Some of us are having a discussion about the above :
Does doing a day’s course constitute as a working day within the WTD ?
in other words are you allowed to do it on your 24 hr rest day ?
No, its other work.
A rest is an uninterrupted period where a driver may freely dispose of his time. Time spent working
in other employment or under obligation or instruction, regardless of the occupation type, cannot be
counted as rest, including work where you are self-employed.
Thank-you for the quick respond. Thats what I thought.The reason for asking is that a driver where I am working was told, by HIS INSTRUCTOR that it wasn’t, beggars belief doesn’t it.
What other bad info is this numpty dishing out ?!■■!
But is it other work if your not obliged to do it, and not getting paid, and you are funding the course yourself?
weeto:
But is it other work if your not obliged to do it, and not getting paid, and you are funding the course yourself?
Any driver cpc course is legally to be recorded ‘other work’ no matter what the financial considerations
There is a post on here by geebee45 from VOSA which explains the legal side
Unfortunately I cannot agree with the statement that all periodic training attendance must be counted as ‘other work’, although it would be nice if we were in the position where anyone who was attending this mandatory training was getting paid to do so!
The Working Time Directive states that if a driver is paid by their employer whilst attending training, then the hours should count as working time. Therefore, our understanding is that if a driver is being paid whilst undertaking a course of mandatory periodic training he or she should be counting the time when considering the drivers hours (EC)561/2006 regulations as ‘other work’ and therefore if an employed driver is told to attend a course at the weekend and five daily driving periods (working days) have already been completed since their last regular or reduced weekly rest period it will definitely have an impact on a rest period - whether that be a regular or reduced weekly rest period.
However, if a driver takes it upon his or herself to book and pay for their attendance at an approved course of Driver CPC periodic training themselves to ensure that they can continue to drive professionally in the future it cannot be expected that they should be counting this time as ‘other work’ or any form of working time, as they have made the decision of their own freewill to come along and are therefore able to ‘freely dispose of their time’.
True, Driver CPC training is mandatory, but until September 2014 existing drivers (at September 2009) can continue to ply their trade without this qualification and as many are already aware the majority of goods vehicle operators have still not even made a decision as to whether they or drivers will foot the bill.
We have already had individual drivers’ who have made the decision to book, pay for and come along to training for their own peace of mind, without their operator/employers even being aware of their attendance. I would therefore be prepared to argue that the time spent on the training course is not in this case ‘other work’.
ROG:
weeto:
But is it other work if your not obliged to do it, and not getting paid, and you are funding the course yourself?Any driver cpc course is legally to be recorded ‘other work’ no matter what the financial considerations
There is a post on here by geebee45 from VOSA which explains the legal side
Indeed there is ROG, I think it’s this one:
truckuk:
We’re teaching the DCPC but as with most DCPC trainers we really don’t have much of a clue about the regulations so we will mainly make stuff up and possibly get our trainees into trouble with VOSA as a result.
FTFY. 
The DCPC is a legal obligation for drivers and is therefore compulsory and must be recorded as other Work for the EU Driver’s Hours Regulations and as Work for the WTD. Doesn’t matter who is paying for it, who has booked it or whether the driver is being paid or not, it cannot be counted as Rest.
VOSA Training Officer in April 02:
Put simply, it doesn’t matter where the dCPC training is undertaken or whether the driver is being paid to attend the course or who pays the course fees; driver or employer, the course time cannot be counted as rest under the EU drivers hours rules.If you want the detail. EC 561 gives the definitions of; driving time, other work, rest and break. As we all know, ‘rest’ is the period during which a driver may freely dispose of his (or her) time. Being on a compulsory training course doesn’t fit with that definition. ‘Break,’ cannot be claimed as a driver cannot do any ‘driving’ or ‘work’ on a break.
The definition of ‘other work’ in '561 refers back to 2002/15 (EC) our old friend that gave us the Road Transport Working Time Regulations in April 2005. If you look at Article 3 you will find the following definition of work;
‘working time’ shall mean:
- in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning
to the end of work, during which the mobile
worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the
employer and exercising his functions or activities, that
is to say:
– the time devoted to all road transport activities.
These activities are, in particular, the following:
(i) driving;
(ii) loading and unloading;
(iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking
from the vehicle;
(iv) cleaning and technical maintenance;
(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of
the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil
the legal or regulatory obligations directly
linked to the specific transport operation under
way, including monitoring of loading and
unloading, administrative formalities with
police, customs, immigration officers etc.I’ve put the important bit in part 5 in red.
The dCPC is a legal obligation for drivers that wish to use their vocational licence commercially. Therefore the time is ‘other work,’ needs to be recorded as such and cannot be counted as ‘rest’ under the EU drivers hours rules. It also needs recording under the aforementioned RT(WT)R as ‘working time’ and would count towards the maximum ‘working time’ of 60 hours per week or 48 average.
truckuk:
True, Driver CPC training is mandatory, but until September 2014 existing drivers (at September 2009) can continue to ply their trade without this qualification
Not true. Existing drivers are not plying their trade without this qualification, they have the qualification by Grandfather Rights until 2014 by which time they must have undertaken training to renew their entitlement.
I certainly stirred up a bit of a hornets nest when making a comment, especially 'coffeeholic and his assumption that someone making a comment that is debatable must not have much of a clue!!!
“plying their trade without the qualification” is exactly as stated. Entitlement through grandfather rights until September 2014 has not bestowed any existing driver (in September 2009) with any type of qualification. A Driver Qualification Card can only be obtained by undertaking 35 hours of approved periodic training or passing the Driver CPC initial qualification examinations…being granted an entitlement cannot be seen as being granted a qualification.
Regarding the ‘other work’ requirement, interpretation is wonderful thing. I am not saying that ‘VOSA training officer in 02 April’ is wrong, but the interpretation of the regulations stated then is at odds with my interpretation, which is something that surely others can accept when reading through the rules and regs. we must comply with. At this time any driver who was granted grandfather rights and attends an approved Driver CPC periodic training course of his own volition and without any compulsion from employer or operator is, when interpreting the drivers’ hours regulations with reference to 'freely disposing of …" is not, in my humble opinion, carrying out ‘other work’.
truckuk:
Regarding the ‘other work’ requirement, interpretation is wonderful thing. I am not saying that ‘VOSA training officer in 02 April’ is wrong, but the interpretation of the regulations stated then is at odds with my interpretation,
If VOSA are wrong then why do so many dcpc courses state this as a fact at the start of each course?
Are they all wrong?
I know from the past how putting ones own interpretation on the regs can lead to one looking silly!!
truckuk:
I certainly stirred up a bit of a hornets nest when making a comment, especially 'coffeeholic and his assumption that someone making a comment that is debatable must not have much of a clue!!!
There is nothing debatable about it. The regulations couldn’t be much clearer on what is work and what isn’t.
truckuk:
“plying their trade without the qualification” is exactly as stated. Entitlement through grandfather rights until September 2014 has not bestowed any existing driver (in September 2009) with any type of qualification. A Driver Qualification Card can only be obtained by undertaking 35 hours of approved periodic training or passing the Driver CPC initial qualification examinations…being granted an entitlement cannot be seen as being granted a qualification.
The DCPC for truck drivers came into force as a legal requirement from 10th September 2009 but existing drivers were given it through acquired rights and they must take 35 hours of training to renew that right, if they wish to continue driving commercially after September 2014. You cannot renew something if you haven’t already got it so saying drivers are plying their trade without qualification, as if they are doing something wrong, is complete ■■■■■■■■. This is exactly the same as Transport Managers and OD’s who have the CPC qualification even though they have never passed the exams, they got it through Grandfather, or Acquired, Rights. They got a certificate, we don’t need a bit of card as the dates on our driving licence prove we have got it.
truckuk:
Regarding the ‘other work’ requirement, interpretation is wonderful thing. I am not saying that ‘VOSA training officer in 02 April’ is wrong, but the interpretation of the regulations stated then is at odds with my interpretation, which is something that surely others can accept when reading through the rules and regs. we must comply with. At this time any driver who was granted grandfather rights and attends an approved Driver CPC periodic training course of his own volition and without any compulsion from employer or operator is, when interpreting the drivers’ hours regulations with reference to 'freely disposing of …" is not, in my humble opinion, carrying out ‘other work’.
Your interpretation or VOSA? Tough call there. It’s compulsory training therefore you are not free to dispose of your time. Compulsory and free to dispose of, they are pretty much the opposite of each other. If you cannot understand such a basic and clear part of the regulations I would be dubious about what else you are teaching on courses about the tacho regs and the WTD, particularly with regard to the ferry option on a digi tacho and WTD breaks. 
You shouldn’t be training your interpretation of the regulations, you should be teaching the facts. There is practically nothing in the regs which needs interpretation. They are very simple and very clear, especially if read in conjunction with the VOSA publication Driving and WTD regulations for Dummies, and any grey areas were ironed out years ago by various court cases. Claiming it is down to interpretation, or a grey area as some people do, is a clear sign the person doesn’t understand them or has realised they are wrong but won’t admit it.
ROG:
truckuk:
Regarding the ‘other work’ requirement, interpretation is wonderful thing. I am not saying that ‘VOSA training officer in 02 April’ is wrong, but the interpretation of the regulations stated then is at odds with my interpretation,If VOSA are wrong then why do so many dcpc courses state this as a fact at the start of each course?
Are they all wrong?
That’ll be the good courses ROG, conducted by the trainers who know the stuff they are training on. Sadly, as proved by many posts on here about the nonsense people have been told is “the law” while on courses, they are very much in the minority.
Thank you for your interpretation Coffeholic. I don’t think I can argue with your superior judgement and the last thing I want to do is look silly.
truckuk:
Thank you for your interpretation Coffeholic.
Not my interpretation, nothing needed interpreting, just exactly what the rules say in good old black & white.
truckuk:
I don’t think I can argue with your superior judgement
Many have tried, many have failed. It is what it is. 
truckuk:
and the last thing I want to do is look silly.
I think that ship has sailed. 
You’re no fun if you give up that easily. 
ROG do something.
If you need any more help in ensuring you don’t follow the herd, and teach ■■■■■■■■, don’t hesitate to post again, we will all be happy to keep you right.
Coffeeholic:
truckuk:
We’re teaching the DCPC but as with most DCPC trainers we really don’t have much of a clue about the regulations so we will mainly make stuff up and possibly get our trainees into trouble with VOSA as a result.FTFY.
The DCPC is a legal obligation for drivers and is therefore compulsory and must be recorded as other Work for the EU Driver’s Hours Regulations and as Work for the WTD. Doesn’t matter who is paying for it, who has booked it or whether the driver is being paid or not, it cannot be counted as Rest.
VOSA Training Officer in April 02:
Put simply, it doesn’t matter where the dCPC training is undertaken or whether the driver is being paid to attend the course or who pays the course fees; driver or employer, the course time cannot be counted as rest under the EU drivers hours rules.If you want the detail. EC 561 gives the definitions of; driving time, other work, rest and break. As we all know, ‘rest’ is the period during which a driver may freely dispose of his (or her) time. Being on a compulsory training course doesn’t fit with that definition. ‘Break,’ cannot be claimed as a driver cannot do any ‘driving’ or ‘work’ on a break.
The definition of ‘other work’ in '561 refers back to 2002/15 (EC) our old friend that gave us the Road Transport Working Time Regulations in April 2005. If you look at Article 3 you will find the following definition of work;
‘working time’ shall mean:
- in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning
to the end of work, during which the mobile
worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the
employer and exercising his functions or activities, that
is to say:
– the time devoted to all road transport activities.
These activities are, in particular, the following:
(i) driving;
(ii) loading and unloading;
(iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking
from the vehicle;
(iv) cleaning and technical maintenance;
(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of
the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil
the legal or regulatory obligations directly
linked to the specific transport operation under
way, including monitoring of loading and
unloading, administrative formalities with
police, customs, immigration officers etc.I’ve put the important bit in part 5 in red.
The dCPC is a legal obligation for drivers that wish to use their vocational licence commercially. Therefore the time is ‘other work,’ needs to be recorded as such and cannot be counted as ‘rest’ under the EU drivers hours rules. It also needs recording under the aforementioned RT(WT)R as ‘working time’ and would count towards the maximum ‘working time’ of 60 hours per week or 48 average.
truckuk:
True, Driver CPC training is mandatory, but until September 2014 existing drivers (at September 2009) can continue to ply their trade without this qualificationNot true. Existing drivers are not plying their trade without this qualification, they have the qualification by Grandfather Rights until 2014 by which time they must have undertaken training to renew their entitlement.
Sorry to be a ■■■■■ but that highlighted bit to me, really doesn’t explain that doing DCPC on a Saturday youve payed for your self counts towards WTD.
truckuk:
Unfortunately I cannot agree with the statement that all periodic training attendance must be counted as ‘other work’, …I would therefore be prepared to argue that the time spent on the training course is not in this case ‘other work’.
Hi truckuk,
This might be a pointer…
The awarding body for drivers’ ADR certificates in the UK is SQA, on behalf of the DfT.
Some ADR providers have also accredited their ADR course with JAUPT for either 7, 14, 21 or 28 DCPC hours.
Whatever JAUPT’s view on this question is, the following is true nevertheless:
SQA publishes a Manual of Practice for ADR training providers, and adherence to the manual is a frequently checked prerequisite of holding a provider’s licence.
Section 7.11 of the manual says this:
Attendance at courses is a legal requirement and training providers must make trainees and their employers aware of the requirements of the drivers’ hours regulations. Time spent attending a course is likely to affect the amount of driving or other work they may undertake under the drivers’ hours regulations.
Section 9.1 of the Manual says this:
Providers must inform drivers and employers that the course requires the driver to be on duty, and the implications of this for the driver’s hours regulations.
Whenever I’m asked about this by guys on an ADR course, I always refer them to the relevant person in their company who monitors and controls their driver’s hours because I’m there to teach them ADR and not to become derailed by non-ADR stuff. 
weeto:
Sorry to be a [zb], but that highlighted bit to me, really doesn’t explain that doing DCPC on a Saturday youve payed for your self counts towards WTD.
Does the dcpc being undertaken in any way fulfil the legal or regulatory obligations directly linked to the specific transport operation under way ?
I can see that the driver must legally do the dcpc and that is deffo linked to the transport operation because there is no transport operation with out drivers
Perhaps you could explain how it is not?
dieseldave:
truckuk:
Unfortunately I cannot agree with the statement that all periodic training attendance must be counted as ‘other work’, …I would therefore be prepared to argue that the time spent on the training course is not in this case ‘other work’.
Hi truckuk,
This might be a pointer…The awarding body for drivers’ ADR certificates in the UK is SQA, on behalf of the DfT.
Some ADR providers have also accredited their ADR course with JAUPT for either 7, 14, 21 or 28 DCPC hours.Whatever JAUPT’s view on this question is, the following is true nevertheless:
SQA publishes a Manual of Practice for ADR training providers, and adherence to the manual is a frequently checked prerequisite of holding a provider’s licence.
Section 7.11 of the manual says this:
Attendance at courses is a legal requirement and training providers must make trainees and their employers aware of the requirements of the drivers’ hours regulations. Time spent attending a course is likely to affect the amount of driving or other work they may undertake under the drivers’ hours regulations.
Section 9.1 of the Manual says this:
Providers must inform drivers and employers that the course requires the driver to be on duty, and the implications of this for the driver’s hours regulations.
Whenever I’m asked about this by guys on an ADR course, I always refer them to the relevant person in their company who monitors and controls their driver’s hours because I’m there to teach them ADR and not to become derailed by non-ADR stuff.
I believe in this case we should be following the letter of the law to the letter, not just if it suits, Steve
If you are required by your employer to attend a training session (i.e. a module of Driver CPC periodic training) then that time should be added to your drivers’ hours record as ‘other work’ if you are to follow the letter of the law and keep a true record.
This was taken from Truckuk website.
This “quick” question was asked of VOSA several months ago and this is the reply I received:
Dear Mr Nut
This is a complex area and it does depend on the individual circumstances. Where an operator undertakes in-house CPC training or pays for external training within normal working hours, then this is most likely to be construed as ‘working time’. However, if CPC training is undertaken by employees outside of normal working hours this would probably not be construed as working time if it is entirely voluntary.
A weekly rest under the EU drivers’ hours rules (Regulation 561/2006) must be an uninterrupted period where a driver may freely dispose of his time. Time spent working under obligation or instruction cannot be counted as rest. Drivers can of course take a reduced weekly rest of 24 hours but not on consecutive weekends.
Ultimately of course, it is for the Courts to interpret the legislation. I hope this helps though.
Kind regards
I believe the courts have already interpreted the legislation by stating that time taken doing the ADR must be counted as working time.
As ADR is a compulsory set format, as is JAUPT DCPC Training. I cannot see how it can be treated any differently.
If VOSA are using this section.
- in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning
to the end of work, during which the mobile
worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the
employer and exercising his functions or activities, that
is to say:
– the time devoted to all road transport activities.
These activities are, in particular, the following:
(i) driving;
(ii) loading and unloading;
(iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking
from the vehicle;
(iv) cleaning and technical maintenance;
(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of
the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil
the legal or regulatory obligations directly
linked to the specific transport operation under
way, including monitoring of loading and
unloading, administrative formalities with
police, customs, immigration officers etc.
The whole section has to be used, they cant just pick a sub section out of to say you can or cant do something, they would have to use the whole section from the start.
As in “in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning
to the end of work, during which the mobile
worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the
employer and exercising his functions or activities, that
is to say”
So if a driver isnt doing what it say in the above paragraph, non of the other sub-sections can be used. so if I am not at work at the disposal of my employer sub-section (v) means nothing to me on a saturday on my day off.
Wheel Nut:
dieseldave:
truckuk:
Unfortunately I cannot agree with the statement that all periodic training attendance must be counted as ‘other work’, …I would therefore be prepared to argue that the time spent on the training course is not in this case ‘other work’.
Hi truckuk,
This might be a pointer…The awarding body for drivers’ ADR certificates in the UK is SQA, on behalf of the DfT.
Some ADR providers have also accredited their ADR course with JAUPT for either 7, 14, 21 or 28 DCPC hours.Whatever JAUPT’s view on this question is, the following is true nevertheless:
SQA publishes a Manual of Practice for ADR training providers, and adherence to the manual is a frequently checked prerequisite of holding a provider’s licence.
Section 7.11 of the manual says this:
Attendance at courses is a legal requirement and training providers must make trainees and their employers aware of the requirements of the drivers’ hours regulations. Time spent attending a course is likely to affect the amount of driving or other work they may undertake under the drivers’ hours regulations.
Section 9.1 of the Manual says this:
Providers must inform drivers and employers that the course requires the driver to be on duty, and the implications of this for the driver’s hours regulations.
Whenever I’m asked about this by guys on an ADR course, I always refer them to the relevant person in their company who monitors and controls their driver’s hours because I’m there to teach them ADR and not to become derailed by non-ADR stuff.
I believe in this case we should be following the letter of the law to the letter, not just if it suits, Steve
If you are required by your employer to attend a training session (i.e. a module of Driver CPC periodic training) then that time should be added to your drivers’ hours record as ‘other work’ if you are to follow the letter of the law and keep a true record.
This was taken from Truckuk website.
This “quick” question was asked of VOSA several months ago and this is the reply I received:
Dear Mr Nut
This is a complex area and it does depend on the individual circumstances. Where an operator undertakes in-house CPC training or pays for external training within normal working hours, then this is most likely to be construed as ‘working time’. However, if CPC training is undertaken by employees outside of normal working hours this would probably not be construed as working time if it is entirely voluntary.
A weekly rest under the EU drivers’ hours rules (Regulation 561/2006) must be an uninterrupted period where a driver may freely dispose of his time. Time spent working under obligation or instruction cannot be counted as rest. Drivers can of course take a reduced weekly rest of 24 hours but not on consecutive weekends.
Ultimately of course, it is for the Courts to interpret the legislation. I hope this helps though.
Kind regards
I believe the courts have already interpreted the legislation by stating that time taken doing the ADR must be counted as working time.
As ADR is a compulsory set format, as is JAUPT DCPC Training. I cannot see how it can be treated any differently.
You believe, or has there been an actual case.