keep a true record.

This was taken from Truckuk website.

This “quick” question was asked of VOSA several months ago and this is the reply I received:

Dear Mr Nut

This is a complex area and it does depend on the individual circumstances. Where an operator undertakes in-house CPC training or pays for external training within normal working hours, then this is most likely to be construed as ‘working time’. However, if CPC training is undertaken by employees outside of normal working hours this would probably not be construed as working time if it is entirely voluntary.

A weekly rest under the EU drivers’ hours rules (Regulation 561/2006) must be an uninterrupted period where a driver may freely dispose of his time. Time spent working under obligation or instruction cannot be counted as rest. Drivers can of course take a reduced weekly rest of 24 hours but not on consecutive weekends.

Ultimately of course, it is for the Courts to interpret the legislation. I hope this helps though.

Kind regards

I believe the courts have already interpreted the legislation by stating that time taken doing the ADR must be counted as working time.

As ADR is a compulsory set format, as is JAUPT DCPC Training. I cannot see how it can be treated any differently.

You believe, or has there been an actual case.

Your quote above mine, has nothing to do with the EU tachograph legislation, that only mentions the RTD WTD.

As for your question about an actual case comes under this.

Please note that time spent attending the ADR course will count as duty time under Driver Hours Law Regulations 561/2006.

The ADR training and exams must be spent in a classroom and run to a strict format that is approved by the DFT

The DQC must also be taken in a strict environment with a minimum 7 hours in the classroom.

I don’t see any difference between the two

[weeto]

Right a few pointers, and just to be clear i am refering to a driver self funding, I understand were an employer is paying things could be different.

1. Re your reply from VOSA, they are admiting to being clueless on the matter, but they do say that it depends on circumstances, and say a court would have to decide wether its counts or not.
   Now since there is no evidence of any court cases with successful prosecutions, this is still open to interpretation.

2. SQA’s training manual also dont make it clear or state any rule or regulation to say it would count.
   Section7.11says, it is “LIKELY” to affect working/driving hours, but they dont say it “WILL” big difference.
   These are only guidelines for trainers, not law.

3.Could you tell me were this “Please note that time spent attending the ADR course will count as duty time under Driver Hours Law Regulations 561/2006.” came from? This doesnt refer to a court case, its a quote.

thanks.

[weeto]

ROG:

weeto:
Sorry to be a [zb], but that highlighted bit to me, really doesn’t explain that doing DCPC on a Saturday youve payed for your self counts towards WTD.

Does the dcpc being undertaken in any way fulfil the legal or regulatory obligations directly linked to the specific transport operation under way ?

I can see that the driver must legally do the dcpc and that is deffo linked to the transport operation because there is no transport operation with out drivers

Perhaps you could explain how it is not?

If I was funding the course my self it wouldn’t, because I would have to satisfy the criterea in the first paragraph ie clocked on at work under instruction by my employer.
Only then would sub paragraph (v) come into effect.

[wheel_nut]

weeto:
Right a few pointers, and just to be clear i am refering to a driver self funding, I understand were an employer is paying things could be different.

1. Re your reply from VOSA, they are admiting to being clueless on the matter, but they do say that it depends on circumstances, and say a court would have to decide wether its counts or not.
   Now since there is no evidence of any court cases with successful prosecutions, this is still open to interpretation.

2. SQA’s training manual also dont make it clear or state any rule or regulation to say it would count.
   Section7.11says, it is “LIKELY” to affect working/driving hours, but they dont say it “WILL” big difference.
   These are only guidelines for trainers, not law.

3.Could you tell me were this “Please note that time spent attending the ADR course will count as duty time under Driver Hours Law Regulations 561/2006.” came from? This doesnt refer to a court case, its a quote.

thanks.

The full quote from SQA

Attendance at courses is a legal requirement and training providers must make trainees and their employers aware of the requirements of the drivers’ hours regulations if courses are undertaken at weekends or on drivers’ rest days. Time spent attending a course will probably affect the amount of driving or other work they may undertake under the drivers’ hours regulations.

My quote came from another trainers manual, as you say will or likely have two meanings.

My scenario to debate.
You drive for ABC logistics from Thursday afternoon to Tuesday lunchtime and take your weekly rest on Wednesday This gives you 45 hours each week as a rest period. Your mate works for CBA Transport on the next industrial estate, he has arranged for you to meet the transport manager after your last shift as there is a job coming up.

The TM interviews you and you do a short test on drivers hours and load security. He then asks you to do an assessment drive with their trainer. The lorry is empty and you are not being being paid as it is in your own time. Would you put your digital card in the VU?

[weeto]

Wheel Nut:

weeto:
Right a few pointers, and just to be clear i am refering to a driver self funding, I understand were an employer is paying things could be different.

1. Re your reply from VOSA, they are admiting to being clueless on the matter, but they do say that it depends on circumstances, and say a court would have to decide wether its counts or not.
   Now since there is no evidence of any court cases with successful prosecutions, this is still open to interpretation.

2. SQA’s training manual also dont make it clear or state any rule or regulation to say it would count.
   Section7.11says, it is “LIKELY” to affect working/driving hours, but they dont say it “WILL” big difference.
   These are only guidelines for trainers, not law.

3.Could you tell me were this “Please note that time spent attending the ADR course will count as duty time under Driver Hours Law Regulations 561/2006.” came from? This doesnt refer to a court case, its a quote.

thanks.

The full quote from SQA

Attendance at courses is a legal requirement and training providers must make trainees and their employers aware of the requirements of the drivers’ hours regulations if courses are undertaken at weekends or on drivers’ rest days. Time spent attending a course will probably affect the amount of driving or other work they may undertake under the drivers’ hours regulations.

My quote came from another trainers manual, as you say will or likely have two meanings.

My scenario to debate.
You drive for ABC logistics from Thursday afternoon to Tuesday lunchtime and take your weekly rest on Wednesday This gives you 45 hours each week as a rest period. Your mate works for CBA Transport on the next industrial estate, he has arranged for you to meet the transport manager after your last shift as there is a job coming up.

The TM interviews you and you do a short test on drivers hours and load security. He then asks you to do an assessment drive with their trainer. The lorry is empty and you are not being being paid as it is in your own time. Would you put your digital card in the VU?

Well on this discussion, you have presented a bad example because you and I already know the legal answer to that.
What I want to see is a section of the regulations saying that a course I take on my weekly rest would count as work time, because I have not been presented with any yet.

[wheel_nut]

weeto:

Wheel Nut:

weeto:
Right a few pointers, and just to be clear i am refering to a driver self funding, I understand were an employer is paying things could be different.

1. Re your reply from VOSA, they are admiting to being clueless on the matter, but they do say that it depends on circumstances, and say a court would have to decide wether its counts or not.
   Now since there is no evidence of any court cases with successful prosecutions, this is still open to interpretation.

2. SQA’s training manual also dont make it clear or state any rule or regulation to say it would count.
   Section7.11says, it is “LIKELY” to affect working/driving hours, but they dont say it “WILL” big difference.
   These are only guidelines for trainers, not law.

3.Could you tell me were this “Please note that time spent attending the ADR course will count as duty time under Driver Hours Law Regulations 561/2006.” came from? This doesnt refer to a court case, its a quote.

thanks.

The full quote from SQA

Attendance at courses is a legal requirement and training providers must make trainees and their employers aware of the requirements of the drivers’ hours regulations if courses are undertaken at weekends or on drivers’ rest days. Time spent attending a course will probably affect the amount of driving or other work they may undertake under the drivers’ hours regulations.

My quote came from another trainers manual, as you say will or likely have two meanings.

My scenario to debate.
You drive for ABC logistics from Thursday afternoon to Tuesday lunchtime and take your weekly rest on Wednesday This gives you 45 hours each week as a rest period. Your mate works for CBA Transport on the next industrial estate, he has arranged for you to meet the transport manager after your last shift as there is a job coming up.

The TM interviews you and you do a short test on drivers hours and load security. He then asks you to do an assessment drive with their trainer. The lorry is empty and you are not being being paid as it is in your own time. Would you put your digital card in the VU?

Well on this discussion, you have presented a bad example because you and I already know the legal answer to that.
What I want to see is a section of the regulations saying that a course I take on my weekly rest would count as work time, because I have not been presented with any yet.

Watch this space. I have asked questions in the House, my local MP, and the DSA, as well as our friend Ms Bell. One of them is bound to reply otherwise I will go to Strasbourg with the bit between my false teeth.

[weeto]

Well, there isnt much point asking VOSA, because they just contradict them selves, like they have done in this post, as in.

VOSA Training Officer in April 02 wrote:
Put simply, it doesn’t matter where the dCPC training is undertaken or whether the driver is being paid to attend the course or who pays the course fees; driver or employer, the course time cannot be counted as rest under the EU drivers hours rules.
If you want the detail. EC 561 gives the definitions of; driving time, other work, rest and break. As we all know, ‘rest’ is the period during which a driver may freely dispose of his (or her) time. Being on a compulsory training course doesn’t fit with that definition. ‘Break,’ cannot be claimed as a driver cannot do any ‘driving’ or ‘work’ on a break.

And.

Dear Mr Nut

This is a complex area and it does depend on the individual circumstances. Where an operator undertakes in-house CPC training or pays for external training within normal working hours, then this is most likely to be construed as ‘working time’. However, if CPC training is undertaken by employees outside of normal working hours this would probably not be construed as working time if it is entirely voluntary.

As usual VOSA make stuff up to suit them selves haha.

[ex_reme_mech]

The official DSA guide to the Driver CPC has a paragraph which says something like “If you are being paid by an employer you may need to count this time as working time” or something like that.

Last DCPC I went on the trainer simply said it may count as working time and we should ask our boss what he thinks. he did suggest it was probably wise to count the weekend as a reduced weekly rest. if we weren’t able to take a reduced weekly rest we should go home and he offered a full refund.

I reckon until it goes to court there will be different views.

if I was being paid or sent on the course by my employer I would claim it was working time. if I just book the course myself and my employer knows nowt about it - I’m happy not to record it anywhere and class it as free to dispose of my time doing what I want

[weeto]

Are we any further forward on proving the fact that VOSA talks ■■■■?

[coffeeholic]

weeto:
Are we any further forward on proving the fact that VOSA talks [zb]?

You can’t prove a negative.* It’s work related so it can’t be rest.

No different to the OD who works Monday to Saturday then spends Sunday doing a bit of maintenance on the vehicle and then his bookkeeping before going back to work on Monday. We all know it goes on, I’ve done it myself, and he isn’t getting paid and chooses to do it but it don’t make it legal and that isn’t necessarily compulsory in the way the DCPC is.

*Some VOSA people have been know to talk ■■■■■■■■ but in this situation it’s so clear VOSA aren’t really required.

[dieseldave]

This is a very interesting question, and it’s one that I’ve asked several VOSA officers.

Having read all the posts so far, I’d like to present a scenario:

A driver drives for the ABC Non-dangerous Widget Delivery Company and neither he nor the company have any connection with dangerous goods. The driver doesn’t do any other work for any other employer.

• The driver works on days Mon-Fri with the occasional Saturday morning, and all perfectly legal.
• The driver wishes to complete some DCPC hours.
• The boss is a tightwad and (correctly) insists that the DCPC is the driver’s problem.
• The driver books a week’s holiday, the company payroll records show him as receiving holiday pay for a week, and the driver has a payslip to that effect.
• Of his own volition, the driver books and pays for an ADR course that takes place completely within his holiday week, because he’s heard he can get 21 DCPC hours and a ‘proper’ qualification that he can add to his CV.
• The driver attends said ADR course, passes his ADR exams and gets an ADR certificate AND a certificate showing him as having completed 21 DCPC hours as per SQA and JAUPT rules.

There is now no question as to the driver being free to dispose of his time as he sees fit, cos that’s taken care of by the fact he’s correctly on holiday.
The driver and the company he works for has no connection with dangerous goods, so there’s no legal requirement for him to hold an ADR licence in connection with his employment.
The SQA manual says that attendance is a legal requirement, but IMHO that’s only because there’s no legal option for distance learning, so attendance is only compulsory from that point of view.
The driver remains as a non-dangerous widget delivery driver for the whole of the five-year validity of his ADR licence, which he leaves to gather dust in a drawer at home.

Question:
Can anybody demonstrate a legal requirement for the driver in the scenario to have recorded ‘other work’ whilst he’s provably on holiday?

I’ve had quite varied answers from the VOSA officers I’ve asked.
SQA aren’t much help and insist that questions asked about this subject at an ADR course are answered as per their manual.

[coffeeholic]

dieseldave:
Question:
Can anybody demonstrate a legal requirement for the driver in the scenario to have recorded ‘other work’ whilst he’s provably on holiday?

Legal requirement for the driver to record 48 hours other work for the WTD unless that week is over and above the statuary 5.6 weeks minimum holiday entitlement.

[dieseldave]

Coffeeholic:

dieseldave:
Question:
Can anybody demonstrate a legal requirement for the driver in the scenario to have recorded ‘other work’ whilst he’s provably on holiday?

Legal requirement for the driver to record 48 hours other work for the WTD unless that week is over and above the statuary 5.6 weeks minimum holiday entitlement.

The driver in the scenario had taken this into account and was within his 5.6 weeks of proper holiday entitlement.

But I didn’t think of that.

[coffeeholic]

dieseldave:
The driver in the scenario had taken this into account and was within his 5.6 weeks of proper holiday entitlement.

In that case he has to record it as 48 hours work for the WTD. Only if this holiday was over and above the 5.6 weeks would it not need recording.

Statutory holidays must be counted as 8 hours per day or 48 hours for a full week. Extra holidays don’t need recording so hopefully he works for a generous non-hazardous widget firm who give him a week over and above the minimum, or however many days an ADR course takes.

[rog]

According to VOSA (see the red bit further back in this thread) any DCPC hours cannot be rest

The three 7 hours days under dcpc would therefore be counted as work for the RTWTD

The other 2 days of holiday would be counted as 2 X 8 hours for the RTWTD

As those 3 days are counted as work then they cannot be counted as rest for 561/2006

HAVE I GOT THAT CORRECT

[wheel_nut]

ex_reme_mech:
The official DSA guide to the Driver CPC has a paragraph which says something like “If you are being paid by an employer you may need to count this time as working time” or something like that.

Last DCPC I went on the trainer simply said it may count as working time and we should ask our boss what he thinks. he did suggest it was probably wise to count the weekend as a reduced weekly rest. if we weren’t able to take a reduced weekly rest we should go home and he offered a full refund.

I reckon until it goes to court there will be different views.

if I was being paid or sent on the course by my employer I would claim it was working time. if I just book the course myself and my employer knows nowt about it - I’m happy not to record it anywhere and class it as free to dispose of my time doing what I want

This is the reply from the DSA

Driving Standards Agency
Corporate Correspondence
Newcastle upon Tyne

Dear Mr Nut

Thank you for your email of 07 December, which was passed to us for reply.

Our main aim is to promote road safety in Great Britain by improving driving standards. To this end we are responsible for carrying out theory and practical driving tests for all categories of vehicle.

I regret therefore that your enquiry does not fall within our remit.

No help there then!

VOSA don’t know, the DSA doesn’t know, Skills for Logistics don’t know. My Member of Parliament has probably not read the question yet. And Harehills House Department of scary commissioners haven’t replied either!

I am still waiting for those replies with interest, however as Loyd Grossman used to say, “Let’s take a look at the evidence”

You must take both Daily and Weekly rest periods!

Statutory Holidays must be counted as 48 hours work!

and (Earlier VOSA Reply)

If CPC training is undertaken by employees outside of normal working hours this would probably not be construed as working time if it is entirely voluntary.

(me) It cannot be voluntary if you are a vocational driver, the law says that you must complete 35 hours of classroom training taken in blocks of 7 hours before September 2014 if you drive commercially.

[rog]

Wheel Nut:
Statutory Holidays must be counted as 48 hours work!

I thought that was only if no work was done in the fixed week?

[tachograph]

ROG:

Wheel Nut:
Statutory Holidays must be counted as 48 hours work!

I thought that was only if no work was done in the fixed week?

I’m not 100% sure what you mean to be honest but statutory holiday that comprises a full working week between 00:00 Monday and 24:00 Sunday should be counted as 48 hours, a working week that crosses over two fixed weeks should be counted as 8 hours per day the same as holidays of less than a week.

[wheel_nut]

And another letter has arrived.

Dear Mr Nut

Thank you for your email regarding the forthcoming Driver Certificate of Professional Competence (CPC) and EC 561/2006 legislation relating to classroom based training.
I have sent a copy of your email to Mr Mike Penning MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Department for Transport, and asked him to comment. I will let you know as soon as I receive a response.
In order to get the reply to you as quickly as possible, I will forward the reply to you with a compliment slip rather than wait for a letter to be typed out. However, if there are any issues arising from the response which you wish to pursue further, please do not hesitate to let me know.
I will treat as confidential all personal information you give to me or to my staff. I may need to pass on this information to others so they can help you. I undertake to handle the information you give me in line with the requirements of the Data Protection Act 1998. If you have any queries regarding the processing of your personal data by my office, please contact my Parliamentary Assistant

[rog]

I thought a new thread was better than going off topic on another

Wheel Nut:
Statutory Holidays must be counted as 48 hours work!

ROG:
I thought that was only if no work was done in the fixed week?

tachograph:
I’m not 100% sure what you mean to be honest but statutory holiday that comprises a full working week between 00:00 Monday and 24:00 Sunday should be counted as 48 hours, a working week that crosses over two fixed weeks should be counted as 8 hours per day the same as holidays of less than a week.

If a driver was off all of the fixed week from their regular job but did a few hours work for someone else under EU regs (or dcpc) within that week then any days holiday apart from the day worked would be counted as 8 hours each
Holidays mon to fri but work elsewhere or dcpc on sat then that would be 40 hours not 48 counted for the holls

Take 5 days holiday with both weekends off at each end but then work at macdonalds for all 5 holl days = no hours counted for holls and no hours counted for RTWTD

I know nobody checks up on these things but I was curious …