ROG:
Ragnarok:
Thank you Rog for your answer to my question at the head of this thread, it has certainly stimulated an interesting debateYouâre welcome
What I should have done is to stop at that post and not gone any further = lesson learned !!
Thatâll be my fault then, I do apologise! 
limeyphil:
I respect your knowledge on here, and itâs quite nice to put you right. (very rare)
but if a trailer comes from abroad, then you are subject to EU regs.
for example:
a haulier with a national oâlicence can not collect an EU loaded trailer from the docks.(legally)
i could go on, But i know itâs the sort of thing you can add up for yourself.
Sorry Phil, that used to be the case several long years ago, but no longer.
Wheel Nut:
limeyphil:
I respect your knowledge on here, and itâs quite nice to put you right. (very rare)
but if a trailer comes from abroad, then you are subject to EU regs.
for example:
a haulier with a national oâlicence can not collect an EU loaded trailer from the docks.(legally)
i could go on, But i know itâs the sort of thing you can add up for yourself.Sorry Phil, that used to be the case several long years ago, but no longer.
Iâm not even sure it was the case years ago. If you did have a National O licence then that must have been after de nationalisation (or privatisation), so you could pick up any trailer. If it was before privatisation (or de nationalisation) then it would have probably bee due to the war that you where allowed to collect anything.
Example of such an exemption 
What Phil says and youâre agreeing with is not correct.
Mike-C:
Wheel Nut:
limeyphil:
I respect your knowledge on here, and itâs quite nice to put you right. (very rare)
but if a trailer comes from abroad, then you are subject to EU regs.
for example:
a haulier with a national oâlicence can not collect an EU loaded trailer from the docks.(legally)
i could go on, But i know itâs the sort of thing you can add up for yourself.Sorry Phil, that used to be the case several long years ago, but no longer.
Iâm not even sure it was the case years ago. If you did have a National O licence then that must have been after de nationalisation (or privatisation), so you could pick up any trailer. If it was before privatisation (or de nationalisation) then it would have probably bee due to the war that you where allowed to collect anything.
Example of such an exemption
What Phil says and youâre agreeing with is not correct.
Great Find. I think the EU came into being after WW2, 1952 and even after A, B & C licensing Mike. However if it makes you feel special. 
The Domestic Hours Regulations we still use today were published in the Transport Act of 1968.
However the part Phil may be interested in is here;
A standard national licence allows you to carry your own goods on your own account, or other peopleâs goods for hire or reward, in Great Britain and to carry your own goods on your own account abroad. This will allow you to haul loaded trailers to or from ports within Great Britain as long as your vehicle does not actually leave Great Britain.
Wheel Nut:
Great Find. I think the EU came into being after WW2, 1952 and even after A, B & C licensing Mike. However if it makes you feel special.
Hey i never found it, it came to me. Iâve some older from the same source when they did have horse and carts. But the point iâm making is that there where no restrictions on what you could carry once you had the O licence, well by that i mean if you could carry third party freight across the UK then thats what you could do. It wasnât dependant upon where it was from.
Wheel Nut:
The Domestic Hours Regulations we still use today were published in the Transport Act of 1968.However the part Phil may be interested in is here;
A standard national licence allows you to carry your own goods on your own account, or other peopleâs goods for hire or reward, in Great Britain and to carry your own goods on your own account abroad. This will allow you to haul loaded trailers to or from ports within Great Britain as long as your vehicle does not actually leave Great Britain.
And this is the nugget of information that tells us that since privatisation of the road transport industry its been fine to pull EU loaded trailers out of UK docks on a standard licence. It would of been impossible before
that without a specific exemption like i posted above. So you telling Phil it was the case years ago wasnât strictly true, nor remotley true.
Depending upon exactly what year Phil is talking about will reveal wether an exemption or an o licence was needed. Or to put it shorter ,Phils talking â â â â â â â â . I never agreed with him. Nor you. Just looking for the facts.
Mike-C:
Wheel Nut:
Great Find. I think the EU came into being after WW2, 1952 and even after A, B & C licensing Mike. However if it makes you feel special.Hey i never found it, it came to me. Iâve some older from the same source when they did have horse and carts. But the point iâm making is that there where no restrictions on what you could carry once you had the O licence, well by that i mean if you could carry third party freight across the UK then thats what you could do. It wasnât dependant upon where it was from.
Wheel Nut:
The Domestic Hours Regulations we still use today were published in the Transport Act of 1968.However the part Phil may be interested in is here;
A standard national licence allows you to carry your own goods on your own account, or other peopleâs goods for hire or reward, in Great Britain and to carry your own goods on your own account abroad. This will allow you to haul loaded trailers to or from ports within Great Britain as long as your vehicle does not actually leave Great Britain.
And this is the nugget of information that tells us that since privatisation of the road transport industry its been fine to pull EU loaded trailers out of UK docks on a standard licence. It would of been impossible before
that without a specific exemption like i posted above. So you telling Phil it was the case years ago wasnât strictly true, nor remotley true.
Depending upon exactly what year Phil is talking about will reveal wether an exemption or an o licence was needed. Or to put it shorter ,Phils talking â â â â â â â â . I never agreed with him. Nor you. Just looking for the facts.
In the early days of Operator Licensing any operator who was pulling ferry trailers from the continent used to need an International Operators Licence. It didnât affect Lancashire flats & containers because the container is the load, empty or loaded. But LOLO or RORO trailers were classed as part of a load or such like, they had wheels anyway.
geebee45:
Collecting / returning loaded or empty trailers (remember Booth vs DPP defined an empty semi-trailer as a load, as it imparts a burden on the drawing vehicle) from UK ports you only require a Standard National op licence. However, your vehicle may not leave the UK. The really confusing one is that a company operating on a Restricted licence (carrying their own goods) can run abroad quite legally provided they carry only their own goods and do not carry out any hire or reward work.
Be really careful with CMR insurance. The whole journey will be under the CMR limits (much higher than FTA/RHA limits), no matter what your âterms of businessâ say. I know a lot of hauliers who have got badly caught out by a CMR insurance claim
This was posted in 2004.
The reason I remembered that other thread and Geebees answer was that when I started on tankers I was working for a Dutch company who had an office in Formby, they sent me a low slung chassis over from Spijkenisse for a job in Dalry. At the time the Ministry of Transport had just build a self weigh facility in Hull docks which was regularly manned when the ferries came in. I only had a Standard National licence and was stopped and warned about it several times. When I said the trailer stayed in England they began checking up. It was then that we found out the trailer had to return to the continent every 3 months or something.
Now to throw a spanner in the works -
Who can confirm what the regs are for private hgv drivers hours â â
Richard
scourfield:
Now to throw a spanner in the works -Who can confirm what the regs are for private hgv drivers hours â â
Richard
Private LGV are not under domestic regs
Private LGV over 7.5 tonnes GVW is under EU regs
ROG:
Private LGV over 7.5 tonnes GVW is under EU regs
How do you know this? I thought EU regs only applied to the carriage of goods by road?
Mike-C:
ROG:
Private LGV over 7.5 tonnes GVW is under EU regsHow do you know this? I thought EU regs only applied to the carriage of goods by road?
The amended rules since 2007 do restrict private use to 7.5t.
Mike-C:
ROG:
Private LGV over 7.5 tonnes GVW is under EU regsHow do you know this? I thought EU regs only applied to the carriage of goods by road?
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ⌠013:EN:PDF
Article 3
This Regulation shall not apply to carriage by road by:
(h) vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7,5 tonnes used for the
non-commercial carriage of goods;
scourfield:
Now to throw a spanner in the works -Who can confirm what the regs are for private hgv drivers hours â â
Richard
If the vehicle has a MAM not exceeding 7.5 tonnes and is used for private use (not driven as an employee or as part of your business or for reward/payment) youâre exempt from both the EU and domestic drivers hours.
If youâre talking about a vehicle such as a show vehicle that does not at any time carry goods and is not used as part of your trade or business I believe you are exempt from both EU and domestic regulations regardless of whether or not the vehicle exceeds 7.5 tonnes.
tachograph:
If youâre talking about a vehicle such as a show vehicle that does not at any time carry goods and is not used as part of your trade or business I believe you are exempt from both EU and domestic regulations regardless of whether or not the vehicle exceeds 7.5 tonnes.
I could find such an exemption for circus vehicles but could not find one for general show vehicles over 7.5 - maybe I missed it
EU Regulations
Article 1
This Regulation lays down rules on driving times, breaks and
rest periods for drivers engaged in the carriage of goods and
passengers by road in order to harmonise the conditions of
competition between modes of inland transport, especially
with regard to the road sector, and to improve working
conditions and road safety. This Regulation also aims to
promote improved monitoring and enforcement practices by
Member States and improved working practices in the road
transport industry.
Article 4
For the purposes of this Regulation the following definitions
shall apply:
(a) âcarriage by roadâ means any journey made entirely or in
part on roads open to the public by a vehicle, whether
laden or not, used for the carriage of passengers or
goods;
Domestic regulations
(3)This Part of this Act applies to any such person as follows (in this Part of this Act referred to as âa driverâ), that is to sayâ
(a)a person who drives a vehicle to which this Part of this Act applies in the course of his employment (in this Part of this Act referred to as âan employee-driverâ); and
(b)a person who drives such a vehicle for the purposes of a trade or business carried on by him (in this Part of this Act referred to as âan owner-driverâ);
ROG:
Mike-C:
ROG:
Private LGV over 7.5 tonnes GVW is under EU regsHow do you know this? I thought EU regs only applied to the carriage of goods by road?
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ⌠013:EN:PDF
Article 3
This Regulation shall not apply to carriage by road by:
(h) vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7,5 tonnes used for the
non-commercial carriage of goods;
I see that ROG, but before you get to that bit. It does state
Article 2
- This Regulation shall apply to the carriage by road:
a) of goodsâŚ
Article 4
(a)
âcarriage by roadâ means any journey made entirely or in
part on roads open to the public by a vehicle, whether
laden or not, used for the carriage of passengers or
goods;
Which is pretty much what Tachograph has just pointed out. Iâm uncertain of how you can ignore this bit and fastrack along to the weights of vehicles carrying goods when weâre talking about private vehicles that do not carry goods.
Mrpj mentions a 2007 change, but i canât seem to find it? Also to note that that if a vehicle over 7.5tones does carry goods it needs to be operator licensed, if its not the it canât carry goods (iâd of thought) ?
Unless someone can point something different out to me that iâve missed i canât see how a private registered and used HGV that does not carry goods and has no O licence would come under such legislation?
I wonder if VOSA would regard a 18 tonne LGV which was simply a âshow vehicleâ as tacho exempt âŚ
I could find such an exemption for circus vehicles but could not find one for general show vehicles over 7.5 - maybe I missed it
[/quote]
Mike-C:
Mrpj mentions a 2007 change, but i canât seem to find it?
I posted it -
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ⌠013:EN:PDF
Article 3
This Regulation shall not apply to carriage by road by:
(h) vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7,5 tonnes used for the
non-commercial carriage of goods;
ROG:
I could find such an exemption for circus vehicles but could not find one for general show vehicles over 7.5 - maybe I missed it
[/quote]
Without going round in circles, exemptions are exactly what they say. Weâre not talking nor asking about exemptions for goods vehicles carrying goods. You wonât find an exemption for a goods carrying vehicle for a vehicle that does not carry goods? So to make it clear iâm not interested in finding out who or what has âexemptionsâ, iâm looking to clarify exactly what vehicles come in scope of the regs.
ROG:
Mike-C:
Mrpj mentions a 2007 change, but i canât seem to find it?I posted it -
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ⌠013:EN:PDF
Article 3
This Regulation shall not apply to carriage by road by:
(h) vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7,5 tonnes used for the
non-commercial carriage of goods;
[/quote]
Thereâs that old âcarriage by roadâ bit again. Already defined above.
Looks pretty much to me that unless someone comes up with something new here that you can indeed just drive a private HGV and you do not come under any drivers hours legislation. Of course thats with the proviso that you are not licensed to carry goods and of course you are/do not carrying any goods.
ROG:
tachograph:
If youâre talking about a vehicle such as a show vehicle that does not at any time carry goods and is not used as part of your trade or business I believe you are exempt from both EU and domestic regulations regardless of whether or not the vehicle exceeds 7.5 tonnes.I could find such an exemption for circus vehicles but could not find one for general show vehicles over 7.5 - maybe I missed it
Just to clarify, I never said there was an exemption, I said âyou are exemptâ, as in, not needing to comply with âŚ
