tachograph:
I thought DCPC trainers were supposed to know this stuff
I disagree. I think DCPC trainers know where to find this stuff.
Diesel Dave will never give an answer off the top of his head unless it is one of the very basic rules, it is the same with VOSA, they think they know, but do they really?
I believe a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, it is proven day after day in my weekend job for the ACU.
Open book exams are much more use than learning a little parrot fashion
tachograph:
I thought DCPC trainers were supposed to know this stuff
Nah! You only need to know the bits you deliver as training. This particular discussion may well come up in the classroom but is not part of the course syllabus in any of my courses. This is a matter to be discussed with VOSA as I believe that no matter what you or I say or decide the rules say - the man that matters is the man stood in your office wearing a VOSA Hi-Vis and I KNOW this has been interpreted a different way before now and I KNOW the people now running tachographs in their over 7.5t vehicle NOT carrying goods.
Not saying VOSA were right in those instances but the people concerned took the easier route - keep VOSA happy. We had the same sort of issue at the beginning of this thread regarding EU and Domestic mixed activities. A VOSA guy gave his opinion and some of us didnât see it that way.
Either way - I donât believe there is a difinitive answer that would be simple at the road side - therefore as a trainer I would state the facts, my interpretation of them and end with, âBut you will need to ultimately consult VOSA or a specialist transport lawyer - which I am notâ.
Anyway - I thought Trucknet made allowances for trainers 
Wheel Nut:
tachograph:
I thought DCPC trainers were supposed to know this stuffI disagree. I think DCPC trainers know where to find this stuff.
Diesel Dave will never give an answer off the top of his head unless it is one of the very basic rules, it is the same with VOSA, they think they know, but do they really?
I believe a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, it is proven day after day in my weekend job for the ACU.
Open book exams are much more use than learning a little parrot fashion
I couldnât agree more. With this subject and the mixed EU and domestic I will obtain myself an answer from the authorities along with the explanation as to why that is the answer.
I will often answer a question in a training session with âIâm not 100% sure, Iâll find out and come back to you. Please leave me your number/email and Iâll contact you.â When I then supply the answer I would normally point them to the actual legislation/facts and give all of the explanation etc
ROG:
Who is the burden of proof on - the driver or VOSA - if stopped with an empty private LGV over 7.5 tonnes where the driver claimed it never carried any goods ?
VOSA would have to prove you guilty, so ultimately a court of law.
Wheel Nut:
tachograph:
I thought DCPC trainers were supposed to know this stuffI disagree. I think DCPC trainers know where to find this stuff.
Which presumably should be the regulations if thatâs the subject theyâre instructing about ?
Wheel Nut:
Diesel Dave will never give an answer off the top of his head unless it is one of the very basic rules, it is the same with VOSA, they think they know, but do they really?
Iâve never seen DD ask drivers to explain the ADR regulations to him so he can then claim that thereâs too little understanding of them amongst drivers and therefore training needs to be compulsory 
Wheel Nut:
I believe a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, it is proven day after day in my weekend job for the ACU.
A little understanding in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing but I canât honestly say I understand the relevance of this
Wheel Nut:
Open book exams are much more use than learning a little parrot fashion
I completely agree and have said before that this is the best way to learn and remember what youâve learned, but this simply goes to support my argument that DCPC compulsory training attendance is a waste of time and money.
shep532:
tachograph:
I thought DCPC trainers were supposed to know this stuffNah! You only need to know the bits you deliver as training.
But if the training is about the regulations do you not think the drivers who are being forced to attend that training have a right to expect the instructor to have learned his subject thoroughly ?
Iâm not suggesting that instructors should know everything there is to know about the subject theyâre instructing on, clearly that would be unreasonable.
Working to mixed regulations is a bit of a minefield and confusing, but honestly what and who the EU regulations apply to is I would have thought something that anyone instructing on the subject of EU regulations could reasonably be expected to have a decent knowledge of, and unfortunately from the replies here, and the apparent lack of idea one way or the other it becomes obvious that isnât the case.
shep532:
This is a matter to be discussed with VOSA as I believe that no matter what you or I say or decide the rules say - the man that matters is the man stood in your office wearing a VOSA Hi-Vis
VOSA enforce the regulations itâs up-to a court to decide whether or not they interpret them correctly, so no I wouldnât say the only man who matters is wearing a VOSA hi-viz.
I would say this is the ultimate thing that matters.
shep532:
Anyway - I thought Trucknet made allowances for trainers
I lied about that
Simon:
tachograph:
I thought DCPC trainers were supposed to know this stuffMwahahahaha, you still believe that, after all weâve said over the years ?
LOL, no I donât really believe that, the comment was made a bit tongue in cheek
OK - I get a hint of âtrainerismâ going on here
For the original theme of this thread - mixed EU and Domestic rules in the same shift I will hold my hand up and say I had missed a trick there and it caught me completely by surprise. The domestic limits must be adhered to (both driving and duty) for that shift no matter what combination of vehicles are driven or when. I believed it was possible to operate soley to EU Rules for the shift - I was wrong. 
However - it is a valid comment that after 5 hours driving my little van - I get in my HGV and record 5 hours of work on my digi card. I have no legal requirement to record the 5 hours as driving. I must of course still take account of those 5 hours and stick to the domestic limit of 10 hours driving and 11 hours duty (but my breaks arenât duty).
For the latter part of this thread where the question âWho can confirm what the regs are for private HGV drivers hours?â was asked. I believe this is a trick question.
A private HGV is a heavy goods vehicle. A âgoods vehicleâ is a mechanically propelled vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the conveyance of goods or burden of any description, including samples. It is a vehicle designed and intended to carry goods and therefore is a goods vehicle. Therefore if over 7.5t EU rules apply whether carrying goods or not because it is a goods vehicle. That is my interpretation and I am sticking with it.
If somebody has a vehicle over 7.5t and for whatever reason or type of use or vehicular modifications can prove it does not and will not carry goods then they could obtain an exemption certificate. With said certificate they can merrily avoid EU Rules because the vehicle would be proven to no longer be a goods vehicle - it would just be a heavy vehicle.
Therefore I believe the answer to âWho can confirm what the regs are for private HGV drivers hours?â is - No rules if under 7.5t and EU Rules if over 7.5t. Anyone intending not to follow EU Rules with a vehicle over 7.5t would be wise to seek legal advice first as proving their exemption may prove costly and difficult.
I have read article 1 and 2 as kindly suggested. I had already read them before, but I read them again. I believe it comes down to whether it is or isnât a goods vehicle, not whether it does or does not carry goods.
I suppose there may be someone out there drives a 17t box van round and claims it is just his form of transport. He never carries anything in or on it, the back is completely empty - itâs just a flaming big car etc etc. Hard to believe though and I am sure at the roadside some very interesting conversations would take place and I am sure it would need to end up in court.
So - what I havenât seen yet is an example of this vehicle that is over 7.5t and exempt EU rules. Maybe if I could grasp that bit I could see the point. I know a bloke who has a big articulated trailer converted to living accomodation. He tows it with a tractor unit that only ever tows that trailer and it is only ever used for personal weekend activities not connected to any business. it is taxed as a private HGV. He didnât use a tacho until he was pulled by VOSA one Sunday. He claimed it was a showmans vehicle - which it was when he bought it off a showman - but he aint no showman so now itâs a goods vehicle. He then pulled out his âPrivate Useâ card - and it is only ever used for private use but it seems VOSA had some kind of card that trumped his private use card. Whatever VOSA said to him - right or wrong - he decided it was now better to use a tacho etc as he didnât fancy a day in court.
Of course there is a pretty good chance I am so wrong I would be more wrong than a well known now dead DJ with a cigar ⌠
I would be very surprised if VOSA gave a driver an infringement for going over 11 hours of work when doing a domestic and EU shift
Is there actually a sanction for doing that?
I say surprised because the domestic regs have not been updated to keep up with the changes in EU regs and IMO the EU regs would now take precidence
As the max possible driving hours in a shift are the same for both then there is no real confict on that point and it makes sense safety wise
ROG:
As the max possible driving hours in a shift are the same for both then there is no real confict on that point and it makes sense safety wise
It does make sense if people stick to the rules but ⌠if some people drive 5 hours non-stop in a 3.5t van, they then get in the HGV and record 5 hours of work they have done nothing wrong. They now carry on under EU rules ignoring the fact they just did 5 hours driving, ignoring domestic rules and taking their driving up to 9 hours and duty to a potential 15 hours. I think very little chance of getting caught. I know a company does this a few times a week. it is shared around the drivers so if you look at their records you see nothing suspect. They make sure it is always little van first - then HGV, never the other way.
They had quite a bit of VOSA attention last year, records checked and some taken away and nothing but a few minor infringements that had been dealt with by the company. No action taken against anybody. I know they told a few little lies - âOh yes the lads work in the warehouse in the morning hence the few hours of work before they driveâ kind of thing.
If by some miracle they are stopped in the little van - no records, nothing wrong. Later the same day stopped in the HGV, they would have to be very unlucky and get the same VOSA guy who recognises them or a VOSA guy that enquires about the 5 hours work they have entered and doesnât believe what they say and checks further.
All it needs is compulsory records in the little vans and driving of domestic vehicle counting towards driving of EU.
It is a minor detail and probably effects only a small percentage of drivers.
Much like the discussions of what is a HGV/carrying goods/not carrying goods/over 7.5t and what isnât - I canât imagine coming across a driver of a private HGV vehicle sitting in a DCPC course. They would be exempt CPC anyway!
shep532:
I have read article 1 and 2 as kindly suggested. I had already read them before, but I read them again. I believe it comes down to whether it is or isnât a goods vehicle, not whether it does or does not carry goods.
If that was the case then you wouldnât need a tacho in a LWB landrover that pulls a heavy trailer. In reality you do. What qualifies it to use a tachograph?
Mike-C:
shep532:
I have read article 1 and 2 as kindly suggested. I had already read them before, but I read them again. I believe it comes down to whether it is or isnât a goods vehicle, not whether it does or does not carry goods.If that was the case then you wouldnât need a tacho in a LWB landrover that pulls a heavy trailer. In reality you do. What qualifies it to use a tachograph?
But we were talking about a private HGV - not a landrover or other such vehicle with a trailer. Anyway - by my reckoning the trailer is the goods carrying vehicle - obvious innit. if it wasnât carrying goods we wouldnât be having this conversation.
I would suggest without looking anything up that a dual purpose vehicle such as a Mitsubishi crew cab would generally be a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage of both goods and passengers. Therefore it could easily be construed to be a goods vehicle. Of course a normal 4x4 as opposed to these crew cab pickup things is possibly not constructed to carry goods and is therefore only a passenger carrying vehicle - however - surely the trailer is constructed or designed to carry goods (in most cases - why else have it) meaning it is therefore a goods carrying vehicle and by attaching that to the 4x4 it gives the 4x4 goods carrying capacity and the combination becomes a goods vehicle for as long as the goods carrying trailer is attached. And it is that all important train weight that decides what then happens and whether or not it then needs a tachograph comes down to the same criteria of weight and usage. 3.5t to 7.5t vehicle or train weight used for commercial purposes needs a tacho. used for private use - no tacho.
Now if we are all just going to keep throwing different examples in youâre just gonna confuse me - which is probably the idea