Who can confirm what the regs are for private hgv drivers hours ■■
Richard
Private LGV are not under domestic regs
Private LGV over 7.5 tonnes GVW is under EU regs
I would tend to agree with this statement but i am struggling to confirm my belief with something in writing. I do however have a document worth looking at http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Horsebox%20Guide%20low%20res.pdf. Look at PAGE 10 first paragraph on the right hand side. it says: “Consequently, all drivers of horseboxes exceeding 7.5 tonnes need to adhere to the rules on drivers’ hours and tachographs.”
But of course this is Horse Boxes and not goods vehicles. HOWEVER - I believe the same applies and it is all about the definition of a ‘goods vehicle’ and ‘goods’. I haven’t looked up these definitions but my understanding is a vehicle designed to carry goods and capable of carrying goods is a goods vehicle. Put something in it and carry it and these are goods. Another word used seems to be BURDEN - so are the items inside a ‘burden’ on the vehicle? - if so they could be classed as goods.
Although I have linked to a publication specifically regarding horse boxes - I don’t believe the rules differ between them and goods vehicles. And of course it is a VOSA publication.
So - once over 7.5t private or commercial use makes no odds as far as tachographs are concerned (but does for Ops licence). I would summise a goods vehicle converted to living accomodation with no goods carrying capacity is not a goods vehicle. However a 17t vehicle with half living accomodation and half carrying race bikes - no matter the classification of the bikes (i.e. private ownership or not) aren’t these bikes still ‘goods’ in a ‘goods vehicle’?
Difficult one isn’t it?
And I still haven’t reached a a satisfactory answer regarding domestic and EU operations in the same day!!
Who can confirm what the regs are for private hgv drivers hours ■■
Richard
Private LGV are not under domestic regs
Private LGV over 7.5 tonnes GVW is under EU regs
I would tend to agree with this statement but i am struggling to confirm my belief with something in writing. I do however have a document worth looking at dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/H … %20res.pdf. Look at PAGE 10 first paragraph on the right hand side. it says: “Consequently, all drivers of horseboxes exceeding 7.5 tonnes need to adhere to the rules on drivers’ hours and tachographs.”
No-ones doubting the fact that the carrying of goods/horses in vehicles exceeding 7.5 tonnes comes under EU regulations, that’s something we’ve known since 2007
If you want it in writing try article 11 of (EC) 561/2006 where you will see that there can be no use of private carriage of goods for vehicles that exceed 7.5 tonnes unless the goods/vehicle has an exemption mentioned.
The question asked was “Who can confirm what the regs are for private hgv drivers hours ■■”, no mention was made of carrying goods, horses or anything else.
Who can confirm what the regs are for private hgv drivers hours ■■
Richard
Private LGV are not under domestic regs
Private LGV over 7.5 tonnes GVW is under EU regs
I would tend to agree with this statement but i am struggling to confirm my belief with something in writing. I do however have a document worth looking at dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/H … %20res.pdf. Look at PAGE 10 first paragraph on the right hand side. it says: “Consequently, all drivers of horseboxes exceeding 7.5 tonnes need to adhere to the rules on drivers’ hours and tachographs.”
No-ones doubting the fact that the carrying of goods/horses in vehicles exceeding 7.5 tonnes comes under EU regulations, that’s something we’ve known since 2007
If you want it in writing try article 11 of (EC) 561/2006 where you will see that there can be no use of private carriage of goods for vehicles that exceed 7.5 tonnes unless the goods/vehicle has an exemption mentioned.
The question asked was “Who can confirm what the regs are for private hgv drivers hours ■■”, no mention was made of carrying goods, horses or anything else.
So I missed the point then? I would say an empty HGV is a goods vehicle. The fact it is an HGV makes it more than likely over 7.5t and therefore carrying goods or not - EU Rules apply. Once over 7.5t the type of use doesn’t come into it, but the type of vehicle does i.e. goods vehicle or not. So if the HGV is converted to accommodation only and cannot carry goods I would suggest it is not a goods vehicle and therefore exempt EU Rules but would need an exemption certificate.
If it is less than 7.5t then the type of use does matter and private use would be exempt EU and Domestic rules.
shep532:
So I missed the point then? I would say an empty HGV is a goods vehicle. The fact it is an HGV makes it more than likely over 7.5t and therefore carrying goods or not - EU Rules apply. Once over 7.5t the type of use doesn’t come into it, but the type of vehicle does i.e. goods vehicle or not. So if the HGV is converted to accommodation only and cannot carry goods I would suggest it is not a goods vehicle and therefore exempt EU Rules but would need an exemption certificate.
If it is less than 7.5t then the type of use does matter and private use would be exempt EU and Domestic rules.
Or have I still missed the point?
As far as this issue is concerned, for EU regulations whether it’s a goods vehicle or not is irrelevant, whether or not it ever carries goods is very relevant, see the quotes from the regulations by Mike-C and myself a few posts back
I don’t see why it should, a horse is goods, a boat is goods, a pallet of whatever is goods, the driver is not goods, he may be good but he isn’t goods.
shep532:
So I missed the point then? I would say an empty HGV is a goods vehicle. The fact it is an HGV makes it more than likely over 7.5t and therefore carrying goods or not - EU Rules apply. Once over 7.5t the type of use doesn’t come into it, but the type of vehicle does i.e. goods vehicle or not. So if the HGV is converted to accommodation only and cannot carry goods I would suggest it is not a goods vehicle and therefore exempt EU Rules but would need an exemption certificate.
If it is less than 7.5t then the type of use does matter and private use would be exempt EU and Domestic rules.
Or have I still missed the point?
As far as this issue is concerned, for EU regulations whether it’s a goods vehicle or not is irrelevant, whether or not it ever carries goods is very relevant, see the quotes from the regulations by Mike-C and myself a few posts back
I am clearly being particularly thick here because I don’t get it. I read it that a goods vehicle over 7.5t whether used privately or not comes under EU Rules - laden or not.
A goods vehicle under 7.5t can be exempt EU rules if used for private use.
So - put me out of my misery and clarify why it matters whether or not it ever carries goods.
shep532:
I am clearly being particularly thick here because I don’t get it.
That’s all-right mate you’re a trainer … we make allowances for trainers at Trucknet
Seriously though, the EU regulations are for vehicles that carry goods or passengers, if the vehicle is not used for the carriage of goods or passengers it does not come in-scope of EU regulations.
Obviously if the vehicle is used for the carriage of goods it comes in-scope of EU regulations even when it’s empty unless there’s an exemption for the vehicle or job.
This Regulation lays down rules on driving times, breaks and rest periods for drivers engaged in the carriage of goods and passengers by road in order to harmonise the conditions of
competition between modes of inland transport, especially
with regard to the road sector, and to improve working
conditions and road safety. This Regulation also aims to
promote improved monitoring and enforcement practices by
Member States and improved working practices in the road
transport industry.
Article 2
This Regulation shall apply to the carriage by road: u of goods[/u] where the maximum permissible mass of the
vehicle, including any trailer, or semi-trailer, exceeds
3,5 tonnes, or
Article 4
(a) ‘carriage by road’ means any journey made entirely or in
part on roads open to the public by a vehicle, whether
laden or not, used for the carriage of passengers or goods;
shep532:
So - put me out of my misery and clarify why it matters whether or not it ever carries goods.
Just read article 1 and 2, which clarifies what the legislation is for. Forget weights and stuff. Just read who or what comes in scope of the regs. I don’t think you need to go any further than that.
It appears to me that a tractor unit or rigid lorry if it does not carry goods and is not licensed to do so does not come under the legislation (and of course it should go without saying that it is actually not carrying a load nor is it intended to do). Wheelnut posted a good link above clarifying that a semi trailer is classed as a ‘load’. So probably a trailer is a no go. But as far as driving round in a tractor unit or some large rigid lorry goes i can’t see how it possibly comes under this legislation. Forget Horseboxes, forget ‘private use’ and forget weights. Just go by whay it says. Is the vehicle you are using used for transporting goods by road? Is it licensed to do so. If the answer to them two questions is no, then it can’t possible come under legislation aimed at vehicles used for carrying goods?
What would VOSA say if they stopped a driver driving a private LGV over 7.5 tonnes which was not being driven under EU regs but was totally empty and the driver claimed that it never carried a load of any sort ?
shep532:
I read it that a goods vehicle over 7.5t whether used privately or not comes under EU Rules - laden or not.
That’s how I read it initially but the point is a vehicle that never carries goods is out of scope, so I stand corrected.
This is the bit I don’t get. In this quote of Article 4 it says “Laden or unladen”.
Article 4
For the purposes of this Regulation the following definitions
shall apply:
(a) ‘carriage by road’ means any journey made entirely or in
part on roads open to the public by a vehicle, whether laden or not, used for the carriage of passengers or
goods;
In the horsey thing i linked to this morning it said “Consequently, all drivers of horseboxes exceeding 7.5 tonnes need to adhere to the rules on drivers’ hours and tachographs.”. it doesn’t say whether or not there is a horse in the back. But I guess you wouldn’t have one if you didn’t carry horses.
I’ve just got myself so confused now it is pointless reading any further for me - I’ve lost the plot and now nothing makes sense. I will revisit this another time.
shep532:
This is the bit I don’t get. In this quote of Article 4 it says “Laden or unladen”.
Article 4
For the purposes of this Regulation the following definitions
shall apply:
(a) ‘carriage by road’ means any journey made entirely or in
part on roads open to the public by a vehicle, whether laden or not**, used for the carriage of passengers or** goods;
I’ve just got myself so confused now it is pointless reading any further for me - I’ve lost the plot and now nothing makes sense. I will revisit this another time.
Who is the burden of proof on - the driver or VOSA - if stopped with an empty private LGV over 7.5 tonnes where the driver claimed it never carried any goods ?
I would say an empty HGV is a goods vehicle. The fact it is an HGV makes it more than likely over 7.5t and therefore carrying goods or not - EU Rules apply. Once over 7.5t the type of use doesn’t come into it, but the type of vehicle does i.e. goods vehicle or not. So if the HGV is converted to accommodation only and cannot carry goods I would suggest it is not a goods vehicle and therefore exempt EU Rules but would need an exemption certificate.
I will revisit this another time.