It doesn’t matter what the wording is, unless the passenger is there to work as in double manning then he does not need to put card in
Can you imagine a court case guy gets picked up for lift home and copper does him for not having card in
It does not happen and never will
Unbelievably some people here overthink things, what a life
As I said in another post the rules are there for you to work them to your advantage not follow them like your living in a ■■■■ state, like you will get shot if you don’t follow them to the letter
andy187:
Okay… so we have tractor units with 4 seats, Driver assessor and 3 company drivers. And only 2 slots for 4 drivers…are 2 going to get £300 FPNs if stopped!?
No
beefy4605:
andy187:
Okay… so we have tractor units with 4 seats, Driver assessor and 3 company drivers. And only 2 slots for 4 drivers…are 2 going to get £300 FPNs if stopped!?No
Not if they started before 6am, but no later than 7, and drove with a hat on (before their 45min break of course) in excess of 101 miles.
I know my stuff me. 
robroy:
beefy4605:
andy187:
Okay… so we have tractor units with 4 seats, Driver assessor and 3 company drivers. And only 2 slots for 4 drivers…are 2 going to get £300 FPNs if stopped!?No
Not if they started before 6am, but no later than 7, and drove with a hat on (before their 45min break of course) in excess of 101 miles.
I know my stuff me.
Where it differs mate, I always understood it to be without a hat on and only wear the hat after 101 miles. Its so bloody confusing!!!
beefy4605:
robroy:
@beefy.
Bit of a ‘‘Wooosh’’ moment going on here I reckon..
Never mind mate,.I get your sense of humour as I’ve been laughing to myself all through this thread…,.I know I shouldn’t in case I upset somebody more serious than myself… but there ya go.
Anyhoo…I’d nominate this guy.
(As long as he had a valid PSV licence and an up to date drivers card on his person of course…rules is rules
)
youtu.be/NSdYh1W2KSEIm now at a stage in my life where I don’t much care anymore . I’ve seen so much nonsence gradually creep into this industry over the last 25 years, I had a driver trainer / senior driver try to tell me that the new generation of bluetooth tachos would automaticaly send my speeding infringements to VOSA and the fines would be automatically issued - he had been on a training course and thats what he had been told . He wasn’t impressed when I asked him when Vosa had started issuing speeding tickets as as far as I knew that was the Polices job - he had no answer for that one and didn’t take it well in front of 10 of his junior drivers .
A little common sense is a wonderfull thing problem is in this industry it seems its not that common .
Now I know you’re not a here in a training capacity, but you are also giving out wrong information, but the difference is his wrong information isn’t going to potentially cost anyone, yours is, £300
robroy:
stevieboy308:
robroy:
8wheels:
Some interesting things crop up when looking at this‘‘Interesting’’ may be stretching it a bit.
Amazement would be a better word, …amazed at how the job has been reduced to pedantic crap by those who make the rules, and those who enjoy discussing them, where a driver has to think twice about something as mundane as innocently riding passenger in a truck., as to whether or not he is doing wrong even if he has no intention of driving it, but only because he ‘‘could’’ drive it, or is qualified to do so
Is it just me or what, who can not believe stuff like this today in the job.Anyhoo, some of you seem to right across it, so I’ll leave you all to discuss it further .
I wonder which other industries you get looked down on for knowing the regs? It usually works the other way!
Driving the truck is the easy bit, and being a truck driver isn’t just knowing how to drive a truck.
The industry is famous for massively running bent on the past, but now you’re complaining because of the regulation to stop it.
It’s really easy to find and read the regs, they’ve been online your years, but you’ve not read them but complain when there’s a rule you wouldn’t expect or don’t understand why it is like it is, put yourself in your old mindset and I’m sure you can work out why it is like it is.
You ain’t gonna change it, so you can keep moaning about it, or spend a little bit of time to learn it, I know it’s cool to moan about the regs though!
I know, not worth it, not interested, nearly retired, can’t wait to get out, best years are long gone…!
Start the reply with wow?
I know, I’m what’s wrong with the industry
Ok just for you…‘Wow’.
Wind yer neck in mate, …who tf is ‘‘looking down on you’’
Rather than ’ moaning’ as you put it, I was more making an observation on how those that make these stupid bloody rules have drivers ■■■■■■■■ their pants over them, when there is no real need.
Just look at some of the questions on here from time to time…‘‘I’ve gone a minute over my time’’ (exaggeration btw) what should I do?I’ve already pointed out I understand why (fines) and I was just making a point.
But thanks for explaining the definition of a truck driver for me anyway.I certainly ain’t complaining that we don’t run bent anymore, I’m saying that it has gone to the extreme opposite end of the spectrum, whereby some of this stuff has by passed common sense,
A happy medium is surely a better situation to work under.It’s still an ‘‘innocent until proven guilty’’ state of play last time I looked, so if I’m innocently getting a lift, or maybe on a ride out even,.I don’t want to be bothered in case some over zealous copper or whoever is going to nick me for it.
As for learning the ins and outs and every little detail of all this stuff., I do quite fine thanks on my ‘‘need to know policy’’.proven by, as if my magic I almost never get an infringement,.(not that I’m too bothered if I do…sorry
) so I must be doing something right, I just don’t get all menstrual about it all, that is my point…(before you go off on another one,.I ain’t saying you do either.
)
So you don’t have little digs at people who now the regs very well?
That comes from other drivers that don’t have a clue, I’ve pointed out to plenty that fines start once you’re 15 minutes over, but once you’ve had a rest period you need to be over by more than 2 hours unless it’s too frequent, people don’t believe me, crazy I know! But it’s all in black an White, but the vast majority haven’t got a clue
It might not be anywhere near as prevalent, but all relatively recently I new a guy running 2 cards, another used to “forget” to write their name on the wax chart, drive to Scotland, with the plan if stopped on the way to play the silly me routine, if not take it out write his brother’s name on it and fill out one for himself to drive back, and my mate helped out every now and then at a mainly 7.5t firm, 2 drivers, 1st does his shift, card out 2nd puts his card in and starts his shift, non of this limit to 21 hours malarkey!
Granted it wouldn’t take long once stopped to work out what they were up to, so non where mastermind level scams, but it’s rules to stop them then end up including getting a lift to the chippy with a work mate etc.
But what’s your happy medium, anything that impacts you negatively isn’t going to be in your happy medium is it? You might be generally by the book now, but you weren’t and they write the regs knowing people will exploit any loop holes they leave, but that’s life, you can’t have legislation for good dudes, you lads no need to put your card in to go to the chippy, bad dude edition, we know what you’re up to, you wronguns, sure you’re just nipping to the chippy, get your card in son.
Then if you don’t want to be bothered, put your card in, intent to drive is irrelevant, if you’ve not got your card in when the legislation says you should, then you’re guilty, it’s proved right there by you sitting there and your card not in slot 2, they make a quick call to the firm, “yeah of course robroy would drive it” your defense is relying on there being no intent, but no intent isn’t in the legislation, so you’re gonna be £300 lighter
It wouldn’t surprise me if you’ve got a better standard of understanding that the average driver, but the average driver isn’t that clued up, wouldn’t you agree?
No Infringements does mean someone has a good understanding, I could say you’re wrong with your 4.5 and 45 interpretation, you can’t drive for more than 3.5 and then you must take a 1 hours break, I must be right as I never get infringements doing it my way!
Bigtruck3:
It doesn’t matter what the wording is, unless the passenger is there to work as in double manning then he does not need to put card in
Can you imagine a court case guy gets picked up for lift home and copper does him for not having card in
It does not happen and never will
Unbelievably some people here overthink things, what a life
As I said in another post the rules are there for you to work them to your advantage not follow them like your living in a ■■■■ state, like you will get shot if you don’t follow them to the letter
Of course it matters what the wording is! It’s bonkers to say otherwise.
This is what the words that matter say.
‘driver’ means any person who drives the vehicle even for a short period, or who is carried in a vehicle as part of his duties to be available for driving if necessary;
So if you get stopped say getting a lift from a colleague to the garage to pick a truck up, and you’ve not got your card in, they’ll issue a fixed penalty notice of £300, you can choose to accept and pay that, or you can opt to go to court to argue your case,
You would then need to point out why your weren’t classed as a driver for that journey and therefore didn’t need to put your card in,
You would surely bring up the definition of a driver from the legislation and demonstrate why you fit that description.
Here it is again
(c)
‘driver’ means any person who drives the vehicle even for a short period, or who is carried in a vehicle as part of his duties to be available for driving if necessary;
Now if you can’t convince them that you don’t fit that criteria, then it’s usually the case that the fine issued from the court is quite a bit more than the fpn option
stevieboy308:
robroy:
stevieboy308:
robroy:
‘‘Interesting’’ may be stretching it a bit.Amazement would be a better word, …amazed at how the job has been reduced to pedantic crap by those who make the rules, and those who enjoy discussing them, where a driver has to think twice about something as mundane as innocently riding passenger in a truck., as to whether or not he is doing wrong even if he has no intention of driving it, but only because he ‘‘could’’ drive it, or is qualified to do so
Is it just me or what, who can not believe stuff like this today in the job.Anyhoo, some of you seem to right across it, so I’ll leave you all to discuss it further .
I wonder which other industries you get looked down on for knowing the regs? It usually works the other way!
Driving the truck is the easy bit, and being a truck driver isn’t just knowing how to drive a truck.
The industry is famous for massively running bent on the past, but now you’re complaining because of the regulation to stop it.
It’s really easy to find and read the regs, they’ve been online your years, but you’ve not read them but complain when there’s a rule you wouldn’t expect or don’t understand why it is like it is, put yourself in your old mindset and I’m sure you can work out why it is like it is.
You ain’t gonna change it, so you can keep moaning about it, or spend a little bit of time to learn it, I know it’s cool to moan about the regs though!
I know, not worth it, not interested, nearly retired, can’t wait to get out, best years are long gone…!
Start the reply with wow?
I know, I’m what’s wrong with the industry
Ok just for you…‘Wow’.
Wind yer neck in mate, …who tf is ‘‘looking down on you’’
Rather than ’ moaning’ as you put it, I was more making an observation on how those that make these stupid bloody rules have drivers ■■■■■■■■ their pants over them, when there is no real need.
Just look at some of the questions on here from time to time…‘‘I’ve gone a minute over my time’’ (exaggeration btw) what should I do?I’ve already pointed out I understand why (fines) and I was just making a point.
But thanks for explaining the definition of a truck driver for me anyway.I certainly ain’t complaining that we don’t run bent anymore, I’m saying that it has gone to the extreme opposite end of the spectrum, whereby some of this stuff has by passed common sense,
A happy medium is surely a better situation to work under.It’s still an ‘‘innocent until proven guilty’’ state of play last time I looked, so if I’m innocently getting a lift, or maybe on a ride out even,.I don’t want to be bothered in case some over zealous copper or whoever is going to nick me for it.
As for learning the ins and outs and every little detail of all this stuff., I do quite fine thanks on my ‘‘need to know policy’’.proven by, as if my magic I almost never get an infringement,.(not that I’m too bothered if I do…sorry
So you don’t have little digs at people who now the regs very well?
That comes from other drivers that don’t have a clue, I’ve pointed out to plenty that fines start once you’re 15 minutes over, but once you’ve had a rest period you need to be over by more than 2 hours unless it’s too frequent, people don’t believe me, crazy I know! But it’s all in black an White, but the vast majority haven’t got a clue
It might not be anywhere near as prevalent, but all relatively recently I new a guy running 2 cards, another used to “forget” to write their name on the wax chart, drive to Scotland, with the plan if stopped on the way to play the silly me routine, if not take it out write his brother’s name on it and fill out one for himself to drive back, and my mate helped out every now and then at a mainly 7.5t firm, 2 drivers, 1st does his shift, card out 2nd puts his card in and starts his shift, non of this limit to 21 hours malarkey!
Granted it wouldn’t take long once stopped to work out what they were up to, so non where mastermind level scams, but it’s rules to stop them then end up including getting a lift to the chippy with a work mate etc.
But what’s your happy medium, anything that impacts you negatively isn’t going to be in your happy medium is it? You might be generally by the book now, but you weren’t and they write the regs knowing people will exploit any loop holes they leave, but that’s life, you can’t have legislation for good dudes, you lads no need to put your card in to go to the chippy, bad dude edition, we know what you’re up to, you wronguns, sure you’re just nipping to the chippy, get your card in son.
Then if you don’t want to be bothered, put your card in, intent to drive is irrelevant, if you’ve not got your card in when the legislation says you should, then you’re guilty, it’s proved right there by you sitting there and your card not in slot 2, they make a quick call to the firm, “yeah of course robroy would drive it” your defense is relying on there being no intent, but no intent isn’t in the legislation, so you’re gonna be £300 lighter
It wouldn’t surprise me if you’ve got a better standard of understanding that the average driver, but the average driver isn’t that clued up, wouldn’t you agree?
No Infringements does mean someone has a good understanding, I could say you’re wrong with your 4.5 and 45 interpretation, you can’t drive for more than 3.5 and then you must take a 1 hours break, I must be right as I never get infringements doing it my way!
Errr right,…ok mate.
Thanks for that…
I think. 
robroy:
Errr right,…ok mate.
Thanks for that…I think.
No problem
And today folks, ‘‘Rob’s word of the day’’ is…
‘OBLIVIOUS’.
I thank you.
stevieboy308:
You can’t be rescued by any means if you’re out of duty time
So how do you go on if you’re in a day cab, and through no fault of your own you run out of hours twenty miles from base?
Sidevalve:
stevieboy308:
You can’t be rescued by any means if you’re out of duty timeSo how do you go on if you’re in a day cab, and through no fault of your own you run out of hours twenty miles from base?
Assume you have a reduced (9hr) available. Your time runs out at 15hrs from start of day.
You shouldn`t start looking at the clock at 14hrs59min and be saying “Oh!” .
If you are waiting to tip or whatever, then get yourself “rescued” or whatever when you have time to get back legally.
It is no different to trying to find a parking place when you have one minute driving left.
If you are driving back to base, when you hit a queue caused by a recent accident, then that comes under unforeseen circumstances, and you should be OK to run on to park.
robroy:
And today folks, ‘‘Rob’s word of the day’’ is…
‘OBLIVIOUS’.I thank you.
I think today my word of the day will be - EGOMANIAC
beefy4605:
robroy:
And today folks, ‘‘Rob’s word of the day’’ is…
‘OBLIVIOUS’.I thank you.
I think today my word of the day will be - EGOMANIAC
Aye it’s a new service I’m providing, ‘‘Rob teaches English for drivers’’.
It’s actually a subject that I’m knowledgeable about,.and quite good at.
But I’ll stop short of coming on here patronising and pontificating others, trying to put across that I know everything about it,…that would just put me in a bad light…
Definitions of the day!
COUNTABLE NOUN
An egomaniac is someone who thinks only of themselves and does not care if they harm other people in order to get what they want.
[disapproval]
Adam is clever enough, but he’s also something of an egomaniac.
ADJECTIVE [usually verb-link ADJECTIVE]
If you are oblivious to something or oblivious of it, you are not aware of it.
She lay motionless where she was, oblivious to pain. [+ to/of]
Llewelyn appeared oblivious of his surroundings.
I know how some struggle with definitions, you’re welcome
Nice one Stevie…so you have a sense of humour after all.
robroy:
:lol:
Nice one Stevie…so you have a sense of humour after all.
Well hopefully that puts an end to that saga. I think it is quite clear that unless you are a solicitor the rules are very difficult to understand for your average driver to fully understand. I think we have to resign ourselves to either accepting infringements without fully understanding that we have done anything wrong or possibly go down the route of learning the rules into plain english that are not open to interpretation. Once you are interpreting the rules of driving that is where the water muddys. Applying common sense is the only thing that most of us can do.
Franglais:
Sidevalve:
stevieboy308:
You can’t be rescued by any means if you’re out of duty timeSo how do you go on if you’re in a day cab, and through no fault of your own you run out of hours twenty miles from base?
Assume you have a reduced (9hr) available. Your time runs out at 15hrs from start of day.
You shouldn`t start looking at the clock at 14hrs59min and be saying “Oh!” .
If you are waiting to tip or whatever, then get yourself “rescued” or whatever when you have time to get back legally.
It is no different to trying to find a parking place when you have one minute driving left.If you are driving back to base, when you hit a queue caused by a recent accident, then that comes under unforeseen circumstances, and you should be OK to run on to park.
That’s my understanding too, and of course you’d do a printout and write the reasons on it etc.
But, being pedantic here, should that delay be caused by a breakdown which cannot be fixed, then you’d HAVE to be rescued; which proves that Stevie’s comment, like many of the others, is not strictly correct and that there isn’t always an absolute yes or no.
Sidevalve:
Franglais:
Sidevalve:
stevieboy308:
You can’t be rescued by any means if you’re out of duty timeSo how do you go on if you’re in a day cab, and through no fault of your own you run out of hours twenty miles from base?
Assume you have a reduced (9hr) available. Your time runs out at 15hrs from start of day.
You shouldn`t start looking at the clock at 14hrs59min and be saying “Oh!” .
If you are waiting to tip or whatever, then get yourself “rescued” or whatever when you have time to get back legally.
It is no different to trying to find a parking place when you have one minute driving left.If you are driving back to base, when you hit a queue caused by a recent accident, then that comes under unforeseen circumstances, and you should be OK to run on to park.
That’s my understanding too, and of course you’d do a printout and write the reasons on it etc.
But, being pedantic here, should that delay be caused by a breakdown which cannot be fixed, then you’d HAVE to be rescued; which proves that Stevie’s comment, like many of the others, is not strictly correct and that there isn’t always an absolute yes or no.
You’re conflating 2 different things, a driver running out of time say an hour from the yard who doesn’t want to night out and a driver who’s broken down, the truck needs recovering
The point stands, once you’re out of duty time, your only option is rest, if it’s impossible for you to comply because of exceptional unforeseen circumstances, then it’s impossible for you to comply and the legislation makes provisions for that so you’re not prosecuted.