So,he should put his card in if he is with you,but who is responsible for this?
Can the driver get into trouble if the passenger doesnt put his card in?
Im talking about non double manning rules
If the other driver is "on the clock " being paid to sit there then they should have their card in . If its a mate getting a lift somewhere and they wont be driving then I’d say no they don’t need their card in as it’s their time which they are disposing of how they want .
Thats the very simple answer - there are many ways to complicate the answer if you so wish .lol
Ok,thanks
If they are being carried in the vehicle to be available to drive it if it becomes necessary, then they a defined as a driver for the EU regulations and as a driver you must insert your card, failure to do so is a £300 fine.
It’s irrelevant if there’s no intention to drive, you must also have the previous 28 days of records with you. So I don’t see you having an easy time explaining getting a lift off someone from work when you have a license for that vehicle and are insured to drive it without putting your card in, I’d expect a fpn.
This is often a point of contention here.
But to make it clear if your not double manning and your just say picking a mate up who happens to be a HGV driver and dropping him off somewhere.
He does not have to put his card in.
And you are not responsible at all if he decides not to even if he was breaking any rule by but not doing so.
I know some people are gonna accuse me of being wrong but I do not care.
Lets say you pick up a hitchhiker. You really gonna ask them if they are a HGV driver to work out if they should put their card in? And they may get fined for not putting their card in even though they have zero intention of driving?
Now, someone may say “well… what if you have a heart attack he/she may be expected to drive” Well at that point anyone may be required to move the vehicle if it is in a life threatening position.
Also do not forget that some HGV drivers do not even have a tacho card. As in some jobs it is not a requirement to use them.
stevieboy308:
If they are being carried in the vehicle to be available to drive it if it becomes necessary, then they a defined as a driver for the EU regulations and as a driver you must insert your card, failure to do so is a £300 fine.It’s irrelevant if there’s no intention to drive, you must also have the previous 28 days of records with you. So I don’t see you having an easy time explaining getting a lift off someone from work when you have a license for that vehicle and are insured to drive it without putting your card in, I’d expect a fpn.
Whether or not you intend to drive, or have a licence/insurance for that vehicle is irrelevant, isnt it? Example: A rigid driver does a quick run in the morning. He goes along to help an artic driver load in the afternoon. He isnt going to drive, but he is at work and so should use the available 2nd man slot. He must keep a record and charts etc are used when a tacho is not available.
gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … raph-rules
“On any day when driving that is in scope of the EU regulations takes place, drivers must use a tachograph to record…”
Back to the original case of a driver giving a mate a lift home?
I reckon if stopped you would have some explaining to do. It might well be legal but might raise several queries.
Is the company vehicle allowed to carry passengers under company/insurance rules? If not, then the passenger can`t be “just” a passenger, can they? They are only there by virtue of their position as an employee.
If the passenger is outside their 15hrs (or whatever) then putting the card in and out would show activity during daily rest and so raise an infringement.
Can of worms.
In the real world I would give a mate a lift, but unusual cases defy common sense.
I’m no expert and I’m certainly not au fait with double manning rules quite simply because I’ve never needed to be, but (and as always I stand to be corrected) surely if you pick another driver up partway through yours and his/hers shift irrespective of whether or not they will be driving inserting their card brings you into the realms of double manning?
If so then I’m sure I heard somewhere that the second man must insert their card within 60 minutes of the first driver? If that is true then you’ll be falling foul of that?
Feel free to correct.
the maoster:
I’m no expert and I’m certainly not au fait with double manning rules quite simply because I’ve never needed to be, but (and as always I stand to be corrected) surely if you pick another driver up partway through yours and his/hers shift irrespective of whether or not they will be driving inserting their card brings you into the realms of double manning?If so then I’m sure I heard somewhere that the second man must insert their card within 60 minutes of the first driver? If that is true then you’ll be falling foul of that?
Feel free to correct.
Quick (honest!) answer:
If you want to take advantage of extended working day under double manning rules, (30hr day not 24hr, so getting daily 9hr rest in allows a 21hr “spreadover”)then yes, the 2nd man must be on board within an hr of 1st man starting.
It is legal to collect 2nd man at any time, but if the 2nd man gets in after the first hr, then the crew is limited to 24hr day. (and 15hr “spreadover”)
I reckon my use of “spreadover” will be understood by many. although it isn`t used at all in the regs.
That ^^^ makes sense, thank you.
So our place pay us salary and manage our hours by keeping us as close to the 48hr average as practical each reference period. Consequently using POA is frowned upon from the office and detrimental to the driver, along with using more rest time than needed during shift (office would be happy but does driver no favours).
We don’t double man routinely, however new starts get to go out with another driver for some shifts. In principle this is with the existing driver as an observer and guide and the new start doing all the driving.
The office line is that you don’t have your card in slot 2, but record manual entries for your shift at the end of the day.
You could be pedantic and argue this still covers the requirement to have your working activities recorded on your digicard, but that you are doing so manually at the end of your shift rather than the tacho head saving them in slot2. In addition could you also question if POA is valid as the activity if you are a passenger and either assessing a drivers skills or providing routing and site information for the actual driver.
If the time came to get a vosa pull and I was the passenger with my digicard in my wallet, I would expect a rough bit of questioning and am not totally convinced it would wash with them.
njl:
So our place pay us salary and manage our hours by keeping us as close to the 48hr average as practical each reference period. Consequently using POA is frowned upon from the office and detrimental to the driver, along with using more rest time than needed during shift (office would be happy but does driver no favours).We don’t double man routinely, however new starts get to go out with another driver for some shifts. In principle this is with the existing driver as an observer and guide and the new start doing all the driving.
The office line is that you don’t have your card in slot 2, but record manual entries for your shift at the end of the day.
You could be pedantic and argue this still covers the requirement to have your working activities recorded on your digicard, but that you are doing so manually at the end of your shift rather than the tacho head saving them in slot2. In addition could you also question if POA is valid as the activity if you are a passenger and either assessing a drivers skills or providing routing and site information for the actual driver.
If the time came to get a vosa pull and I was the passenger with my digicard in my wallet, I would expect a rough bit of questioning and am not totally convinced it would wash with them.
It wouldn’t wash, it’s totally illegal the way your company want you to do it, I wouldn’t do it their way, it’s a £300 fine for not having your card in when you should.
The correct way to do it for your situation is card in, then do a printout to record the other work that your doing by instructing / observing etc if that’s what you’re doing during the driving.
Franglais:
stevieboy308:
If they are being carried in the vehicle to be available to drive it if it becomes necessary, then they a defined as a driver for the EU regulations and as a driver you must insert your card, failure to do so is a £300 fine.It’s irrelevant if there’s no intention to drive, you must also have the previous 28 days of records with you. So I don’t see you having an easy time explaining getting a lift off someone from work when you have a license for that vehicle and are insured to drive it without putting your card in, I’d expect a fpn.
Whether or not you intend to drive, or have a licence/insurance for that vehicle is irrelevant, isn
t it? Example: A rigid driver does a quick run in the morning. He goes along to help an artic driver load in the afternoon. He isnt going to drive, but he is at work and so should use the available 2nd man slot. He must keep a record and charts etc are used when a tacho is not available.
gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … raph-rules
“On any day when driving that is in scope of the EU regulations takes place, drivers must use a tachograph to record…”Back to the original case of a driver giving a mate a lift home?
I reckon if stopped you would have some explaining to do. It might well be legal but might raise several queries.Is the company vehicle allowed to carry passengers under company/insurance rules? If not, then the passenger can`t be “just” a passenger, can they? They are only there by virtue of their position as an employee.
If the passenger is outside their 15hrs (or whatever) then putting the card in and out would show activity during daily rest and so raise an infringement.
Can of worms.
In the real world I would give a mate a lift, but unusual cases defy common sense.
I personally would put it in as you need to make a record anyway so it’s just easier, but I don’t believe there’s a reason you must if it’s in a vehicle that you can’t drive, plus you could have left your card in your vehicle on other work so could be the easiest option instead of having to do a printout if you were actually doing work as a passenger
adam277:
This is often a point of contention here.But to make it clear if your not double manning and your just say picking a mate up who happens to be a HGV driver and dropping him off somewhere.
He does not have to put his card in.
And you are not responsible at all if he decides not to even if he was breaking any rule by but not doing so.I know some people are gonna accuse me of being wrong but I do not care.
Lets say you pick up a hitchhiker. You really gonna ask them if they are a HGV driver to work out if they should put their card in? And they may get fined for not putting their card in even though they have zero intention of driving?
Now, someone may say “well… what if you have a heart attack he/she may be expected to drive” Well at that point anyone may be required to move the vehicle if it is in a life threatening position.Also do not forget that some HGV drivers do not even have a tacho card. As in some jobs it is not a requirement to use them.
If the mate doesn’t work for that firm and therefore wouldn’t drive the vehicle if it becomes necessary, then he doesn’t need to put his card in.
If your giving a lad from work a lift to the garage so he can pick a unit up, then he must insert his card as he would drive that vehicle if it becomes necessary
stevieboy308:
Franglais:
Example: A rigid driver does a quick run in the morning. He goes along to help an artic driver load in the afternoon. He isn`t going to drive, but he is at work and so should use the available 2nd man slot. He must keep a record and charts etc are used when a tacho is not availableI personally would put it in as you need to make a record anyway so it’s just easier, but I don’t believe there’s a reason you must if it’s in a vehicle that you can’t drive, plus you could have left your card in your vehicle on other work so could be the easiest option instead of having to do a printout if you were actually doing work as a passenger
If you’re referring to the rigid driver not able to drive the artic, it’s quite possible they might. If the artic driver was to drop the trailer on a bay then run back solo, the rigid driver could drive it.
So, what if you’re taking 2 drivers to collect 2 units? 
Sploom:
Can the driver get into trouble if the passenger doesnt put his card in?
I don’t see anybody has answered this?
I would expect the answer to be no as we are dealing with adults, not children (a driver is only responsible for children to wear seatbelts).
I passed my test in 2012 and didn’t use a tacho card during the lessons.
Not sure instructor did either.
Did 6 hours a day roughly altough we did stop half way though for a coffe
And how does it work as seen some places giving lessons with 2 pupils sat in there.
stevieboy308:
adam277:
This is often a point of contention here.But to make it clear if your not double manning and your just say picking a mate up who happens to be a HGV driver and dropping him off somewhere.
He does not have to put his card in.
And you are not responsible at all if he decides not to even if he was breaking any rule by but not doing so.I know some people are gonna accuse me of being wrong but I do not care.
Lets say you pick up a hitchhiker. You really gonna ask them if they are a HGV driver to work out if they should put their card in? And they may get fined for not putting their card in even though they have zero intention of driving?
Now, someone may say “well… what if you have a heart attack he/she may be expected to drive” Well at that point anyone may be required to move the vehicle if it is in a life threatening position.Also do not forget that some HGV drivers do not even have a tacho card. As in some jobs it is not a requirement to use them.
If the mate doesn’t work for that firm and therefore wouldn’t drive the vehicle if it becomes necessary, then he doesn’t need to put his card in.
If your giving a lad from work a lift to the garage so he can pick a unit up, then he must insert his card as he would drive that vehicle if it becomes necessary
It is a requirement to record any work you do. It is not written into law you have to use a tacho.
adam277:
It is a requirement to record any work you do. It is not written into law you have to use a tacho.
To repeat a link given above.
gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … raph-rules
“On any day when driving that is in scope of the EU regulations takes place, drivers must use a tachograph to record periods of availability by either:…”
…
“When a tachograph is not available to record data in real time, the only permitted methods for drivers to make a manual entry are to:…”
.
adam277:
stevieboy308:
adam277:
This is often a point of contention here.But to make it clear if your not double manning and your just say picking a mate up who happens to be a HGV driver and dropping him off somewhere.
He does not have to put his card in.
And you are not responsible at all if he decides not to even if he was breaking any rule by but not doing so.I know some people are gonna accuse me of being wrong but I do not care.
Lets say you pick up a hitchhiker. You really gonna ask them if they are a HGV driver to work out if they should put their card in? And they may get fined for not putting their card in even though they have zero intention of driving?
Now, someone may say “well… what if you have a heart attack he/she may be expected to drive” Well at that point anyone may be required to move the vehicle if it is in a life threatening position.Also do not forget that some HGV drivers do not even have a tacho card. As in some jobs it is not a requirement to use them.
If the mate doesn’t work for that firm and therefore wouldn’t drive the vehicle if it becomes necessary, then he doesn’t need to put his card in.
If your giving a lad from work a lift to the garage so he can pick a unit up, then he must insert his card as he would drive that vehicle if it becomes necessary
It is a requirement to record any work you do. It is not written into law you have to use a tacho.
It is written in law that if you’re classed as a driver for the EU regulations then you must use the recording equipment.
The definition of a driver for the EU regulations is anyone who is being carried in a vehicle as part of their employment to be available to drive it if it becomes necessary.
So if you’re getting a lift from a colleague to say go and pick up a car, you have no intention of driving the truck and have been doing holiday cover in the office for the past month, you would be classed a a driver for that lift, so would need to put your card in and have the previous 28 days of records with you
edd1974:
I passed my test in 2012 and didn’t use a tacho card during the lessons.
Not sure instructor did either.
Did 6 hours a day roughly altough we did stop half way though for a coffeAnd how does it work as seen some places giving lessons with 2 pupils sat in there.
Vehicles used for instruction or examination to gain a licence or dcpc are exempt so long as not being used for commercial carriage of goods