ROG:
According to VOSA (see the red bit further back in this thread) any DCPC hours cannot be rest
The three 7 hours days under dcpc would therefore be counted as work for the RTWTD
The other 2 days of holiday would be counted as 2 X 8 hours for the RTWTD
As those 3 days are counted as work then they cannot be counted as rest for 561/2006
HAVE I GOT THAT CORRECT
I have said before, for a regulation sub section to be used ie the red bit, you have to start at the top, the blue bit, if that can be satisfied then yes the red bit can be enforced.
VOSA make things fit to suit them, this part of the regulation does NOT refer to a driver who is off duty, like a weekly rest.
In other words he would have to be at work, being payed under instruction off his employer!
in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning
to the end of work, during which the mobile
worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the
employer and exercising his functions or activities, that
is to say:
– the time devoted to all road transport activities.
These activities are, in particular, the following:
(i) driving;
(ii) loading and unloading;
(iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking
from the vehicle;
(iv) cleaning and technical maintenance;
(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of
the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil
the legal or regulatory obligations directly
linked to the specific transport operation under
way, including monitoring of loading and
unloading, administrative formalities with
police, customs, immigration officers etc.
There is nothing in that part of the regulation requiring that driver to record the 3 days as other work.
weeto:
Are we any further forward on proving the fact that VOSA talks [zb]?
You can’t prove a negative.* It’s work related so it can’t be rest.
No different to the OD who works Monday to Saturday then spends Sunday doing a bit of maintenance on the vehicle and then his bookkeeping before going back to work on Monday. We all know it goes on, I’ve done it myself, and he isn’t getting paid and chooses to do it but it don’t make it legal and that isn’t necessarily compulsory in the way the DCPC is.
*Some VOSA people have been know to talk ■■■■■■■■ but in this situation it’s so clear VOSA aren’t really required.
But still nothing in the regulations saying it is working time though, even if Mr VOSA man 2002. thinks there is.
ex_reme_mech:
The official DSA guide to the Driver CPC has a paragraph which says something like “If you are being paid by an employer you may need to count this time as working time” or something like that.
Last DCPC I went on the trainer simply said it may count as working time and we should ask our boss what he thinks. he did suggest it was probably wise to count the weekend as a reduced weekly rest. if we weren’t able to take a reduced weekly rest we should go home and he offered a full refund.
I reckon until it goes to court there will be different views.
if I was being paid or sent on the course by my employer I would claim it was working time. if I just book the course myself and my employer knows nowt about it - I’m happy not to record it anywhere and class it as free to dispose of my time doing what I want
This is the reply from the DSA
Driving Standards Agency
Corporate Correspondence
Newcastle upon Tyne
Dear Mr Nut
Thank you for your email of 07 December, which was passed to us for reply.
Our main aim is to promote road safety in Great Britain by improving driving standards. To this end we are responsible for carrying out theory and practical driving tests for all categories of vehicle.
I regret therefore that your enquiry does not fall within our remit.
No help there then!
VOSA don’t know, the DSA doesn’t know, Skills for Logistics don’t know. My Member of Parliament has probably not read the question yet. And Harehills House Department of scary commissioners haven’t replied either!
I am still waiting for those replies with interest, however as Loyd Grossman used to say, “Let’s take a look at the evidence”
You must take both Daily and Weekly rest periods!
Statutory Holidays must be counted as 48 hours work!
and (Earlier VOSA Reply)
If CPC training is undertaken by employees outside of normal working hours this would probably not be construed as working time if it is entirely voluntary.
(me) It cannot be voluntary if you are a vocational driver, the law says that you must complete 35 hours of classroom training taken in blocks of 7 hours before September 2014 if you drive commercially.
Of course it can, no one is forcing drivers to take the Dcpc, it would only become compulsory after september 2014, or are they saying you lose your commercial licence for good if you havn’t done it?
Think you better bugger off to Strasburg, your getting no joy from the idiots here (official idiots) i mean.
ROG:
Take 5 days holiday with both weekends off at each end but then work at macdonalds for all 5 holl days = no hours counted for holls and no hours counted for RTWTD
His main employer would have to count that as 48 hours toward the WTD, presuming those 5 days are part of his statutory holidays, otherwise it would be lowering his average over the reference period and that isn’t allowed.
ROG:
Take 5 days holiday with both weekends off at each end but then work at macdonalds for all 5 holl days = no hours counted for holls and no hours counted for RTWTD
His main employer would have to count that as 48 hours toward the WTD, presuming those 5 days are part of his statutory holidays, otherwise it would be lowering his average over the reference period and that isn’t allowed.
I must have been mistaken
I thought that when any work was done in a fixed week, that week could not be counted as a full week of annual leave in the same way that if annual leave spans two weeks then only single days are counted because work was done in each of those two weeks
Example would be a worker who always has wed & thu off but takes their working week off
I have an email from VOSA that states that if the training takes place during a normal working week (eg mon-fri) then it is classed as working time, however if it takes place outside of that time and the driver is not being paid for his/her time, then it shouldn’t be classed as work.
I will dig it out and post the wording, but it does have a caveat that this has not been tried in court, so can only be advisory…
Cold Up North:
I have an email from VOSA that states that if the training takes place during a normal working week (eg mon-fri) then it is classed as working time, however if it takes place outside of that time and the driver is not being paid for his/her time, then it shouldn’t be classed as work.
I will dig it out and post the wording, but it does have a caveat that this has not been tried in court, so can only be advisory…
Rgds.
Thank you Cold Up North, some just believe what they are told.
Cold Up North:
I have an email from VOSA that states that if the training takes place during a normal working week (eg mon-fri) then it is classed as working time, however if it takes place outside of that time and the driver is not being paid for his/her time, then it shouldn’t be classed as work.
I will dig it out and post the wording, but it does have a caveat that this has not been tried in court, so can only be advisory…
Rgds.
Thank you Cold Up North, some just believe what they are told.
I think you will find my VOSA reply came close to that, although it didn’t mention any specific days.
Weeto, where is your contribution? you just say we are wrong but you have nothing to back that up. I believe it will be tested in court, but I want to know before that happens, especially if it warns people or gets their CPC paid for by an employer or agency
ROG:
Take 5 days holiday with both weekends off at each end but then work at macdonalds for all 5 holl days = no hours counted for holls and no hours counted for RTWTD
His main employer would have to count that as 48 hours toward the WTD, presuming those 5 days are part of his statutory holidays, otherwise it would be lowering his average over the reference period and that isn’t allowed.
I must have been mistaken
I thought that when any work was done in a fixed week, that week could not be counted as a full week of annual leave in the same way that if annual leave spans two weeks then only single days are counted because work was done in each of those two weeks
Example would be a worker who always has wed & thu off but takes their working week off
The work in McDonalds in your example is nothing to do with our flavour of the WTD and as far as his main employer is concerned he has booked a full week of statutory leave so they will have to record that as 48 hours work if they are bothering with the WTD
Cold Up North:
I have an email from VOSA that states that if the training takes place during a normal working week (eg mon-fri) then it is classed as working time, however if it takes place outside of that time and the driver is not being paid for his/her time, then it shouldn’t be classed as work.
I will dig it out and post the wording, but it does have a caveat that this has not been tried in court, so can only be advisory…
Rgds.
Thank you Cold Up North, some just believe what they are told.
I think you will find my VOSA reply came close to that, although it didn’t mention any specific days.
Weeto, where is your contribution? you just say we are wrong but you have nothing to back that up. I believe it will be tested in court, but I want to know before that happens, especially if it warns people or gets their CPC paid for by an employer or agency
I have no contribution to disprove the facts, but nothing has been posted to prove the fact that it is other work either.
Post something from any regulation or court case that says it is, then I will let this go, untill then i will say it doesn’t count as other work.
Until you do, I will say your wrong.
Also some one one who gets their Dcpc paid for but doesn’t actually get paid for doing it wouldn’t have to put it down as other work.
Cold Up North:
I have an email from VOSA that states that if the training takes place during a normal working week (eg mon-fri) then it is classed as working time, however if it takes place outside of that time and the driver is not being paid for his/her time, then it shouldn’t be classed as work.
I will dig it out and post the wording, but it does have a caveat that this has not been tried in court, so can only be advisory…
Rgds.
Thank you Cold Up North, some just believe what they are told.
I think you will find my VOSA reply came close to that, although it didn’t mention any specific days.
Weeto, where is your contribution? you just say we are wrong but you have nothing to back that up. I believe it will be tested in court, but I want to know before that happens, especially if it warns people or gets their CPC paid for by an employer or agency
I have no contribution to disprove the facts, but nothing has been posted to prove the fact that it is other work either.
Post something from any regulation or court case that says it is, then I will let this go, untill then i will say it doesn’t count as other work.
Until you do, I will say your wrong.
Also some one one who gets their Dcpc paid for but doesn’t actually get paid for doing it wouldn’t have to put it down as other work.
Well it has taken a while and I believe the answer has been well considered over the past two months as Mike Penning sent me a very similarly worded reply.
Dear Wheel Nut
Thank you for your email of 7 December addressed to the Department for Transport. It has been passed to me to respond as the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) is responsible for enforcing drivers’ hours legislation. I am sorry for the delay in responding to your correspondence.
The drivers’ hours legislation states that a weekly rest period is a period during which drivers may freely dispose of their time. It is therefore the compulsory or voluntary nature of CPC training which determines whether or not it should be counted as working time.
Driver CPC training should be treated as working time if the driver is instructed to attend the training as part of their employment. If, however, a driver organises their own training and attends that training during their rest period or day off, then it is counted as rest like any other voluntary activity.
If an employer organises non-compulsory training for drivers which takes place at weekends and where attendance is unpaid, it does not count as working time.
I trust you find this information helpful.
Yours sincerely,
VOSA Corporate Office
Mike Penning used some similar words to VOSA.
The drivers’ hours legislation states that a weekly rest period is a period
during which drivers may freely dispose of their time. It is therefore the
compulsory or voluntary nature of CPC training which determines whether
or not it should be counted as working time.
Driver CPC training should be treated as working time if the driver is
instructed to attend the training as part of their employment.
If, however, a driver organises their own training and attends that training during their rest period or day off, then it is counted as rest like any other voluntary activity.
If an employer organises non-compulsory training for drivers which takes
place at weekends and where attendance is unpaid, it does not count as
working time.
Thank you for your email of 7 December addressed to the Department for Transport. It has been passed to me to respond as the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) is responsible for enforcing drivers’ hours legislation. I am sorry for the delay in responding to your correspondence.
The drivers’ hours legislation states that a weekly rest period is a period during which drivers may freely dispose of their time. It is therefore the compulsory or voluntary
nature of CPC training which determines whether or not it should be counted as working time.
Driver CPC training should be treated as working time if the driver is instructed to attend the training as part of their employment. If, however, a driver organises their own training and attends that training during their rest period or day off, then it is counted as rest like any other voluntary activity.
If an employer organises non-compulsory training for drivers which takes place at weekends and where attendance is unpaid, it does not count as working time.
I trust you find this information helpful.
Yours sincerely,
Sally Cranney
An executive agency of the Department for Transport
Seems quite straightforward to me, if the source can be trusted! Anyways, that nice little letter is always to hand in case anyone were to question why I might have been doing DCPC during my weekly rest!
Having said that, it conflicts with this link highlighted below, also from VOSA according to ROG!
dieseldave:
ROG:
weeto:
But is it other work if your not obliged to do it, and not getting paid, and you are funding the course yourself?
Any driver cpc course is legally to be recorded ‘other work’ no matter what the financial considerations
There is a post on here by geebee45 from VOSA which explains the legal side
Thank you for your email of 7 December addressed to the Department for Transport. It has been passed to me to respond as the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) is responsible for enforcing drivers’ hours legislation. I am sorry for the delay in responding to your correspondence.
The drivers’ hours legislation states that a weekly rest period is a period during which drivers may freely dispose of their time. It is therefore the compulsory or voluntary
nature of CPC training which determines whether or not it should be counted as working time.
Driver CPC training should be treated as working time if the driver is instructed to attend the training as part of their employment. If, however, a driver organises their own training and attends that training during their rest period or day off, then it is counted as rest like any other voluntary activity.
If an employer organises non-compulsory training for drivers which takes place at weekends and where attendance is unpaid, it does not count as working time.
I trust you find this information helpful.
Yours sincerely,
Sally Cranney
An executive agency of the Department for Transport
Seems quite straightforward to me, if the source can be trusted! Anyways, that nice little letter is always to hand in case anyone were to question why I might have been doing DCPC during my weekly rest!
Hmm, now why does that letter look so so familiar
Half the CPC trainers in Europe have a copy of that letter on the wall
Sorry, just to be pedantic, for the WTD, only 4 weeks count as statutory holiday not 5.6, the remaining 1.6 weeks, or more if you get them, can be booked at zero hours not 8 per day/48 per week.
Weeto. How can you be right? You haven’t put up an opposing theory yet.
You say everyone else is wrong and we cannot prove it without a court case, well sir, neither can you…
Put something up or say what you mean.
If for instance someone was going to be prosecuted for working 7 hours on Saturday sat in the back room of a pub, and it did go to court, who do you think the court would listen to you, an unnamed bloke on an internet forum or a signed letter from the minister for transport and another department who deals with the legislation.
It’s work related so it can’t be rest.
